Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

[TimU]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Uh, check your logic, L.F. Civil disagreement and even even rude disagreement do not limit free speech, although namecalling doesn't add much to it. However, this thread hardly constitutes a crowded theater. Were you thinking of a fire? A mob shouting someone down constitutes censorship, which is certainly a denial of free speech. An individual shouting someone down is simply a moron, however.
Free speech is not subordinate to mob rule, or even majority rule.

Did someone from the government show up and threaten to punish you for voicing your opinion when I wasn't paying attention?

 

[bronconick]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Thanks, Bron. Lots of people claim to support free speech but far fewer support it in practice, particularly when it free speech contradicts their opinions. Fortunately, even fewer people resort to slurs and namecalling rather than facts and reasoning when they exercise free speech - but it does happen.

Since I'm not in the enforcement branch of the government of the United States with the power to shut you up, your "free speech" nonsense is exactly that.

Your knowledge of how the Constitution works matches your knowledge of college hockey.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Sigh.

If you choose to quit speaking (please, oh please) because you're tired of not being listened to, well, that's your choice, not a violation of your right to free speech.

I truly wish "some people" would ignore me and continue to smugly (but silently) cling to their conviction that college academic standards have been, are, and will remain exempt from corruption by college athletics, including college hockey. Or is college hockey alone incorruptable and other sports at fault? I forget which alternative is claimed, but both are patent hogwash.

I suggest those brave enough to expose their cherished beliefs to critical facts and opinions read "Reclaiming the Game: College Sports and Educational Values" by William G. Bowen and Sarah A. Levin. There they will discover some familiar concerns and conclusions about college athletics, including hockey. They also will find many of these annoying conclusions supported by original research. Rabid hockey fans may wish to forward their denials and vituperation to Bowen and Levin and drown them out by superior numbers.

 

[4four4]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

I truly wish "some people" would ignore me and continue to smugly (but silently) cling to their conviction that college academic standards have been, are, and will remain exempt from corruption by college athletics, including college hockey.

Please stop!

Every sport known to man is corrupt. Football, baseball, hockey, soccer, LAX, rowing, swimming, basketball, field hockey, curling, ice dancing, skiing, ice skating, gymnastics, all come to mind.

Like yourself, college academic standards are a joke. We have no business having any standards. If you want to remain on your high horse maybe you should stop following division one sports and follow division three sports. At least at that level the corruption is virtually zero.

LOL!

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

 

[TimU]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

I truly wish "some people" would ignore me and continue to smugly (but silently) cling to their conviction that college academic standards have been, are, and will remain exempt from corruption by college athletics, including college hockey. Or is college hockey alone incorruptable and other sports at fault? I forget which alternative is claimed, but both are patent hogwash.

As are your first two sentences. NOBODY has said either of those things even once. Except you.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Recipe for disaster*:

Assume if it hasn't happened yet (or very often) it won't become a problem.
Conclude in this area money and ambition will not corrupt anyone.
Conclude regulation and oversight have a low priority.
Label any negative indicators as inconsequential or demented.
Ignore preparation for a worst case event.

*taken from the B.P./Goldman Sachs playbook. Echoed by organizations facing disaster everywhere.

Alternative Recipe for disaster :

Take 1 pound of hysteria
Mix well and add in cherry picked stats
Sprinkle in some flawed assumptions
Roll out onto an internet forum
Season for a few days
Then post under the user name Osorojo

Wait 10 minutes and voila......disaster

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

I suggest those brave enough to expose their cherished beliefs to critical facts and opinions

You first.......

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

"Like yourself, college academic standards are a joke. We have no business having any standards."

I'm glad I amuse some of my fellow hockey fans and delighted to see at last the opinion of overzealous hockey (college athletics) fans so clearly and honestly stated. Assuming that "4for4" is not employing the imperial "we," his definitive contention is that neither alumni, nor coaches, nor institutions of higher education have the right to apply or enforce academic standards upon college athletes - including hockey players.

"Nobody ever said this?" If you refuse to see it's probably futile to ask you to think.

 

[komey1]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

"Like yourself, college academic standards are a joke. We have no business having any standards."

I'm glad I amuse some of my fellow hockey fans and delighted to see at last the opinion of overzealous hockey (college athletics) fans so clearly and honestly stated. Assuming that "4for4" is not employing the imperial "we," his definitive contention is that neither alumni, nor coaches, nor institutions of higher education have the right to apply or enforce academic standards upon college athletes - including hockey players.

"Nobody ever said this?" If you refuse to see it's probably futile to ask you to think.

I believe that was sarcasm from 4four4.

Allow me this anecdote. There were many in the Rochester community that wanted RIT to bring their program up to DI from DIII. RIT's president for the longest time resisted, with his primary concern being that the academics would be comprimised. Now that RIT has moved up, the academics of the hockey players as a whole are on par if not better than the general student population.

Is there potential for a problem - yes. However, unless I am missing something there is not a current, or at the very least a widespread, problem. Getting all panicy or a problem that does not appear to exist does not help the real problems that college hockey has - such as how to make sure that the current teams don't fold and looking for ways to expand.

 

[WildKitty]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Here's my perspective on the thing:
College hockey is in danger of any atrocity any other college sport has suffered. No one is contesting the POSSIBILITY. But in college hockey, it's only just barely drizzling controversy and corruption - there's no sign of the Noatian flood our pet Cornell fan is ranting about. There will be signs. Osorojo is in his canoe, decked out in scuba gear with extra O2, waiting for the flood. We're maybe thinking about getting our umbrellas out or wearing a hat/hood.

(Warning, completely un-cite-able comment to follow: )
And really, with all the hazing that I've heard used to happen, compared to the few incidents now being reported, I wonder if hockey isn't on the mend.
(I wonder how many fires THAT one will start? )

 

[TimU]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

"Nobody ever said this?" If you refuse to see it's probably futile to ask you to think.

It's not a "refusal" to not see what isn't there. Tell you what, why don't you point me to the place where someone did say it?

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Here's my perspective on the thing:
College hockey is in danger of any atrocity any other college sport has suffered. No one is contesting the POSSIBILITY. But in college hockey, it's only just barely drizzling controversy and corruption - there's no sign of the Noatian flood our pet Cornell fan is ranting about. There will be signs. Osorojo is in his canoe, decked out in scuba gear with extra O2, waiting for the flood. We're maybe thinking about getting our umbrellas out or wearing a hat/hood.

(Warning, completely un-cite-able comment to follow: )
And really, with all the hazing that I've heard used to happen, compared to the few incidents now being reported, I wonder if hockey isn't on the mend.
(I wonder how many fires THAT one will start? )

Un-cite-able response: At least one, at UVM.

Some college hockey programs maintain exemplary academic requirements. Some do not. If the "do nots" become more successful at winning, drawing crowds, and making money, a stinking heap of "do nots" will quickly rule college hockey, as they have other college sports. Consider Florida State University, the University of Connecticut the University of Minnesota, etc. etc; check Arizona's baseball (!) program.

You can ignore or belittle the threat of academic corruption by college athletics (including hockey) if you wish, and your decision will be backed by powerful and recent precedent: refusing to recognize credible dangers and refusing to take measures to prevent their onset, as practiced by Bank of America, Goldman Sterns, B.P., the NCAA, etc. etc.

You can claim that colleges which overlook corruption of academic standards do NOT win more games/make more money than those that don't. The relative number of championship college athletic programs [see above] involved in academic cheating discredits this claim. Neither willful ignorance nor blind faith can protect the things we value as well as vigilance and diligence.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Un-cite-able response: At least one, at UVM.

Some college hockey programs maintain exemplary academic requirements. Some do not. If the "do nots" become more successful at winning, drawing crowds, and making money, a stinking heap of "do nots" will quickly rule college hockey, as they have other college sports. Consider Florida State University, the University of Connecticut the University of Minnesota, etc. etc; check Arizona's baseball (!) program.

I thought we are talking about college hockey?


Yes it happens, there are programs with less then stellar academic records, but the lowest ones...Minny.....have improved by almost 10% over the past 5-10 years. I know you are going to ask for a reference for this, but I'm too lazy to look it up again and it's on the other insane thread you started.

Have you heard the saying "making a mountain out of a mole hill"?


Hey did you hear the Korea's are probably going to revoke their truce and head back to war.......you better get back to work on your bomb shelter, because there is a better chance that the North K wacko will launch a nuclear weapon our way then there is that college hockey will turn into college football.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

I thought we are talking about college hockey?


"Yes it happens, there are programs with less then stellar academic records. . ."

Translation: "less than stellar" = cheating


The examples you dismiss as inconsequential are not schools with "less than
stellar academic programs" - they are (were) willful cheaters. Reasonable people will no sooner dismiss academic cheating by winning programs than they will dismiss athletic cheating by winning programs.

Cheaters have won games and championships and will continue to do so at at greater rate unless oversight is increased, cheating is exposed, and significant penalties are enforced. Only AFTER coaches, alumni, and college officials are convinced that the risk of discovery, publicity, and financial loss excedes the benefits of cheating will assaults on academic standards by athletic programs decrease.

From reading sports news it's apparent that several coaches, alums, and college officials of winning athletic programs still think it's worth the risk to cheat. The attitude that cheaters are simply "less than stellar" certainly does not discourage these coaches, alums, fans, and officials. Of course they may be rabid, raving maniacs unable to percieve the risks which cheating brings to their school.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

I thought we are talking about college hockey?


"Yes it happens, there are programs with less then stellar academic records. . ."

Translation: "less than stellar" = cheating


The examples you dismiss as inconsequential are not schools with "less than
stellar academic programs" - they are (were) willful cheaters. Reasonable people will no sooner dismiss academic cheating by winning programs than they will dismiss athletic cheating by winning programs.

Cheaters have won games and championships and will continue to do so at at greater rate unless oversight is increased, cheating is exposed, and significant penalties are enforced. Only AFTER coaches, alumni, and college officials are convinced that the risk of discovery, publicity, and financial loss excedes the benefits of cheating will assaults on academic standards by athletic programs decrease.

From reading sports news it's apparent that several coaches, alums, and college officials of winning athletic programs still think it's worth the risk to cheat. The attitude that cheaters are simply "less than stellar" certainly does not discourage these coaches, alums, fans, and officials. Of course they may be rabid, raving maniacs unable to percieve the risks which cheating brings to their school.

I dissmissed them because they AREN'T HOCKEY PROGRAMS. We are talking about college hockey. Got it, hockey. You know with sticks, skates and a little rubber disk.

If you want to talk about college football programs go find a ****ing college football thread. Jeez.......

And if you are going to continue this cheating ****, then you had better start backing it up with actual facts before you get cited for slander. And remember, this is a HOCKEY discussion board. If you want to other sports go somewhere else.

 

[komey1]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

We get that it HAS/DOES happen in other sports. And of course there IS the potential for problems. However, it does not appear that it is happening. Are there a multitude of programs that are cheating? I don't think there are.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Good god, this is absurd.

Corruption, cheating, thievery, and whatever else you're talking about takes place when money gets involved. The more money, the more cheating.

The amount of money involved in college hockey is small, so the amount of crap going on is equally small. The TV ratings are unmeasurable, there's no national TV package, and I have my doubts that the TV games and packages that are shown are making much even for schools like Minnesota.

Hell, this guy writing about the odds for this year's tournament in Vegas apparently can read the board on the odds, but can't read a bracket since he has North Dakota facing Michigan in the 1st round. You'll excuse me if I don't buy the possibility of a lot of point shaving scandals in a sport where 1 "point" a period is about average, and the money placed on games is 1/1,000,000th or less of what's being put on some other NCAA sporting event going on at the same time.

I'm sure there's a few shady things going on, especially if a player who does get caught by his coach can conveniently head off to Major Juniors at semester if he hates class or some alumni let him eat a sandwich without paying. But this being your "crusade" is the real world equivalent to telling people to stop golfing because golf balls are made from oil and we're using too much oil.

Go find a political board and rant about corruption, or failing that, a fan board of the Alabama Crimson Tide.

 

[Patman]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Octopus...

I should be ignoring you... but do you have ANY evidence that UConn has falsified grades or academic records.

Let me say that I've TAed in a fail class (Statistics 1000/1100Q) and I've personally entered in grades for students at the end of the semester.

Produce it or shut your pile hole.

----

I believe that UConn mens basketball skirts the rules and breaks some of them. Jim Calhoun is a scumbag and has recently admitted to several NCAA violations. What I will not let you do is lie.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

We get that it HAS/DOES happen in other sports. And of course there IS the potential for problems. However, it does not appear that it is happening. Are there a multitude of programs that are cheating? I don't think there are.

The NCAA basically eliminated college entrance requirements for athletes in 2009 when it reduced minimum SAT scores for college athletes to 400 (this includes hockey recruits). Do you realize what an SAT of 400 indicates? This rule change guarantees that many (not all) recruits (in all sports) who are gifted athletes will be forced to cheat, since they are unprepared and/or unable to meet the academic standards which responsible college faculties will continue to enforce.

www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/10/02
www.knightcommission.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3752/is_200211/ai_n9165977/
www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2009-07-08-athlete-advisers_N.htm

In addition, the Drake Group has published several expressions of concern regarding college athletics (which might include hockey) and academic standards.

To its credit, the NCAA has accused UCon's coach Calhoun of "failure to promote an atmosphere of compliance" - a charge which indicates complicity by UCon administrators - or reveals they don't know (or care) what the hell's going on in their university.

I refuse to buy into the absurd excuse that college hockey is not and can not be influenced or victimized by the mindset, rules, or actions of other college sports or their governing body.

As for the "we're talking about hockey" evasion: I don't give much of a rat about big time college football or big time college basketball. I know how their recruitment and "college studies" are conducted. I'll watch the pros instead - much more legitimate, much better regulated. I enjoy college hockey, and have done so since I watched the first home game of Paul Patton's team. I'm afraid that the attitude and actions of other college sports programs are corrupting college hockey, and I'm convinced that ignorance is NOT bliss - in either college or college hockey.