St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyond?

[Muskieman]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

Why would you be happy for him???? He is making a big mistake. Granted he is a talent and has potential, however, the number of players that will ultimately reach the NHL is miniscule and the odds of two of them doing it together, are probably more than one in several hundred million.
You know and others know that Matt has a lot of skills that need a lot of work yet. Another year or two at SLU working with the likes of Hurly and Carvy would benefit him greatly. His brother has a SLU degree to fall back on should the dream not come to fruition. Matt should/would benefit from the same. If it goes down....it is Matt's loss, not ours.

Said it before, will say it again. The odds of them playing together, at the same level are probably pretty slim. (unless we are talking about developing in the ECHL.) I also think (not sure why) but my instincts tell me packaging themselves would limit their options as opposed to enhancing them.

If this does go down. It will make a lackluster hockey season all the more dreary. It would also take away quite a bit of the optimism I had for next years team.

Guess I was trying to be diplomatic and chose bad wording. My initial reaction to this news about Matt is not printable here. Will leave it at that.

 

[TimU]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

But if he stayed in college and then tried for a hockey career that fizzled out, he would be in exactly the same position - age ~30 with a college degree and no experience just starting his "real" career, so there's really no relative opportunity cost. Additionally, if he tries hockey first, then when he goes back to college he can be 100% focused on school without the hockey distraction, so he'll probably build a better resume for his real career. Finally, the flip side is that if he delays jumping for 3 years, his potential NHL career might be shorter (due to age) which could be considered an opportunity cost of staying in college. Along with the possibly increasing your chances of sticking in the NHL by staying in college, there's also the risk of a career-ending injury while in college - many factors to consider.

I was (definitely) not fortunate enough to be blessed with the right combination of athletic and academic skills to ever have had to make this decision, so I've never been in his shoes, but it seems awfully presumptive for anyone to say that it is *definitely* a bad decision to take the bird in hand rather than hoping for a marginally higher chance of getting a better bird three years from now.

The difference is, by staying you increase your odds of being successful in the NHL (assuming you're not ready yet and need more development, which is the premise of the argument in this case). By jumping, you decrease those odds AND delay your career. You don't eliminate risk or potential opportunity costs, but you put the odds more in your favor while getting a good education while you're young. I agree it's not the same for everyone, but the argument here is basically that Matt Carey is not Phil Kessel. Or Greg Carey for that matter.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

You're also tacitly relying on the assumption that players develop (statistically significantly) better in college than they do in the minors. Anecdotally, lots of players have succeeded and failed to make the NHL via both options - I certainly don't have the data to support or refute the assumption; just thought it should be stated clearly.

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

The difference is, by staying you increase your odds of being successful in the NHL (assuming you're not ready yet and need more development, which is the premise of the argument in this case). By jumping, you decrease those odds AND delay your career. You don't eliminate risk or potential opportunity costs, but you put the odds more in your favor while getting a good education while you're young. I agree it's not the same for everyone, but the argument here is basically that Matt Carey is not Phil Kessel. Or Greg Carey for that matter.

That’s right Tim. I’d put it another way. To jump to pro hockey, or any career for that matter, when you are not ready carries the substantial risk that your star will plummet to earth really fast. These are precarious times in the NHL with some organizations in real flux with major regime changes such as Buffalo and Florida and potentially others. If you go, you don’t make it, there are not a lot of second chances. Rich Peverley is one of the rare guys that kept moving up and getting chances at the next level. Many guys who leave early or sign after graduation can’t break through the ceiling and then are labled. Not many organizations go fishing for the next big talent in the ECHL, they’ll go right back to the NCAA and look for the best free agents. I mean, look again at Brandon Dietrich. Signed by one regime, another regime took over and effectively his pro hockey career was torpedoed. Moreover, how many guys go back to school? Derek Gustafson is probably pumping gas somewhere after he signed for a lot of money after one year with the Wild. He spent a lot of time playing for Alaska in the ECHL. I think the smart play is to stay in school which gives you more options and where you have a staff that is committed to your development because if they fail developing you they fail at the job. In the pros if they fail at developing you they can just say it’s you and throw you on the garbage heap. Greg should make it. He is deadly as a shooter and has shown he can be a playmaker too. But even this is no lock. The argument you make LynahFan is a great argument for the OHL for the 18 year old prospect. Also, I’d add that skill development and life lessons are learned in college where there is a lot more practice time and fewer games. Finally, look across the board, there are many hockey alums making more per year from SLU Hockey in investment banking there the guys who are in the NHL. I can guarantee you their careers will be longer. I wouldn’t be quick to flush the degree, the alumni network and other positives for what is basically a tryout. Sure there is guaranteed money, and that may be enough for some people, but I’d be telling my kid to stay because you never know what other doors may open up while you are playing the odds.

 

[hockeyplayer1015]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

All good points and discussion. Something I will add, and probably not a surprise, but a good article nonetheless.

http://t.co/o2oYXmvc1h

Obviously the nhl is a business, and if you aren't the flavor of the month, they'll quickly find another flavor. More so at the lower pro levels. Matt would likely get much more individual training from Carvey and Co. by staying. Carvey obviously knows what to look for to develop to the next level.

 

[slu fan]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

Just heard from a pretty good source that Greg has signed with the Minn. Wilds. Matt hasn't accepted their offer as of yet.

 

[critsports]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

Just heard from a pretty good source that Greg has signed with the Minn. Wilds. Matt hasn't accepted their offer as of yet.

We wish him the best wherever he winds up.

You're also tacitly relying on the assumption that players develop (statistically significantly) better in college than they do in the minors. Anecdotally, lots of players have succeeded and failed to make the NHL via both options - I certainly don't have the data to support or refute the assumption; just thought it should be stated clearly.

Been busy working for a living and haven't had the opportunity or time to look here or even post.

I think the points you raise are very valid and I respect your opinion and view. However.....I would like to add that my guess (and it is pure speculation) is that of those who do jump, and take the bird in hand.....and it does not pan out......what percentage of those do you think take the cash and use it to return to college? I'm guessing that number is way lower than we might think. Again...don't have the data to support it but my common sense tells me the majority do not/will not go back.

I remember a conversation a few years back that involved Joe Marsh and Louie Leblanc. Joe could just not understand/accept a kid turning down a Harvard education. So far it hasn't worked for Louie either and that is my main point in the earlier post. For the vast majority of these wonderful kids who are really great athletes. The reality is it doesn't work out for most of them.

When I did look at the website and links for Cap Geek it is really scary the gap between the NHL and AHL contracts. One could easily see the allure of the NHL contract even at entry level. But boy...if you don't get there....and if the AHL is that low....imagine what the other lesser attractive leagues are like.

 

[joecct]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

And there is always Europe. For a 20 something single living in Europe and getting paid for it can be an educational adventure.

 

[hockeyplayer1015]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

And there is always Europe. For a 20 something single living in Europe and getting paid for it can be an educational adventure.

I remember talking to Bill Reid (father of Matt), and he was saying what a great opportunity it can be playing over there. Often, housing is paid for, sometimes they even take care of transportation.

 

[Kepler]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

I remember a conversation a few years back that involved Joe Marsh and Louie Leblanc. Joe could just not understand/accept a kid turning down a Harvard education.

Or a degree, anyway. A lot of hockey players have a far different educational experience than the typical student. It doesn't have to be the SEC for them to skate through. It's not basketball, they're functionally literate, but a majority of hockey players probably get no better an education than say a typical business major at a state university -- nothing to sneeze at and useful for a resume, but also not the rosy-tinted devotion to the arts or science that we see in NC$$ PR.

And then again there's Joe Juneau, who IIRC was an aeronautics engineer and built a freaking plane in his garage for fun. It's possible to get a real education, but it's also possible to be what we in the requirements biz call "barely minimally compliant."

There's probably no bigger supporter of the traditional liberal arts or the old school education on this forum than I, but if given the choice I'd take the money and the contract, try my luck in the pros, then circle around and use the wealth to get a loan-free education. College is precious, and the money gives you the ability to study out of love rather than just animal training for an income. To me taking the money is a win/win.

 

[Got 6 Want More]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

Or a degree, anyway. A lot of hockey players have a far different educational experience than the typical student. It doesn't have to be the SEC for them to skate through. It's not basketball, they're functionally literate, but a majority of hockey players probably get no better an education than say a typical business major at a state university -- nothing to sneeze at and useful for a resume, but also not the rosy-tinted devotion to the arts or science that we see in NC$$ PR.

And then again there's Joe Juneau, who IIRC was an aeronautics engineer and built a freaking plane in his garage for fun. It's possible to get a real education, but it's also possible to be what we in the requirements biz call "barely minimally compliant."

There's probably no bigger supporter of the traditional liberal arts or the old school education on this forum than I, but if given the choice I'd take the money and the contract, try my luck in the pros, then circle around and use the wealth to get a loan-free education. College is precious, and the money gives you the ability to study out of love rather than just animal training for an income. To me taking the money is a win/win.

Well, I throw this out there. Every single guy I have talked to who has played pro has said playing college was way more fun. Some, like Drew Bagnall, described pro hockey as bewildering. You skate this area of the ice, you don't pinch, you don't shoot, you don't lug the puck, you play the system or else you don't play. I am an advocate of the college hockey experience and I don't think that the experience (at least at SLU) is much different than the average student. Hell, in 2000, SLU had a hockey player that was 1st in the class with Kris Margherio. That's why CHL is even a worst choice because if you are not ready for the next step at 21 your are out of options other than Canadian university. To me it is even money. At best Matt will end up in the AHL IMHO and making $70,000 and what is the full scholarship to SLU worth?? About $70,000, with the promise of a lot more. I can count on one hand the guys I know who regret their college experience for many reasons. If he was ready, I'd say he has to take the money. Since he is not ready, nor at the same level of player Greg is, I'd say stay.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

I think the points you raise are very valid and I respect your opinion and view. However.....I would like to add that my guess (and it is pure speculation) is that of those who do jump, and take the bird in hand.....and it does not pan out......what percentage of those do you think take the cash and use it to return to college? I'm guessing that number is way lower than we might think. Again...don't have the data to support it but my common sense tells me the majority do not/will not go back.

Sure, but that's their choice - if someone has a few hundred K in his pocket and chooses not to go back to get a loan-free degree, how much value would that person really have gotten out of spending time at college before playing pro hockey? That's a sincere question - such a person is clearly not that serious about education (or even diplomas), independent of anything to do with hockey or money. There are 100s of thousands of people willing to go into serious amounts of debt to attain a college education, and this person won't bother to pay for it with the cash in his pocket? Good riddance - save that spot for someone who appreciates it and wants it more.

 

[Spaceman]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

Hey LynahFan, with all due respect why don't you go chirp over in the Cornell Forum and encourage your players, who aren't ready yet, to leave school and go pro. Frankly Matt can do whatever he wants to do. Most people's points here is that, in their opinion, he still has development and learning to do here at this level. He can become a better player and make more money by staying for another year.

 

[LynahFan]

Hey LynahFan, with all due respect why don't you go chirp over in the Cornell Forum and encourage your players, who aren't ready yet, to leave school and go pro. Frankly Matt can do what ever he wants to due. Most people's points here is that, in their opinion, he still has development and learning to do here at this level. He can become a better player and make more money by staying for another year.

My apologies.

OUR SKATING SAINTS ARE ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!!1!1. (except the one who make different decisions than I would, in which case they are clearly dumb and shortsighted)

Better?

 

[Saints#1]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

My apologies.

OUR SKATING SAINTS ARE ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!!1!1. (except the one who make different decisions than I would, in which case they are clearly dumb and shortsighted)

Better?

Much better ... Goodbye!

 

[bcarlisle]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

Maybe M. Carey just doesn't like going to school. He was a redshirt for ..er academic eligibility reasons. He's 22 and looking at waking up for classes until he's 25. That might easily cause me to take a fat check to give my dream a shot. It must take an average graduate 10-15 years to gross a total of $1 million. It sucks as a fan but its hard to blame him although i would not want anything to do with trying to crack the Blackhawks lineup as a goal scorer.

 

[CollegeHockeyRinkReport]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

Maybe M. Carey just doesn't like going to school. He was a redshirt for ..er academic eligibility reasons. He's 22 and looking at waking up for classes until he's 25. That might easily cause me to take a fat check to give my dream a shot. It must take an average graduate 10-15 years to gross a total of $1 million. It sucks as a fan but its hard to blame him although i would not want anything to do with trying to crack the Blackhawks lineup as a goal scorer.

You know unless he makes the NHL he will never make $1M in his pro hockey career in AHL right?

 

[hockeyplayer1015]

You know unless he makes the NHL he will never make $1M in his pro hockey career in AHL right?

How do you figure that?

Yann Denis of Brown lore made $600,000 in '12 and '13 combined (275k and then 325k.).

 

[critsports]

Re: St. Lawrence University 2013-2014: Carey, Carey, carry us to Placid ... And beyon

Maybe M. Carey just doesn't like going to school. He was a redshirt for ..er academic eligibility reasons. He's 22 and looking at waking up for classes until he's 25. That might easily cause me to take a fat check to give my dream a shot. It must take an average graduate 10-15 years to gross a total of $1 million. It sucks as a fan but its hard to blame him although i would not want anything to do with trying to crack the Blackhawks lineup as a goal scorer.

Entirely possible. Good observation. However where the degree comes in and the SLU connections (like any good University) are the last 20-30 years of your income and the doors/connections that open up for you from those connections. A good example is the pro golfer Matt Kuchar. Most people don't know after College at Ga. Tech (I think) he went to work on Wall Street and played as an amateur. He was going to stay an amateur as he was making so much money on Wall St. he didn't want to turn pro. Doubt that will happen to most players who skip college to go to play pro hockey.

You know unless he makes the NHL he will never make $1M in his pro hockey career in AHL right?

Bravo......and therein lies my point I have been trying to make all day. The MAJORITY of players who jump....and this has been particularly true of the ECAC players I have followed, follow this path when signing. Perhaps at the end of the year sign an ATO for an AHL team, go to camp....maybe stick a year or less in the AHL, wind up in the ECHL or another league for a few years....really want to hang on and maybe give Europe a shot, and, then, finally retire having never cashed in on that pot of gold at the end of the NHL rainbow.

Re-reading all of these posts there is a funny pattern. Maybe it is a sub rosa agenda we all have that Spaceman a.k.a. Tayt touched upon. All of us SLU fans/alums want and feel Matt should stay. All of the visitors seem to support him grabbing the brass ring while he can. So maybe the real agenda is we SLU fans value and covet and will miss what another year or two of having Matt on the team will provide whille all you opponents are scared shi__less of what he could potentially do against your team and want him gone!!! Just throwing that out there!!!

 

[BigAl]

Entirely possible. Good observation. However where the degree comes in and the SLU connections (like any good University) are the last 20-30 years of your income and the doors/connections that open up for you from those connections. A good example is the pro golfer Matt Kuchar. Most people don't know after College at Ga. Tech (I think) he went to work on Wall Street and played as an amateur. He was going to stay an amateur as he was making so much money on Wall St. he didn't want to turn pro. Doubt that will happen to most players who skip college to go to play pro hockey.



Bravo......and therein lies my point I have been trying to make all day. The MAJORITY of players who jump....and this has been particularly true of the ECAC players I have followed, follow this path when signing. Perhaps at the end of the year sign an ATO for an AHL team, go to camp....maybe stick a year or less in the AHL, wind up in the ECHL or another league for a few years....really want to hang on and maybe give Europe a shot, and, then, finally retire having never cashed in on that pot of gold at the end of the NHL rainbow.

Re-reading all of these posts there is a funny pattern. Maybe it is a sub rosa agenda we all have that Spaceman a.k.a. Tayt touched upon. All of us SLU fans/alums want and feel Matt should stay. All of the visitors seem to support him grabbing the brass ring while he can. So maybe the real agenda is we SLU fans value and covet and will miss what another year or two of having Matt on the team will provide whille all you opponents are scared shi__less of what he could potentially do against your team and want him gone!!! Just throwing that out there!!!

I don't know if my view is worth anything to anyone but I entirely agree on the point that maybe he just doesn't want to go to class. We had a similar situation (in some regard) that Peter Quenneville left. His draft right owner the bluejackets said stay in school at Q and he said I don't want to go to class.

I think most people on this particular page don't like Rand but he nailed it on the head when he said in order to play at Q or any ecac school for that matter you must be a student athlete, you can't just be an athlete and we don't want just an athlete.

I think that's the case here and while it is dissapointing to happen, it at the end of the day wasn't right for him. People grow up hearing different things and some only value college as a stepping stone to the pros. Those kids are not the ones that ecac schools necessarily recruit as much. For the most part ecac schools have players on their team that want to get an education and want to improve their game at the same time.

Matt Peca gets the pro question every year and he says the same thing every time, I came here with the intention of graduating with a degree and preparing myself for the future whether it's hockey or a different career.

I'm not bashing Carey here but sometimes those kids aren't what's best for the team in the long run, even when it hurts in the short run.

I like all of you, would love to see every player come in and excel in the classroom and the ice and go on to successful careers in whatever they chose. But at the same time I realize not everyone thinks the same way and that's ok. I hope everything works out for the kids that leave early cause it's never good to see someone have nothing to fall back on. Just my thought