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The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

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Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

ScoobyDoo said:
Can't cut the military budget while you're at war.

Can't boost the failing economy without more tax cuts.

Next.
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You forgot to add:

Can't cut Medicare during a recession when our seniors are at greatest risk.

Can't cut social security ever (the Dems equivalent of the "death panel" card).

Both sides have their sacred cows. And I'm not talking about Michelle Bachmann.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Bob Gray said:
When you look to see if something is rotten, it makes sense to start by looking at its roots. Two words: Margaret Sanger
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Fortunately the people behind all GOP groups are pure as the driven snow.

But please enlighten us as to why PP is "corrupt" and what laws they are breaking. That's the claim that was made and that's what people are wondering about. So it'd be great if you, or Patman or one of your comrades could detail what Planned Parenthood has done that is illegal (beyond a cryptic remark about a name). There must be tons of links to credible sites you can offer to support these claims.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Kepler said:
You forgot to add:

Can't cut Medicare during a recession when our seniors are at greatest risk.

Can't cut social security ever (the Dems equivalent of the "death panel" card).

Both sides have their sacred cows. And I'm not talking about Michelle Bachmann.
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Social Security has been cut in the past.

Health Care is always slashed during a recession. It's happening ALL OVER the country right now.

We've NEVER raised taxes during a recession, and we've NEVER cut the military budget during a war.

Ryan's plan takes all this into account.

Next.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Kepler said:
Of couse, whenever we yell at our Congress we're yelling at ourselves. Our politicians are irresponsible because we are. But I believe we are irresponsible in large part because we're just too big -- there's no way to make common cause and share common sacrifice with 300 million other people, most of whom don't look or think like us -- unless we think there's an actual gun pointed at us. So we're left thinking of the whole thing as a giant game where we have to grab ours because everybody else is grabbing theirs. And even in those rare cases where we might do the right thing, the elephant in the American room, large corporate capitalism, means our reps will be bribed into keeping the trough open anyway.
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And this is why I am such an advocate of going back to the original federalist framework of the country. We should have a Federal gov't who's powers are limited and defined, wheras the states' power is undefined with few limits. This would allow people more control over the gov't they lived under. Its much easier to leave a state than it is to leave the country.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

MinnFan said:
And this is why I am such an advocate of going back to the original federalist framework of the country. We should have a Federal gov't who's powers are limited and defined, wheras the states' power is undefined with few limits. This would allow people more control over the gov't they lived under. Its much easier to leave a state than it is to leave the country.
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I'm of two minds on federalism. On one hand there's your argument which I respect, and I wish I could wholeheartedly buy it. But there are two problems:

(1) large business interests are national if not multi-national, and it's hard enough keeping them in check even with federal power. Few states (essentially, NY and CA) have the ability to protect the public interest against the natural predations of the largest corporations. Making everything local just means they can pick off any state law they don't like one at a time using their much greater firepower.

A pure federalist system's analog would be limiting each business to collecting revenue in only one state.

(2) having no national standard on a thing equals driving all states to the minimal standard. "You won't let me pollute your lakes? Fine, I'll move to Mississippi where they'll let me pollute their lakes (and I don't have to deal with darkies at my lunch counter)."

Again, a pure federalist system's analog would be splitting all national companies into 50 competing companies ("if you license us to do business in your state, we won't pollute your lakes.").

I think federalism has a place where it can benefit people and create genuine "laboratories of democracy." But it can also be used as an end-run around real regulation, undercutting everybody (which is why it's such a big hit at CPAC every year). It is appropriate with some things, not all.

Political structures are man-made, not divinely-decreed. There is really no reason why the Framers' conception of government has to be exactly mimicked today, as long as we stay within Constitutional bounds. The Framers owned people, didn't let the skirts vote, had no internal combustion engines, and 90% of the population was small-holding farmers. We have to respect our laws, but we can't just mindlessly fetishize 1776 -- those days are long, long gone.
 
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Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Priceless said:
Fortunately the people behind all GOP groups are pure as the driven snow.

But please enlighten us as to why PP is "corrupt" and what laws they are breaking. That's the claim that was made and that's what people are wondering about. So it'd be great if you, or Patman or one of your comrades could detail what Planned Parenthood has done that is illegal (beyond a cryptic remark about a name). There must be tons of links to credible sites you can offer to support these claims.
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Another dodge. Again, I don't blame you. It's a pretty grisly history.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Bob Gray said:
Another dodge. Again, I don't blame you. It's a pretty grisly history.
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He's asking you for specifics on what PP has done that's illegal, neither you nor Patman will talk specifics, and you call him a dodger? What the heck is he dodging exactly? Answering questions asked of you?
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Kepler said:
OK, I'll buy that and I retract.

One thing about the initial election that people forget, however. Reagan took 50.7% popular vote. He didn't have the sort of runaway popularity he achieved later in his term. IIRC (and I may not) he skyrocketed after the shooting and never came back down.
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on this chart of "approval ratings", it looks like an Obama-style trajectory of a gradual slide from 60 to 40% over his first two years, then an equally gradual slide back up. He didn't achieve his initial popularity levels of his first election until after his re-election.
Not sure if there's a better metric for this.
Obama can hope to follow. I think he still has a chance to do so.

(in other words, it doesn't appear that getting shot had any affect on his popularity)
 
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Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

geezer said:
Obama can hope to follow. I think he still has a chance to do so.
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Except Obama's got a ceiling of about 60% -- at that point he would essentially have a popularity of 100% with everyone who won't hate him no matter what he does, for reasons which are not entirely clear but are maybe not pleasant.

Even though the Great Divide was pretty solid during Clinton, Willie did not have the same problem. Maybe because he had the "lovable rogue" thing, whereas Obama is just the guy who effed the curve in your con law class so the hell with him.

Reagan was always a nice guy who seemed like he would have risen to his Peter Principle level as a decent baseball color commentator, say, 15 years before that given moment. Plus he had Roger Ailes during his PR -- it's really hard to beat that.

And Reagan had a GREAT sense of humor, which among presidents only he and Clinton have had since... jesus... since LBJ. Dubya was the kid who eats his own snot in Caddyshack, Bush Senior and Carter were blue noses, Ford... right, Nixon pulled the wings off flies... we haven't done well with having presidents who would be good on a first date.
 
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Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Rimbaud said:
He's asking you for specifics on what PP has done that's illegal, neither you nor Patman will talk specifics, and you call him a dodger? What the heck is he dodging exactly? Answering questions asked of you?
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I raised the issue of PP's very checkered past. Both of them avoided addressing the point I raised. Pretty simple really.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Bob Gray said:
In fairness, we have no idea what an Obama plan will be, as he's never put one out there to date. I seriously hope he brings some good and serious ideas to the table. I'm not optimistic, but if he does, I'll give him major kudos.
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You may owe him those kudos.

(I'll believe it when I see it, but if both Kos and The Weekly Standard come out against his plan, I'll support it.)
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Kepler said:
HCR was pretty ballsy. I don't buy the "he's not brave enough" thing.
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It was? In whose eyes? It changed almost nothing, in fact the only reason it was a big deal at all was because the GOP pretended it was. If they hadnt been screaming socialism and fighting it like a 5 year old eating broccoli no one would have cared. No single payer, no public option, just the ability to now make it illegal for someone to not have insurance, provided by the same con men insurance companies that provide it now. Yes we got a tradeoff in that now they have to accept pre-existing conditions but beyond that HCR only changed the status quo minutely. I dont think putting forth Bob Dole's plan from 1996 is ballsy at all, it is bending over and once again letting the GOP dictate.

Ballsy would have been sticking to single payer in the hopes of the public option as a compromise. That is the art of negotiation. Not Obama...he doesnt even fight back when someone calls him a liar during the State of the Union :rolleyes:

If Obama is so strong how has he not repealed DADT when Admirals and Generals are saying it is time?

Obama is a 95 pound weakling and is now the perfect representation of everything that is wrong about the Democratic Party. He may as well be their mascot because he personifies them now. Such a waste.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Handyman said:
Obama is a 95 pound weakling and is now the perfect representation of everything that is wrong about the Democratic Party. He may as well be their mascot because he personifies them now. Such a waste.
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The GOP has been trying to kill social security for sixty years. Would you say every GOP president during that time has been "weak"?

Even getting HCR to a vote was a monumental achievement. Every Dem president had tried it since Truman, and every one had failed. All the right's braying about socialism did nothing with the health care debate because everybody knows that's the chord the GOP strums about everything. Obama got it done by being able to keep the Dems from folding, and the Dems have folded plenty of times before. Ergo, Obama isn't the weakling the Kossites want to portray him as; he may be as shifty a dealer as Clinton was but without constantly drawing attention to it "hey, didja see that deal I just made? Now come on and give us a big kiss, darlin'...").

Passing any form of HCR broke the glass ceiling and means the US will eventually have a real national health care program just like every other non-stone-age country. It's breath-taking that people can take that achievement and just spit it back. It took quite a lot of doing to give enough Dems the cover to get it done -- probably the hardest thing any president has had to do since Bush Senior broke ranks with his base, raised taxes, and started the move towards budget balance.

AND the coolest part is although Obama did do that and took the political hit, he may still be re-elected which Bush couldn't pull off. That would make him ballsy and effective.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Bob Gray said:
I raised the issue of PP's very checkered past. Both of them avoided addressing the point I raised. Pretty simple really.
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They can't avoid what they don't know about! They're asking for you to supply documentation of PP's very checkered past as all you're saying is that they have one. There's a large possibility that they're not familiar with PP's forays into the immoral and illegal, so it's up to you to show them (and it's not that hard for you to do it). It's not a hard concept to understand. So post some links so they can see the past of PP, and then you can watch them dodge that info. If you're too lazy to google a link for your own argument, why would someone else do it?
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Kepler said:
You may owe him those kudos.

(I'll believe it when I see it, but if both Kos and The Weekly Standard come out against his plan, I'll support it.)
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Is that a light at the end of the tunnel?
Regarding the offhand remark about "preparing the spare bedroom for grandma" if Medicare is cut... I still don't think people fully appreciate how far in debt we are. That is exactly the sort of thing we're looking at returning to, and it'll do us all good to face up to it. Does everyone need to own a house? Does every teenager need an iphone? Of course not. Needs vs. Wants, people.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Kepler said:
The GOP has been trying to kill social security for sixty years. Would you say every GOP president during that time has been "weak"?

Even getting HCR to a vote was a monumental achievement. Every Dem president had tried it since Truman, and every one had failed. All the right's braying about socialism did nothing with the health care debate because everybody knows that's the chord the GOP strums about everything. Obama got it done by being able to keep the Dems from folding, and the Dems have folded plenty of times before. Ergo, Obama isn't the weakling the Kossites want to portray him as; he may be as shifty a dealer as Clinton was but without constantly drawing attention to it "hey, didja see that deal I just made? Now come on and give us a big kiss, darlin'...").

Passing any form of HCR broke the glass ceiling and means the US will eventually have a real national health care program just like every other non-stone-age country. It's breath-taking that people can take that achievement and just spit it back. It took quite a lot of doing to give enough Dems the cover to get it done -- probably the hardest thing any president has had to do since Bush Senior broke ranks with his base, raised taxes, and started the move towards budget balance.

AND the coolest part is although Obama did do that and took the political hit, he may still be re-elected which Bush couldn't pull off. That would make him ballsy and effective.
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Are you actually Chris Mathews? Wipe the drool of your chin. Apparently Obama truly is an angel sent to lead us through the wilderness :rolleyes:

Obama is going to get re-elected because the GOP has no one. If they had a conservative version of Clinton he would be voted out faster than you can say Mondale.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Bob Gray said:
I raised the issue of PP's very checkered past. Both of them avoided addressing the point I raised. Pretty simple really.
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Wow. Patman makes allegations that Planned Parenthood is corrupt and guilty of conducting illegal (not immoral - illegal) business. We ask for documentation because we aren't aware of these alleged illegalities and you say we're dodging. Dodging what exactly? You and Patman aren't telling us what we're dodging. You haven't raised any points for us to dodge!
 
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