Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

[Bob Gray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Trent Dilfer didnt screw up either, does that make him better than Brady or Manning? Rob Johnson? It is too much of a team sport to hang that on the QB. Maybe those guys didn't make mistakes because they didnt have to take as many risks. Doesn't saying that Bradshaw could hand off all day and only need to make a play here and there kind of defeat your own argument? If Manning just handed off all day and made a play here or there do you think the Broncos are in the Superbowl?

True. Bradshaw was a good quarterback, but those Steeler teams were so good that he didn't have to bear nearly the burden a lot of other quarterbacks have to bear to get their team the win. You stick Bradshaw on a lesser team and he's nowhere near this conversation. Some quarterbacks are good enough to carry their team a good bit toward winning. I don't see Bradshaw at that level. When you watched those Steeler games, you weren't nearly as riveted to seeing what Bradshaw would do, simply because he wasn't the focal point of those Steeler teams the way other QBs are on their teams.

 

[jmh]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Sorry but I'm not buying this Peyton Manning best ever stuff. At the end of the day, winning matters which I feel is a concept lost on Statsnerd Nation.

Quarterbacks throw passes. Teams win games. Saying "Brady beat Manning," as if they were ever competing directly against one another, is sophomoric, lazy analysis.

 

[mookie1995]

True. Bradshaw was a good quarterback, but those Steeler teams were so good that he didn't have to bear nearly the burden a lot of other quarterbacks have to bear to get their team the win. You stick Bradshaw on a lesser team and he's nowhere near this conversation. Some quarterbacks are good enough to carry their team a good bit toward winning. I don't see Bradshaw at that level. When you watched those Steeler games, you weren't nearly as riveted to seeing what Bradshaw would do, simply because he wasn't the focal point of those Steeler teams the way other QBs are on their teams.

SB 13&14 were won on bradshaw's arm

If you ask me on definitive Bradshaw SB throws I think of the rover throw below, and stallworth in 14
Brady? The safety . (And the welker throw that dried up Gis's twat!)

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

SB 13&14 were won on bradshaw's arm

If you ask me on definitive Bradshaw SB throws I think of the rover throw below, and stallworth in 14
Brady? The safety . (And the welker throw that dried up Gis's twat!)

Bradshaw played a more significant role in those Super Bowls, but there was a whole lot more to those wins than just his arm.

 

[Jon]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

As that noted football philosopher Herm Edwards once said ... "You play to win the game". NOT "you play to fill out your stat sheet so someone can win their fantasy league".

I enjoy that line so much. I love football, but it's really the most popular professional sport around because of Madden video games, gambling and fantasy leagues. Let's not kid ourselves...

 

[Rover]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

I enjoy that line so much. I love football, but it's really the most popular professional sport around because of Madden video games, gambling and fantasy leagues. Let's not kid ourselves...

The problem is nobody remembers who won back a few bucks from their bookie when they gambled right on a game, or who won their fantasy league or Madden one night in their mom's basement. EVERYBODY remembers great players making great plays.

 

[Rover]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

True. Bradshaw was a good quarterback, but those Steeler teams were so good that he didn't have to bear nearly the burden a lot of other quarterbacks have to bear to get their team the win. You stick Bradshaw on a lesser team and he's nowhere near this conversation. Some quarterbacks are good enough to carry their team a good bit toward winning. I don't see Bradshaw at that level. When you watched those Steeler games, you weren't nearly as riveted to seeing what Bradshaw would do, simply because he wasn't the focal point of those Steeler teams the way other QBs are on their teams.

I disagree somewhat. Bradshaw did what he was asked to do, a rare quality that most QB's would sulk over. If you asked him to do more during a season, he would have. I do remember watching to see if he'd pull the game out in the end. He did on some big occasions. He couldn't have just gotten lucky in 4 superbowls 2 of which against one of the best teams of all time. Facing a lot less pressure than the Dallas defense, Manning has wilted multiple times. I'll throw out there that perhaps Bradshaw was a far better QB than he was allowed to be given the other assets the Steelers had. Put Brady in those SB's as well and who doesn't think he makes an ill advised pick or gets happy feat as soon as he hears footsteps next to him?

 

[Jon]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

The problem is nobody remembers who won back a few bucks from their bookie when they gambled right on a game, or who won their fantasy league or Madden one night in their mom's basement. EVERYBODY remembers great players making great plays.

I have coworkers and friends from college who would totally remember those things. I'm with you, I remember great plays in the real world.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

You're subscribing to the exception proves the rule argument. Trent Dilfer, like Rob Johnson, is an anomaly. I'd say Joe Flacco is too. Now look at the SB winners who are HoF'ers (or will be). Starr, Bradshaw, Staubach, Montana, Young, Favre, Brady, Elway, etc etc.

Manning has an inability to take over a game against good teams. His only Super Bowl victory was against one of the worst teams to ever make it that far. Also his teams in Indy were far more complete than his supporters like to remember. They had a great pass rush and the safety won defensive player of the year one year. He also had a good running game to back him up. Manning's problem is ill advised picks. That's by and large his fault, much like he never should have heaved that pass with someone in his face that got run back for a Pick 6 in this SB. He's basically Dan Marino only if Marino got to play a tomato can like the '06 Chicago Bears in the Super Bowl instead of going up against a dynasty in SF.

I'm not at all subscribing to the exception proving the rule. I'm telling you that you are completely ignoring the team aspect of the game. As of today, is Russel Wilson a better QB than Manning? Or did he play on the far better team? You list Elway in your list of greats, but let's not forget he was once 0-3 in Superbowls. Did he get better or did the team around him?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

I disagree somewhat. Bradshaw did what he was asked to do, a rare quality that most QB's would sulk over. If you asked him to do more during a season, he would have. I do remember watching to see if he'd pull the game out in the end. He did on some big occasions. He couldn't have just gotten lucky in 4 superbowls 2 of which against one of the best teams of all time. Facing a lot less pressure than the Dallas defense, Manning has wilted multiple times. I'll throw out there that perhaps Bradshaw was a far better QB than he was allowed to be given the other assets the Steelers had. Put Brady in those SB's as well and who doesn't think he makes an ill advised pick or gets happy feat as soon as he hears footsteps next to him?

That's the challenge in discussing all these quarterbacks. They only played on the given team(s) and situations they had. Could Bradshaw have carried a team the way some other QBs have? We'll never know. I tend to think not, but that's just my best guess. You put Brady or Manning on those Steeler teams, and I'd tend to think those teams would have been even better, but again, that's just my guess. Sometimes you just have the right QB on the right team and it's a good fit.

To me, the Steelers were good enough that most games it didn't matter what Bradshaw did, including him throwing basically as many picks over his career as TDs. But, that Steeler defense was so good that few of his picks were turned into points going the other way.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

The problem is nobody remembers who won back a few bucks from their bookie when they gambled right on a game, or who won their fantasy league or Madden one night in their mom's basement. EVERYBODY remembers great players making great plays.

Ah... I remember that Sterling Sharpe pretty much single handedly won me my first fantasy bowl championship in what would be the final game of his career against Tampa. The following year Jerry Rice did the same for me although his career would continue.

This was 94 & 95 respectively. I quit fantasy football sometime shortly after that and have zero interest in it whatsoever at this point and for the past 15 years or so.

But I still remember those details.

 

[jericho]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Let's give it up for Super Bowl winning quarterback...Tarvaris Jackson!

 

[Rover]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

I'm not at all subscribing to the exception proving the rule. I'm telling you that you are completely ignoring the team aspect of the game. As of today, is Russel Wilson a better QB than Manning? Or did he play on the far better team? You list Elway in your list of greats, but let's not forget he was once 0-3 in Superbowls. Did he get better or did the team around him?

Russell Wilson's career has just started, so we have no idea how he will play out over time. Elway would have been thought of much worse as a QB had his career ended at 0-3. What he gets credit for is beating what we all thought was a great Packers team which enhanced his legacy. Manning is going to rightfully be thought of as a guy who's only SB win was against a bad Bears team.

Teams do win or lose, so look at the actual games. I'm not going to hang Staubach for putting 31 up against the Steelers, which doesn't include a guy dropping a wide open pass in the end zone. That's a helluva accomplishment. Manning however threw two soul crushing Pick-6's in his two losses. That's his fault. Brady missed about 20 wide open receivers in his losses. That's his fault. Neil O'Donnell threw two picks to a journeyman corner where there was no receiver within 20 miles of where he was passing to. That's a QB directly blowing the game. No one player affects a game as much as the QB nowadays.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

That's the challenge in discussing all these quarterbacks. They only played on the given team(s) and situations they had. Could Bradshaw have carried a team the way some other QBs have? We'll never know. I tend to think not, but that's just my best guess. You put Brady or Manning on those Steeler teams, and I'd tend to think those teams would have been even better, but again, that's just my guess. Sometimes you just have the right QB on the right team and it's a good fit.

To me, the Steelers were good enough that most games it didn't matter what Bradshaw did, including him throwing basically as many picks over his career as TDs. But, that Steeler defense was so good that few of his picks were turned into points going the other way.

Neither Manning nor Brady can throw the long ball like Bradshaw could. Neither Swann nor Stallworth were the classic possession-type receivers you see in the game nowadays. They ran a ton of downfield routes. The Steelers' tight ends (i.e. Grossman, Cunningham, etc.) were not exactly dynamic pass receivers either. And the backs (Harris, Fuqua and Bleier) were decent but not great receivers. It's definitely a case of the "right fit" as you point out, and Bradshaw was that guy for that team. A Bradshaw to Randy Moss over the top would have been an absolute circus. As far as the INT stats vs. TD's, there were more of the former and less of the latter back then, and it's because of the widespread rule changes, all of which have enabled the passing game at the expense of all else.

And let's not forget that all three of Brady's SB wins came when he was playing with a top-notch defense loaded with leader/character guys and playmakers, and when he was the one widely viewed as the prototype play-it-safe system QB. I think there is a temptation for Pats' fans to transport Brady's current leadership role and graft it onto those earlier teams. And there was also an awful lot more handing off to Antawn Smith, Corey Dillon and Kevin Faulk back then too.

FWIW Manning's only SB victory came during the season when Bob Sanders also won the AFC Defensive Player of the Year, no?

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Russell Wilson's career has just started, so we have no idea how he will play out over time. Elway would have been thought of much worse as a QB had his career ended at 0-3. What he gets credit for is beating what we all thought was a great Packers team which enhanced his legacy. Manning is going to rightfully be thought of as a guy who's only SB win was against a bad Bears team.

Teams do win or lose, so look at the actual games. I'm not going to hang Staubach for putting 31 up against the Steelers, which doesn't include a guy dropping a wide open pass in the end zone. That's a helluva accomplishment. Manning however threw two soul crushing Pick-6's in his two losses. That's his fault. Brady missed about 20 wide open receivers in his losses. That's his fault. Neil O'Donnell threw two picks to a journeyman corner where there was no receiver within 20 miles of where he was passing to. That's a QB directly blowing the game. No one player affects a game as much as the QB nowadays.

It will be interesting to see how Wilson's career develops from here. As a late-round draft pick from a Big Ten school, and as a second year QB winning his first SB with a victory "managed" behind the great performance of his team's defense against the alleged greatest offensive juggernauts of their respective eras, he has some common ground with another QB being discussed actively on this thread.

Roger Staubach was the transformative figure for the Cowboys, who had developed the tag "Next Year's Champions" as a derisory term after two last second losses in the NFL title game to the Packers' dynasty in '66/'67 with Don Meredith at the helm, and fell short in the playoffs (and in SB V) behind Craig Morton before Staubach took over, and won SB VI with a rout over a Miami team that would next go undefeated in 1972, and themselves win two SB's in a row. Staubach won two SB's in four tries, having run into the Steelers' dynasty but performing admirably nonetheless. Keeping in mind the years he lost to the service after graduating from the USNA, and then at the end of his career due to concussions, it is not difficult to imagine Staubach having amassed anywhere between at least one, and maybe as many as three more SB titles.

And he's not the only multiple SB winning QB from Dallas who had their career cut short by injuries and concussions ...

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Regarding the interceptions and touchdowns, yes, the numbers tended to be closer to one another back then, but even taking that into account, Bradshaw's numbers are poor.

Further, Bradshaw holds the record in the modern era for the worst touchdown to interception ratio for a full season in 1970, when he had 6 TDs and 24 INTs (there was a guy back in 1942 that had a slightly worse ratio).

He was even voted All-Pro only once in his career (1978).


The Colts defense for Manning was good, but it isn't even within shouting distance of The Steel Curtain, one of the best ever.

 

[Rover]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

The Colts defense for Manning was good, but it isn't even within shouting distance of The Steel Curtain, one of the best ever.

Yes, but Manning never had to face a team as good as the Cowboys of the 70's. He faced an awful Bears team, a good Saints team and a good Seattle team, but not one of the best teams of all time.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

You're subscribing to the exception proves the rule argument. Trent Dilfer, like Rob Johnson, is an anomaly. I'd say Joe Flacco is too. Now look at the SB winners who are HoF'ers (or will be). Starr, Bradshaw, Staubach, Montana, Young, Favre, Brady, Elway, etc etc.

Manning has an inability to take over a game against good teams. His only Super Bowl victory was against one of the worst teams to ever make it that far. Also his teams in Indy were far more complete than his supporters like to remember. They had a great pass rush and the safety won defensive player of the year one year. He also had a good running game to back him up. Manning's problem is ill advised picks. That's by and large his fault, much like he never should have heaved that pass with someone in his face that got run back for a Pick 6 in this SB. He's basically Dan Marino only if Marino got to play a tomato can like the '06 Chicago Bears in the Super Bowl instead of going up against a dynasty in SF.

I tend to agree with you, but just wanted to give this though...Favre's only victory was over one of the worst Super Bowl teams ever. However, Favre got his moment (the long TD pass then taking off his helmet...plus it was essentially in his backyard). Interestingly, the two QBs that have lost the most playoff games in the history of the sport? Favre (11) and Manning (12). To me, Favre and Manning are quite similar historically (obviously about as different as QBs get from other (every other?) standpoints). They both put up a ton of numbers. They both won a lot of games. Yet they both make/made critical mistakes at extremely poor times. When you're in the conversation amongst maybe the best 10-15 QBs of all time, those are the type of plays that separate the "greatest ever" from simply "hall of famer."

 

[Rover]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

I tend to agree with you, but just wanted to give this though...Favre's only victory was over one of the worst Super Bowl teams ever. However, Favre got his moment (the long TD pass then taking off his helmet...plus it was essentially in his backyard). Interestingly, the two QBs that have lost the most playoff games in the history of the sport? Favre (11) and Manning (12). To me, Favre and Manning are quite similar historically (obviously about as different as QBs get from other (every other?) standpoints). They both put up a ton of numbers. They both won a lot of games. Yet they both make/made critical mistakes at extremely poor times. When you're in the conversation amongst maybe the best 10-15 QBs of all time, those are the type of plays that separate the "greatest ever" from simply "hall of famer."

Agree completely on Favre. His ESPN boosters would never admit it, but that team should have won a lot more Super Bowls than it did. Manning is very similar to Favre. That Pats team wasn't very good although in Favre's defense it was probably better than the '06 Bears. Favre's inability to win more counts against him when compared to the Montana's for the world, regardless of his regular season achievements.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Of course Favre didn't win more Super Bowls. He didn't have FootballJesus Rodgers on his team.