The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

While I do think there are a LOT of bad teachers being protected by labor unions, my primary point of contention is with how the public sector labor union system works: Labor union/government entity approve exclusive CBA giving no-bid contract to said labor union. CBA mandates membership and union dues for all employees working under said agreement. Union dues are used to support campaigns of preferred union-friendly candidates. Aforementioned union-friendly politican is elected to office. Said politician sits across bargaining table from labor union while supposedly representing the taxpaying public. Politician votes in favor of labor-friendly contracts, the stipulations of which in numerous cases are currently bankrupting municipal governments. More money flows to the labor unions in the form of wages, benefits and pensions. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's blatant corruption of the most disgusting kind.

FYI: It is FAR more than $50k when you figure in wages, benefits and pension......not to mention that most teachers less than 3/4 of a year.

First of all...you must HATE how Big Business runs...if you think unions are corrupt you aint seen nothing yet. (your little scenario wouldnt even begin to cover it) So can we expect you to be railing on how Big Business and Wall Street needs to be reigned in and brought down a few pegs? Will you fight against the Talking Points? (dont worry, if you go into a MinnFann like idiotic rant abotu how Big Business is not the same because the country cant live without them so they deserve to have the ear of Washington unlike Unions who actually represent the people working in this country, we wont judge you too harshly)

If teachers that are paid 50k (which btw is no teacher I know, they are in the low 40s on the high end but that was around the national average I saw so I wont dispute the number) actually make close to 80k then the job creators that make 250k (who would have better pensions and way better benefits not to mention better tax breaks!) actually make over 400k? I can see where that would totally be a rough life.

Those ****ed unions...sucking the life force out of the blue collar job creator!!

 

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I was the first to graduate from college in my family. But both of my parents knew right away that it was their goal as parents to send their children to college. I remember being groomed from a young age to be an engineer (literally before 1st grade). I was reading on my own around 3.5-4 years old. It wasn't difficult stuff. Mainly Boxcar Children. I can trace ALL of this back to when my dad read to us before we went to bed. But he made sure we would be able to read the pages while he was reading. That way we were able to pick up reading very early. Reading led to being able to do math. That led to being able to understand science. Both of those led to engineering.

I missed this connection

I must say that the disconnect here is amazing! Here we are being lectured that a quality education is necessary to get ahead in the world while the candidates for the GOP nomination tell us anyone with a college degree (especially from those bastions of liberalism in the Ivy League) are elitist snobs, that teachers who have the audacity to make $50,000/year AND get health benefits are wealthy (yet a hedge fund manager who clears $1B is a poor, burdened man), that all the scientific data behind climate change is an elaborate hoax and that Evolution is "just a theory." Gee, I can't imagine why kids get the idea that education doesn't matter.

I imagined this spoken like the guy who used to do the Fed Ex ad. It made me laugh.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the higher ups in the church were none too happy with some of those scientists, right?

Plus, how many huge discoveries today are made by Christians vs Atheists? Oddly enough, though, many religious higher ups are still none too happy with scientists. At least they're consistent.

and about 1 page more of dialog I didn't quote....
Talking about "the Church" and lumping all the faithful under that label would be like lumping all teh US citizens under Pres. Obama or Pres. Bush. There would be a lot of howling. It isn't accurate. I am a person of faith but I find most of the people who are currently in the forefront of attention (on the conservative right) to be saying some of the most unChristian things regarding their opponents and views of other human beings in general. I wonder if they read the same Bible I do.

 

[Bill]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

You don't think a 26% change in taxes is a big difference (17/23)?

Also, where have you seen a 20% proposal? And no, a single post from freerepublic.com does not count.

It was quite some time ago. Doing some checking, I think it was Dick Armey's plan although I see that he proposed starting it off at 20% and then dropping it to 17 after a couple of years. The Hall-Rabushka plan has it at 19%. You used the word "grossly" in saying the flat/fair ax rates were too low. I don't consider 19 (or even 17) to be a "gross" difference from 23.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Many of those scientists who made huge discoveries were Christians. Newton wrote more on Christianity than on science. That's not a good road for you to go down.

How many of those huge discoveries are based off their religion? Do you also attribute such things to Newton being European? White? What writing by Newton about xtianity are still even considered today? Do you understand the logical fallacy you're making? Do you understand the words written in front of you?

 

[Tundra]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

It was quite some time ago. Doing some checking, I think it was Dick Armey's plan although I see that he proposed starting it off at 20% and then dropping it to 17 after a couple of years. The Hall-Rabushka plan has it at 19%. You used the word "grossly" in saying the flat/fair ax rates were too low. I don't consider 19 (or even 17) to be a "gross" difference from 23.

Not sure if these numbers are correct, but if personal income is $12.5trillion 20% tax rate (=$2.5t).

http://bber.unm.edu/econ/us-tpi.htm

U.S. $12,530,101,184 $12,168,161,000 $12,380,225,000 $11,900,562,000 $11,256,516,000 $10,476,669,000 $9,928,790,000
Alabama 162,249,225 157,324,279 158,696,556 151,999,031 144,462,607 135,636,293 128,019,513
Alaska 31,373,946 30,182,295 30,562,542 28,107,577 26,303,621 24,617,331 23,070,366
Arizona 223,716,314 219,026,704 223,961,131 218,587,551 206,958,398 188,152,439 170,026,128
Arkansas 96,663,183 93,373,894 93,480,735 89,312,492 82,918,067 77,475,378 73,719,848
California 1,605,790,116

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

During FY 2010, the federal government collected approximately $2.16 trillion in tax revenue. Primary receipt categories included individual income taxes (42%), Social Security/Social Insurance taxes (40%), and corporate taxes (9%).[8] Other types included excise, estate and gift taxes.

For example, tax revenues declined from $2.5 trillion in 2008 to $2.1 trillion in 2009,

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I don't consider 19 (or even 17) to be a "gross" difference from 23.

Do the math. The difference may not be "gross" but it certainly would be obvious.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I don't consider 19 (or even 17) to be a "gross" difference from 23.

If your paycheck changed by 26% overnight, that wouldn't be a big difference to you? Seriously?

And that's assuming a change from 23 to 17...the change from 17 to 23 is a 35% difference - think people wouldn't notice if their tax bill jumped by 35%?

 

[Tundra]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

In 2007 corporate income tax was 14% of total treasury revenue. In 2010 9%. It seems as a % share of GDP/income etc.. corporate tax revenue has been dropping for decades. And yet their profit is at record levels.

we have the 4th highest corporate tax rate but one of the lowest tax receipt in developed countries. loopholes? deductions? credits? tax breaks? tax shelters?

American businesses earned profits at an annual rate of $1.659 trillion in the third quarter, according to a Commerce Department report released Tuesday. That is the highest figure recorded since the government began keeping track over 60 years ago,

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/b...chasing-corporate-profits-off-the-charts.html

The new figures indicate that corporate profits accounted for 14 percent of the total national income in 2010, the highest proportion ever recorded. The previous peak, of 13.6 percent, was set in 1942 when the need for war materials filled the order books of companies at the same time as the government imposed wage and price controls, holding down the costs companies had to pay.

In the first quarter of 2011, the latest figures available, the new estimates indicate corporate profits accounted for 14.2 percent of national income, well above the 13.1 percent that had previously been estimated.

The news is not so good for smaller enterprises. The government category for many such businesses, known as proprietors and partnerships, is based on the type of tax returns filed, and is not completely accurate because some large enterprises file partnership tax returns while some smaller ones file as corporations. But it is generally used as a proxy for small business.

The latest figures indicate the smaller businesses’ share of national income fell to a 17-year low of 7.7 percent in 2009, but recovered to 8.3 percent in 2010 and in the first quarter of this year.

 

[joecct]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If your paycheck changed by 26% overnight, that wouldn't be a big difference to you? Seriously?

And that's assuming a change from 23 to 17...the change from 17 to 23 is a 35% difference - think people wouldn't notice if their tax bill jumped by 35%?

1% to 2% is a 100% jump.

As for the corporations, use GAAP and all the BS special breaks in the tax code are gonzo. But then give the corps a 5 year write down of the tax liability on the books on the difference between book and tax income.

 

[Tundra]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

1% to 2% is a 100% jump.

As for the corporations, use GAAP and all the BS special breaks in the tax code are gonzo. But then give the corps a 5 year write down of the tax liability on the books on the difference between book and tax income.

I used to think I wanted flat tax, til I realized what a mess it could become. See: (flat) corporate tax rate. So I'm for simple(r) tax code instead.
Maybe we could collect more taxes from corporations with "flat" rate of 25% with less loopholes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/business/economy/03rates.html

The United States may soon wind up with a distinction that makes business leaders cringe — the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Topping out at 35 percent, America’s official corporate income tax rate trails that of only Japan, at 39.5 percent, which has said it plans to lower its rate.

The paradox of the United States tax code — high rates with a bounty of subsidies, shelters and special breaks — has made American multinationals “world leaders in tax avoidance,” according to Edward D. Kleinbard

equal to 1.3 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product. Most industrial countries collect more from companies, about 2.5 percent of output

Assorted proposals being discussed in Washington call for the rate to be lowered officially to about 25 percent and some tax breaks to be eliminated so that revenue remains unchanged.

 

[Bill]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If your paycheck changed by 26% overnight, that wouldn't be a big difference to you? Seriously?

And that's assuming a change from 23 to 17...the change from 17 to 23 is a 35% difference - think people wouldn't notice if their tax bill jumped by 35%?

I'm not saying that difference is insignificant. You originally said flat tax proposals "grossly" understated what the true rates would have to be according to real economists. Granted that grossly doesn't have a specific meaning in terms of size, but as I've heard it commonly used over the years, I don't consider 23 to be a grossly larger number than 17 or 19. And who's to say that Friedman's rate of 23 isn't actually higher than it would need to be. Don't you think that the 19% or 17% rates also were also developed by economists? None of us "know" that the 19% or 17% rates are too low (or high), or that the 23% rate is too high (or low), because we don't have a flat tax where we can see the reality.

 

[Goon]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Do the math. The difference may not be "gross" but it certainly would be obvious.

Good point, if your tax rate went up from say 17 or 19 to 23 percent I doubt that person is going to say, I gee I hardly miss that money.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Good point, if your tax rate went up from say 17 or 19 to 23 percent I doubt that person is going to say, I gee I hardly miss that money.

For someone earning $50k per year, their take home would be reduced from $41,500 to $38,500. Certainly significant, but hardly catastrophic.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

For someone earning $50k per year, their take home would be reduced from $41,500 to $38,500. Certainly significant, but hardly catastrophic.

So you would agree then that someone who espouses a 17% (like Steve Forbes) or 15% plan (like the group of Senators a few years back) significently undersold what the actual rate would have to be, if we assume Friedman's flat rate was realistic?

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

For someone earning $50k per year, their take home would be reduced from $41,500 to $38,500. Certainly significant, but hardly catastrophic.

In that case, you should have no problem giving me $3000. I'd prefer cash, but a check will do. I'll send you my address in rep.

 

[Goon]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

For someone earning $50k per year, their take home would be reduced from $41,500 to $38,500. Certainly significant, but hardly catastrophic.

YEAH, what's an extra $230.00 being stolen from us every month by the federal government.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So you would agree then that someone who espouses a 17% (like Steve Forbes) or 15% plan (like the group of Senators a few years back) significently undersold what the actual rate would have to be, if we assume Friedman's flat rate was realistic?

I don't have a dog in that fight, and I don't care about the semantics of whether it was "undersold" or "significantly undersold." Have that discussion on your own...

In that case, you should have no problem giving me $3000. I'd prefer cash, but a check will do. I'll send you my address in rep.

Did you spend $50 on groceries last week? Why didn't you send it to me? What a bizarre response.

YEAH, what's an extra $230.00 being stolen from us every month by the federal government.

They're already stealing it from our grandchildren. I'd prefer to balance the budget NOW, and if the means that would get it done is a 23% flat tax, then I'd be fine with that.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I missed this connection

Reading the numbers on a page... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. This allows you to add by one. Then you can go to two, etc. Eventually reading leads to more complex mathematics which requires a written explanation.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Tweaks, not removal of current system for one that apparently can't really be justified without saying "try it I bet it works".

This.

 

[duper]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I think most city jobs are union (or association). (police/fire/teacher etc..)
looks like teachers received 2-3% automatic raise in this 3 year contract. compared to 4-7% raises in 2005-2010 period. That makes sense we had our housing (property tax increase) boom late compared to lower 48. And it really hasn't dropped at all (-5% at most).

raises.http://www.asdk12.org/depts/hr/contracts/AEA/examples.asp

There was a flak several years ago from Fire chief making the highest state salary (including overtime 350k/yr?). Compared to Fire/Police teachers might be underpaid, although if you look at hours worked etc.. it might not be true.

Looks like starting wage was around $36k in 2005 ending at $46k in 2010 with masters/ (step21) $68k start and ending at $79k with automatic raises by 2010.



http://articles.ktuu.com/2010-04-26/teachers-union_24127541

This doesn't really answer my question. When I ask whether school districts are typically union shops, what I mean is, do teachers normally HAVE to join the union. I imagine all (or very close to it) public school districts have unions negotiating for them. But in every case I have been part of, whether or not you join that union is up to you.