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The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

There you go jumping to extremes. There are rightful purposes and uses for government. But there are also excesses. I said "less" not "no".

I don't think anyone out there with a straight face can say there's no waste, mispurposing, or graft in government.

So, what would you cut?

I don't think anyone out there with a straight face can say there's no waste, mispurposing, or graft in private businesses.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I don't think the economists were advocating spending their way out. We have debt. Revenue pays down debt. Eventually the expansion would provide more revenue but the thing that confuses me is if you have all those cuts, no increase in revenue how a we in the short term going to decrease debt. Less jobs = les tax revenue, less spending so we go further in the hole. How is this going to help us? When does the result of increased revenue happen?

I thought I was the only one not firmly stuck in the tax or cut corner.

This kind of thing always fascinates me. I always wonder if there couldn't be a way that we could have people who don't want to pay into the pot/would rather have less sign a wavier and not access all those perks like police, firefighters, EMS, schools, Soc security, Medicare, subsidized gas prices, food prices, etc. This would make a great reality game on FB like Farmland.
If we have big time cuts, which we really need to make any significant progress in reducing the overall debt, theoretically the private sector will have more confidence in the government, firms will expand and hire more people, and the tax base should expand producing more revenue. But this also implies the government will keep out of the way (i.e. we need better regulation, not more regulation) and not make it so difficult for small businesses in particular to start-up/grow/make a profit.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So, what would you cut?

I don't think anyone out there with a straight face can say there's no waste, mispurposing, or graft in private businesses.

Defense and entitlement programs.
We're not going to solve this problem by nipping at corporate jet depreciation and money for PBS.
We've dug a big hole. The first step to getting out of it is to put down the shovel and quit digging.

Regarding private business, private business operations, unless I own it, isn't my business. If I do own it, I make it efficient and work to get rid of waste, fraud, and abuse or else I'm probably going out of business. (I save my employer big money on electrial expenses and new equipment last year by showing how existing computer hardware could be multi-tasked. That was good private business.)

However, I'm part owner of government so I expect folks to want to, to work to, eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse.
 
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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Defense and entitlement programs.
We're not going to solve this problem by nipping at corporate jet depreciation and money for PBS.
We've dug a big hole. The first step to getting out of it is to put down the shovel and quit digging.

Regarding private business, private business operations, unless I own it, isn't my business. If I do own it, I make it efficient and work to get rid of waste, fraud, and abuse or else I'm probably going out of business.

However, I'm part owner of government so I expect folks to want to, to work to, eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse.

So you don't want to cut the waste and inefficiency in the government because they are not enough? That seems silly.

You are part owner in any company you have stock in, you think all of these are perfectly efficient and all of their employees are passionate about remaining at 100% efficiency?
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If we have big time cuts, which we really need to make any significant progress in reducing the overall debt, theoretically the private sector will have more confidence in the government, firms will expand and hire more people, and the tax base should expand producing more revenue. But this also implies the government will keep out of the way (i.e. we need better regulation, not more regulation) and not make it so difficult for small businesses in particular to start-up/grow/make a profit.

Why would any company expand if the demand does not exist to justify that expansion? Businesses in America are sitting on TRILLIONS in cash, they could start hiring tomorrow if they wanted to. The demand just isn't their to make them want to expand. Cutting government spending isn't going to do anything to bolster overall demand, if anything it will shrink it.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

However, I'm part owner of government so I expect folks to want to, to work to, eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse.

Taxes do need to go up. We're in deep and the sooner we get action the better. S&P and others agree.

I think most would agree with you statement. The problem is nearly everyone has their own pet projects. If there was something universially disliked, it would be cut. For myself, I think Defense gets cut first, and the last thing I think this country needs cut is education...due to international competitiveness.

I put stats up here last week that showed how the vast majority of the Tea Party didn't want any cuts on their stuff...mainly medicare and soc security.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Taxes do need to go up. We're in deep and the sooner we get action the better. S&P and others agree.

How about excise tax. relabel (VAT or sales tax) clearly we need more revenue and Republicans (including tea party) might go for "equal" taxation on everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise_tax_in_the_United_States
During the Great Depression (1929-1939) President Franklin Roosevelt and Congress started reintroducing excise taxes to increase federal income which had dropped because of the much lower income tax collections. On December 5, 1933 the 21st Amendment was ratified and alcohol production became legal again. The healthy excise tax on now legal alcoholic beverages paid about one-third of all federal taxes during the Great Depression.

The individual income tax has consistently provided nearly half of total federal revenue since 1950, while other revenue sources have waxed and waned. Excise taxes brought in 19 percent of total revenue in 1950 but only about 3 percent in recent years. The share of revenue coming from the corporate income tax dropped from about one-third in the early 1950s to less than one-sixth in 2008. In contrast, payroll taxes provided more than one-third of revenue in 2008, compared with just one-tenth in the early 1950s.

Numbers_Figure-2_What-are-federal-govt-sources-of-revenue_1.gif
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

There you go jumping to extremes. There are rightful purposes and uses for government. But there are also excesses. I said "less" not "no".

I don't think anyone out there with a straight face can say there's no waste, mispurposing, or graft in government.
I didn't say there weren't excesses. Unfortunately you can't rely on people to do the right thing, police themselves, and consider others. It is a fact of life that every bit of the waste, mispurposing and graft are beneficial to someone. So what we look at is the most powerful will keep their perks and the least powerful will not. It has nothing to do with cutting deep enough that everyone will suffer. People who buy their votes with those perks will not let them be cut.

If we have big time cuts, which we really need to make any significant progress in reducing the overall debt, theoretically the private sector will have more confidence in the government, firms will expand and hire more people, and the tax base should expand producing more revenue. But this also implies the government will keep out of the way (i.e. we need better regulation, not more regulation) and not make it so difficult for small businesses in particular to start-up/grow/make a profit.
They might have more confidence but the people who are out of jobs and safety nets will not be spending cash. The expansion will take time. Even when the numbers were better in our state the last few months companies held on to their cash and did nothing. People who are in those jobs that are cut aren't going to go out there and find other work pronto- look at the unemployment rates. They probably will also not be the people that the private sector are hiring. They will be tightening their belts and cutting what they spend. Who is going to buy the product the private sector is producing?

The way I see it we had massive over consumption of frivolous stuff that was financed on credit. There are parts of the market that aren't going to recover simply because they should never have been at that level to begin with. Not necessary for everyone to have plasma TVs, Humvees, and designer everything. Realistically not everyone should be buying a house. Not everyone should be going to college (don't howl, I didn't mean that only the elite should go, only that kids who don't have the apptitude shouldn't be pushed into it because it is the thing to do). We needed as a society to have a contraction of what we were spending on. Unfortunately that means there are going to be people who are out of work no matter what. Now we are going to add to that natural contraction by cutting things that are legitimate and still pretend we can pay stuff off without paying the piper a bit more. I can't see the logic.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Why would any company expand if the demand does not exist to justify that expansion? Businesses in America are sitting on TRILLIONS in cash, they could start hiring tomorrow if they wanted to. The demand just isn't their to make them want to expand. Cutting government spending isn't going to do anything to bolster overall demand, if anything it will shrink it.
Do you think it's only a function of demand? Sure businesses are sitting on a lot of money, but they have to do planning if they hope to survive for long and more importantly to make a profit. With Congress writing humongous laws like Health Care Reform that are filled with provisions and regulations that don't even kick in for a couple of years, businesses (especially smaller ones that can't afford a bunch of corporate lawyers) are dealing with a lot of uncertainty. It's safer for them to hold tight for now and wait and see how things shake out before investing that money to hire new people and expand. It's not strictly a demand issue.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Do you think it's only a function of demand? Sure businesses are sitting on a lot of money, but they have to do planning if they hope to survive for long and more importantly to make a profit. With Congress writing humongous laws like Health Care Reform that are filled with provisions and regulations that don't even kick in for a couple of years, businesses (especially smaller ones that can't afford a bunch of corporate lawyers) are dealing with a lot of uncertainty. It's safer for them to hold tight for now and wait and see how things shake out before investing that money to hire new people and expand. It's not strictly a demand issue.

While I understand that businesses hate regulation and (excessive) uncertainty in the future, at the end of the day if the demand doesn't justify hiring more workers then the business isn't going to hire more workers. If hiring more workers would increase profits, more workers would be hired regardless of everything else. If businesses were operating at full capacity, I would agree with you, but they are not because the the current levels of demand just does not justify adding more workers and they are not going to lower profits out of the kindness of their hearts to hire additional workers.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Andrew Mellon knew something about economics and government ...

Government income from taxation went up after the reduction.

Ah yes, the Laffer Curve, a favorite of the GOP. If you think we're on the wrong side of the apex with the lowest tax rates since WWII...I've got a bridge to sell you.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Ah yes, the Laffer Curve, a favorite of the GOP. If you think we're on the wrong side of the apex with the lowest tax rates since WWII...I've got a bridge to sell you.

Not for long, though. We cut taxes so much that most of the bridges are going to fall into the rivers. The rich will be fine. They'll use their tax cut to fly from place to place.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The Dems in Wisconsin have probably flipped 2 of the 3 Senate seats they'd need to take control in tonight's 6 recall elections. They currently lead in a 3rd, however 10 precincts remaining are from Waukesha County, home of that incompetent or corrupt county clerk Kathy Nicklaus, and no votes have been received from there in two hours. She must be looking for votes in the cushions of her couch again.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Not for long, though. We cut taxes so much that most of the bridges are going to fall into the rivers.
Exactly how much more was the government spending on repairing the infrastructure when the revenue situation was good? My guess is not much if any. Repairs don't secure votes the way that new spendy projects do.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Exactly how much more was the government spending on repairing the infrastructure when the revenue situation was good? My guess is not much if any. Repairs don't secure votes the way that new spendy projects do.
Can't speak for other states but our area has been a beehive of infrastructure construction from the stim pkg- bridges, road repair, intersection/lights etc. Can't drive anywhere without running into it.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Exactly how much more was the government spending on repairing the infrastructure when the revenue situation was good?

The federal gas tax was last raised in 1993, and is not adjusted for inflation. In real terms (inflation adjusted dollars), we're taking in about 1/3rd less than we were in 1993.

Think we'd have better highways and maybe even the beginings of a worthy rail system if we were spending 150% of what we currently are?
 
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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The Dems in Wisconsin have probably flipped 2 of the 3 Senate seats they'd need to take control in tonight's 6 recall elections. They currently lead in a 3rd, however 10 precincts remaining are from Waukesha County, home of that incompetent or corrupt county clerk Kathy Nicklaus, and no votes have been received from there in two hours. She must be looking for votes in the cushions of her couch again.

Dems came up short. Not taxing job creators has been validated.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Dems came up short. Not taxing job creators has been validated.
And the Wisconsin economy was enriched by millions and millions of dollars spent (in a large part) by non Wisconsinites.

Was it worth it?
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

And the Wisconsin economy was enriched by millions and millions of dollars spent (in a large part) by non Wisconsinites.

Was it worth it?

Nope, though only in politics can you lose 2 seats and still call it a victory...
That said, the Dems probably should've held off and simply saved all their ire for Walker in January. This has to take some of the steam out of those sails.
 
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