The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[Patman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Things would crash faster than you can say 1929. The world would see the resigning of the president, ANY PRESIDENT, in the midst of a crisis like this as a complete sign that the US has failed and the reaction would be bad. Investors would sell of US debt for pennies on the dollar, foreign interests would take their money out of any American business, domestic investors would sell everything they got and pull their money out of the banks...it would be mass chaos. The run on the banks alone would make the AIG fiasco look like some podunk bank in central bumphuck Missouri went under.

I didn't realize Joe Biden running the show would be that bad. So, what is it that you're arguing here? That the people who control the levers would admit that they don't know how to control the levers? I suppose in that it would be really bad... you don't want the mask to come off... you need people committed in the belief in order to perpetuate the system. If they turn around and actually say the truth in some manner then I'm sure you could see some shocks as the mental and societal dissonance comes to term. As long as they don't, however, we are free to believe the dissonance.

On the other hand if we're arguing that "the smartest man couldn't solve it, we're doomed" then that's really stupid... it would be at best fear mongering, and at worst demagoguery.

The fact we're being lead by the nose by the PERCEPTION of competence is rather disturbing. Its not the actualization of competence we're worried about... its more important than we've convinced ourselves than for it to be true. More and more I get the feeling that our societies are FAR more built on ethereal social fabric than it is on truth, science, and progress.

This the problem with large governments and large systems... especially when it becomes more of a reliance in faith than a reliance in fact.

 

[Patman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

No offense, but if you think we can just replace oil, you simply don't know all that much about it. If we suddenly stopped consuming oil, we would have to invent it. Literally. There is no substitute that even comes close to oil in so many regards. We have yet to invent anything that comes close to oil. The tag phrase ' technology and business innovation' these days is limited to financial products, information, social media and other worthless crap. We won't invent our way out of our thirst for oil...

We've had this go around before with 5mn... I believe I've had to point out that there's physical limits to computation/computers as well. Most of the last decade has seen innovations in communications... and that's about it. Its that eventually you have to come to terms with our on finite ability to provide... and then you realize that all the "free" in the world can't be had just by the gradual gears of progress. Add to that, our chattering classes have been envisioning a broad swath of moral restrictions on our economy and use of technology. We can't just hope to construct improvements in that environ. Its just plain ignorant to what it takes to engineer success in the first place... it doesn't matter how many Harvard grads you throw at a system. If it can't work, then it can't work... we keep expecting that we're capable of magic if the resources and stars align correctly. We've made a great number of gains in the last century of work... but you can always place enough restrictions to make things fail... look at Soviet society... their system placed enough restrictions that they failed just on technical grounds... nevermind the rest of the slate of failures inherent. Place enough societal, technical, eco, financial, bureaucratic, or other roadblocks in the way then we will just as surely not improve... no matter how much we pine for it.

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

When you speak of alternatives, I hope you aren't just talking about gasoline... I'm not sure if you're aware of this but oil is used for more than just gas.

In fact, to even suggest that the oil industry would be hammered because some alternative takes off is ridiculous. The sheer variety of chemicals and products produced by petroleum is more than you could ever imagine.

True, but significantly curtailing the demand for petroleum based fuels for transportation would significantly reduce the size of the industry. Plus, if the alternative energies are liquid fuels, the chemical industry will devise a way to use the cheapest feedstock available.

The oil industry wouldn't go away but the scope and size of the industry will be reduced.

 

[walrus]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Bank of America must be "too big to fail"
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/10/bank-of-americas-back-door-tarp/

Anybody who has money in that bank must be smoking their breakfast

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I didn't realize Joe Biden running the show would be that bad. So, what is it that you're arguing here? That the people who control the levers would admit that they don't know how to control the levers? I suppose in that it would be really bad... you don't want the mask to come off... you need people committed in the belief in order to perpetuate the system. If they turn around and actually say the truth in some manner then I'm sure you could see some shocks as the mental and societal dissonance comes to term. As long as they don't, however, we are free to believe the dissonance.

On the other hand if we're arguing that "the smartest man couldn't solve it, we're doomed" then that's really stupid... it would be at best fear mongering, and at worst demagoguery.

The fact we're being lead by the nose by the PERCEPTION of competence is rather disturbing. Its not the actualization of competence we're worried about... its more important than we've convinced ourselves than for it to be true. More and more I get the feeling that our societies are FAR more built on ethereal social fabric than it is on truth, science, and progress.

This the problem with large governments and large systems... especially when it becomes more of a reliance in faith than a reliance in fact.

Your act grew tired months ago...you are on the level of Old Pio and 5mn Major to me, so guess what you get to join them on the ignore list!

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

This the problem with large governments and large systems... especially when it becomes more of a reliance in faith than a reliance in fact.

Exactly. Rome will burn.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

More and more I get the feeling that our societies are FAR more built on ethereal social fabric than it is on truth, science, and progress.

You just summed up FauxNews lemmings to a t.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

In fact, to even suggest that the oil industry would be hammered because some alternative takes off is ridiculous. The sheer variety of chemicals and products produced by petroleum is more than you could ever imagine.

Uhh...not even close.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

What is the basis of that chart? Energy consumption? BBLs? *yawn*

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

What is the basis of that chart? Energy consumption? BBLs? *yawn*

Does it really matter? As things stand, over half of the oil used in the US goes to transportation. If, suddenly, tomorrow an alternative that could cheaply and easily replace oil was discovered it would hammer the oil industry. The fact is that the development of alternative liquid fuels would cause the oil industry to contract, but the shift will be sufficiently slow enough that they will have plenty of time to adapt and adjust.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Does it really matter? As things stand, over half of the oil used in the US goes to transportation. If, suddenly, tomorrow an alternative that could cheaply and easily replace oil was discovered it would hammer the oil industry. The fact is that the development of alternative liquid fuels would cause the oil industry to contract, but the shift will be sufficiently slow enough that they will have plenty of time to adapt and adjust.

They've already begun to position themselves for peak oil. Where do you think they're spending the bulk of their non-exploratory research money? Alternative fuels. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the oil companies are on par with the government in research money towards alternative energy as a percentage of total expenditures.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

# A CNN/Opinion Research poll shows just 14% of voters approve of Congress's job performance, while 84% disapprove -- both records.
# A CBS/New York Times poll has similar numbers -- 14% approve and 82% disapprove of Congress' job performance, the latter an all-time high.
# A Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll puts Congress' approval even lower -- 10%. That's a drop from 20% in late June.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-congress-polls-20110812,0,4415193.story?track=rss

14%? How on earth does ANY incumbent get reelected? Anyone who votes for an incumbent should have their vote taken away. I'm kidding! I think...

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If, suddenly, tomorrow an alternative that could cheaply and easily replace oil was discovered it would hammer the oil industry.

You may as well wish for teleportation devices as for cheap, easy alternatives to oil. It is not going to happen. Deal with it, or be prepared for major disillusionment someday. There is no point in even a hypothetical discussion of a cheap alternative to oil.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

You may as well wish for teleportation devices as for cheap, easy alternatives to oil. It is not going to happen. Deal with it, or be prepared for major disillusionment someday. There is no point in even a hypothetical discussion of a cheap alternative to oil.

This. I was going to also suggest the elimination of friction.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

You may as well wish for teleportation devices as for cheap, easy alternatives to oil. It is not going to happen. Deal with it, or be prepared for major disillusionment someday. There is no point in even a hypothetical discussion of a cheap alternative to oil.

This.

Fuel efficiency in imports went from 29.9 MPG in 2006 to 35.1 MPG in just 4 years. It looks like alternatives to oil are underway...and never is a long, long time.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Doubt that. Every year, hybrids and the like are growing...and never is a long, long time.

Hybrids aren't even a truly vetted technology. No one knows what the batteries are going to do in the long run. Not only that, but the production of these batteries involves quite a bit of mining and a metric crap ton of hazardous by-products. Hybrids aren't the answer and they sure as hell aren't a plus in the pocketbooks of consumers. This has been demonstrated time and time again.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Fuel efficiency in imports went from 29.9 MPG in 2006 to 35.1 MPG in just 4 years. It looks like alternatives to oil are underway...and never is a long, long time.

The fact that you're using an increase in MPG (as in, miles per GALLON OF GASOLINE) as an indication that something other than gasoline is on the horizon is stunningly hilarious. All that does is stretch out the timeline of the existing petroleum supplies. Big deal.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The fact that you're using an increase in MPG (as in, miles per GALLON OF GASOLINE) as an indication that something other than gasoline is on the horizon is stunningly hilarious. All that does is stretch out the timeline of the existing petroleum supplies. Big deal.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I didn't even see that post. HAHAHAHA!

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

You may as well wish for teleportation devices as for cheap, easy alternatives to oil. It is not going to happen. Deal with it, or be prepared for major disillusionment someday. There is no point in even a hypothetical discussion of a cheap alternative to oil.

Did you even read the rest of my post? The development of alternative liquid fuels will be sufficiently slow enough that the oil companies will have plenty of time to adapt and adjust: they are already headed towards being energy companies as dxmnkd316 said. No assurances that the center alternative energy production will be located where the center of petroleum production (AK, TX and the gulf coast) is today. Which is how this whole line of discussion started: any shift towards alternative fuels will hurt the economies of the current oil producers the same way that the increase in sales of import cars hurt Detroit's economy while helping areas in the south the built assembly plants for Toyota and Honda (and others).

I understand better than most that the oil industry isn't going anywhere and that as large, established multinational corporations that they are in an excellent positions to adapt to any changes and prosper even as the supply of oil decreases and the push towards alternatives grows.

I think that we can all agree that 5MM has no idea what he is talking about.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Interesting that so few people approve but they are acting the way they are because they are afraid of challenges in the primary. My first thought after reading the percentages from Fox is how are they spinning that one with the majority being the GOP?