Birdwatcher
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Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
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The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
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LakerEagleLover
New member
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
According to my computer rankings, either Plattsburgh or Trinity could have been swapped in for Geneseo, but it the choice of Geneseo was also defensible. There will always be somebody left that makes people wonder. The way to avoid that is to publish the criteria and the weights and forget about having a committee make the decision.
According to my computer rankings, either Plattsburgh or Trinity could have been swapped in for Geneseo, but it the choice of Geneseo was also defensible. There will always be somebody left that makes people wonder. The way to avoid that is to publish the criteria and the weights and forget about having a committee make the decision.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
I can easily see Trinity being swapped-in for Norwich, too.
I can easily see Trinity being swapped-in for Norwich, too.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Utica didn't get screwed, clearly, and no one is saying that they did.
If they had won their extraneous conference tournament I suppose they'd have warranted an official tip of the cap from the D-3 warlocks, but I still would have expected them to be left out... They just didn't win enough games this year.
This is the "screwed" thread. They are more than welcome to post here.
Utica didn't get screwed, clearly, and no one is saying that they did.
If they had won their extraneous conference tournament I suppose they'd have warranted an official tip of the cap from the D-3 warlocks, but I still would have expected them to be left out... They just didn't win enough games this year.
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bakdraft21
Well-known member
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
hate to say it but the last 3 games the Lakers have played AT HOME have not been so hot,even with the Freddy win.Why would you have that feeling? Because they are scorching red-hot having won two games in Plattsburgh and one in Geneseo in the last three weeks?
In all seriousness, the 14 freshmen haven't been freshmen for about 10 games now. I think they are primed to make some noise, but everyone left has earned their place and whoever wins will have earned it.
LakerEagleLover
New member
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Norwich? Et tu, Brute?
CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
Nate LePage, Siena '13
I believe he said that Oz was his #2 in this year's tournament, so he's looking for the lakers to get yet another runner-up performance!
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Prof, I think that a lot of people "get it"... But the RNK criterion is a very dubious construct with a false cliff, and the L25 metric is clearly just plain moronic on its face. (Neither one possesses any intrinsic statistical merit whatsoever, even if D-3 says they do.)
Given the SOS parity in the East, it would be very difficult to massage a plausible scenario that would have Trinity out of Pool C this year... The fact that D-3 managed to get away with jobbing them goes far more to the fact that the selection committee isn't accountable for anything than it has to do with any sort of logic. (The "name" schools always seem to get the bids in that smoky D-3 room, deserved or not, if there is anyway in the world to pull that off.)
It's well overdue for D-3 to make that sort of cynical process legitimate.
Prof, I think that a lot of people "get it"... But the RNK criterion is a very dubious construct with a false cliff, and the L25 metric is clearly just plain moronic on its face. (Neither one possesses any intrinsic statistical merit whatsoever, even if D-3 says they do.)
Given the SOS parity in the East, it would be very difficult to massage a plausible scenario that would have Trinity out of Pool C this year... The fact that D-3 managed to get away with jobbing them goes far more to the fact that the selection committee isn't accountable for anything than it has to do with any sort of logic. (The "name" schools always seem to get the bids in that smoky D-3 room, deserved or not, if there is anyway in the world to pull that off.)
It's well overdue for D-3 to make that sort of cynical process legitimate.
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Just one comment, although (remarkably) I agree with much of what you said here. My point was that I don't think people understand how the reduction in the number of ranked teams and the change away from once ranked always ranked makes a poor metric even worse than it was before. It was never a good metric, but now it is totally unstable (and worse, the last ranking is a secret document).
The other thing to remember, however, is that the metrics and the way they are applied are mandated by the NCAA across all DIII team sports - it is not just the way that it is done in hockey. Changes in the procedure would require that all change their procedures. Committees have discretion in the weights they can apply to each of the criteria, but no discretion as to what criteria that can use.
Just one comment, although (remarkably) I agree with much of what you said here. My point was that I don't think people understand how the reduction in the number of ranked teams and the change away from once ranked always ranked makes a poor metric even worse than it was before. It was never a good metric, but now it is totally unstable (and worse, the last ranking is a secret document).
The other thing to remember, however, is that the metrics and the way they are applied are mandated by the NCAA across all DIII team sports - it is not just the way that it is done in hockey. Changes in the procedure would require that all change their procedures. Committees have discretion in the weights they can apply to each of the criteria, but no discretion as to what criteria that can use.
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Bingo! The committee has the power now to potentially put so much weight on a criteria or set of criteria that they can manipulate the results however they want to. And it's true--like you pointed out--changes like lowering number of ranked teams puts even more subjective power into the committee's hands and further weakens the NCAA guidance.
Bingo! The committee has the power now to potentially put so much weight on a criteria or set of criteria that they can manipulate the results however they want to. And it's true--like you pointed out--changes like lowering number of ranked teams puts even more subjective power into the committee's hands and further weakens the NCAA guidance.
admiral0417
Registered User
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Surprisingly, Trinity was essentially dropped from NCAA consideration after losing in the NESCAC Semi's I've learned from an extremely reliable source. That left Norwich & Plattsburgh vying for the last spot contrary to a lot of folks on here who wrongly thought it was a Norwich OR Trinity. The widely held belief among many Norwich fans that it boiled down to them vs. Trinity (with Plattsburgh not even in the discussion) was dead wrong after all. Now the reason's Norwich prevailed are another story, but I'm over it (kind of).
Surprisingly, Trinity was essentially dropped from NCAA consideration after losing in the NESCAC Semi's I've learned from an extremely reliable source. That left Norwich & Plattsburgh vying for the last spot contrary to a lot of folks on here who wrongly thought it was a Norwich OR Trinity. The widely held belief among many Norwich fans that it boiled down to them vs. Trinity (with Plattsburgh not even in the discussion) was dead wrong after all. Now the reason's Norwich prevailed are another story, but I'm over it (kind of).
The Real Georgia Peach
Registered User
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Well if Trinity got dropped after losing in the Nescac Semis, it would stand to reason that Plattsburgh got dropped after losing in the SUNYAC Semis. Afterall, Trin-Trin was the highest ranked team in the East just prior to that.
Well if Trinity got dropped after losing in the Nescac Semis, it would stand to reason that Plattsburgh got dropped after losing in the SUNYAC Semis. Afterall, Trin-Trin was the highest ranked team in the East just prior to that.
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Plattsburgh DID drop after their semi loss. Why is it so hard to grasp? They lost more win % 19-5-2 = 20-5-0 wash, more sos, lost their ranked team(s) when Williams bounced out (which helped Plattsburgh) and if they added Amherst would have went from .500 to 0-2, dropped more in the last 25%. We saw Plattsburgh drop several spots with one loss. Add in the fact that you saw Babson and Oswego (teams that were ahead) win Pool A so not needed for Pool C. So technically Trinity only dropped from 1 to 4. Hmm amazing, Plattsburgh dropped from 3 to 7 after 1 loss. Who would Plattsburgh drop behind in a week they were idle? Utica? Nope shouldn't have been there to begin with. Williams? They lost. Who would come back in to over take them? Amherst? Lost. UMB? Lost. Bowdoin? Nope. Elmira? Nope. No one. It was down to Norwich and Plattsburgh. Some one tried to argue Geneseo was the last Pool C, but last I check Norwich is traveling to Geneseo this weekend so um yea not.
Plattsburgh DID drop after their semi loss. Why is it so hard to grasp? They lost more win % 19-5-2 = 20-5-0 wash, more sos, lost their ranked team(s) when Williams bounced out (which helped Plattsburgh) and if they added Amherst would have went from .500 to 0-2, dropped more in the last 25%. We saw Plattsburgh drop several spots with one loss. Add in the fact that you saw Babson and Oswego (teams that were ahead) win Pool A so not needed for Pool C. So technically Trinity only dropped from 1 to 4. Hmm amazing, Plattsburgh dropped from 3 to 7 after 1 loss. Who would Plattsburgh drop behind in a week they were idle? Utica? Nope shouldn't have been there to begin with. Williams? They lost. Who would come back in to over take them? Amherst? Lost. UMB? Lost. Bowdoin? Nope. Elmira? Nope. No one. It was down to Norwich and Plattsburgh. Some one tried to argue Geneseo was the last Pool C, but last I check Norwich is traveling to Geneseo this weekend so um yea not.
admiral0417
Registered User
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
There's no shortage of hanky-panky in this most recent edition of the smoke-filled room. I thought Plattsburgh's drop from 3 to 7 based on one loss was extreme to say the least. There was absolutely no "mulligan" given to Plattsburgh unlike several other teams in this year's tournament. Yes, they played Oswego the week before, but that was a regular season game and nothing more. How Trinity drops off the map completely is anyone's guess. Adding in Amherst really makes one wonder. Did the NESCAC final (Bowdoin vs. Amherst) not count? Who does Amherst being added really benefit? Why not UMass-Boston instead?
The more I look at the L25 metric, the more I don't like it. Not because it burned Plattsburgh this year, it's just unfair to let such a small sample be so important. SOme teams were playing excellent and/or hot teams in the last couple of weeks while others played bad teams who had already packed it in. Make it a secondary criteria at best in the future. Had that not been so heavily emphasized this year, Plattsburgh would still be playing.
There's no shortage of hanky-panky in this most recent edition of the smoke-filled room. I thought Plattsburgh's drop from 3 to 7 based on one loss was extreme to say the least. There was absolutely no "mulligan" given to Plattsburgh unlike several other teams in this year's tournament. Yes, they played Oswego the week before, but that was a regular season game and nothing more. How Trinity drops off the map completely is anyone's guess. Adding in Amherst really makes one wonder. Did the NESCAC final (Bowdoin vs. Amherst) not count? Who does Amherst being added really benefit? Why not UMass-Boston instead?
The more I look at the L25 metric, the more I don't like it. Not because it burned Plattsburgh this year, it's just unfair to let such a small sample be so important. SOme teams were playing excellent and/or hot teams in the last couple of weeks while others played bad teams who had already packed it in. Make it a secondary criteria at best in the future. Had that not been so heavily emphasized this year, Plattsburgh would still be playing.
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Amherst didn't get selected. Is that what the sentence above is implying? Their season ended with the loss to Bowdoin.
If you add in Plattsburgh or Trinity, then you must also remove one or two teams. Stevens Point was clearly in as the Pool B entry. The only teams Platts and Trinity were eligible to replace are Adrian, Geneseo or Norwich. Which team do you remove to make room for Platts or Trinity? Plattburgh lost 4 of its last 9 including one to Geneseo. You can't stumble into the tournament. Adrian was a lock with only 2 losses on the year (one of which was to SNC). Trinity couldn't win their conference which by comparison to the SUNYAC was quite week. Trinity's SOS was ranked 46 of 73 DIII schools (Norwich was 25th in SOS and Geneseo was 34th). When you have control of your own destiny don't hand over the reigns to someone else to control it. That is what Plattsburgh and Trinity did. I'm certain they have learned from it.
Amherst didn't get selected. Is that what the sentence above is implying? Their season ended with the loss to Bowdoin.
If you add in Plattsburgh or Trinity, then you must also remove one or two teams. Stevens Point was clearly in as the Pool B entry. The only teams Platts and Trinity were eligible to replace are Adrian, Geneseo or Norwich. Which team do you remove to make room for Platts or Trinity? Plattburgh lost 4 of its last 9 including one to Geneseo. You can't stumble into the tournament. Adrian was a lock with only 2 losses on the year (one of which was to SNC). Trinity couldn't win their conference which by comparison to the SUNYAC was quite week. Trinity's SOS was ranked 46 of 73 DIII schools (Norwich was 25th in SOS and Geneseo was 34th). When you have control of your own destiny don't hand over the reigns to someone else to control it. That is what Plattsburgh and Trinity did. I'm certain they have learned from it.
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: The 2014 Edition of My Team Got Screwed by the Selection Committee Thread
Amherst was selected into the ranking as probably the #8 team when Williams was taken out of the poll.
Norwich
Correct
Norwich
It's last 25% (7) not 9. The last 25 is one criteria, not the only one. It's based on a whole season, which (as has been pointed out) some felt was better (criteria wise) then that of Norwich.
Correct.
Correct, which is why when Williams dropped out (1-1) and Amherst added (0-2) the dropped just as many spots as Plattsburgh did the week before....
It's not Plattsburgh's first time they've left it up to the committee, so I think they are well aware, but make sure you email Emery and see if they've learned from it. The issue is the committee was so inconsistent in their approach and weighted criteria in a "strange" manner to say the least. Then again when you have a Eastern committee made up of former basketball, baseball, tennis and lacrosse coaches that have zero hockey experience and a total of 1 NCAA win outside of Beaney... it only makes sense that it was "strange".