Shannon Miller out at UMD?

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Has she not recruited some Minnesota players in the past? On the present roster there's Morin and Stauber (plus Klaas and Astrup although I do not know anything about the status of these two). Off the top of my head, correct me if I'm wrong which I trust that you will enthusiastically do, Dodge, Guzzo and Hawkins and/or Matilla (can't remember for sure) come to mind.

Is there a hard and fast minimum quota? Has there ever been?

But as I've mentioned before...sure doesn't seem like the Clarkson administration or fans are doing any bellyaching.

Clarkson is in NY, having any players from Mn is somewhat surprising
2/3 of the Clarkson US players are from MN, they have recruited others that have not gone there, I know of at least one recruit that will be going there

too little too late for recruiting MN players for Miller
until she knew she was in trouble, pretty much ignored them.
failing to recrruit players from your own area is the kiss of death, for multiple reasons
too bad for Miller she needed it explained
do you?

 

[DelayedOffside]

No worries, I am a fan of UMD women's hockey and support 100% UMD's decision. Sick of her thinking she's better than she really is.

Miller is just one of the last of the dinosaurs that got into Womens hockey early and had the 'pick of the crop' of players. They were successful because they had these players and were tyrants. This group includes Digit Murphy, Heather Linstad, even Margot Page. The 'holier than thou' attitudes of this group doesn't fly in today's game UNLESS you've earned the respect from both players and administration. This group failed to do that and ultimately paid the price. (Could add Maria Lewis to this group)

 

[Genbeau]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Miller is just one of the last of the dinosaurs that got into Womens hockey early and had the 'pick of the crop' of players. They were successful because they had these players and were tyrants. This group includes Digit Murphy, Heather Linstad, even Margot Page. The 'holier than thou' attitudes of this group doesn't fly in today's game UNLESS you've earned the respect from both players and administration. This group failed to do that and ultimately paid the price. (Could add Maria Lewis to this group)

^^ si, oui, da, ja, aye, na'am, ndiyo, YES ^^ I think UMD might have to pinch their nose and pay her off to make her go away. She's got years and years of experience working against her at this point. It's sad, really. I wonder if Coach "Magic" at Wisconsin feels he should be paid the same as his counterpart on the men's team? Or Frosty at UM?

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Miller is just one of the last of the dinosaurs that got into Womens hockey early and had the 'pick of the crop' of players. They were successful because they had these players and were tyrants. This group includes Digit Murphy, Heather Linstad, even Margot Page. The 'holier than thou' attitudes of this group doesn't fly in today's game UNLESS you've earned the respect from both players and administration. This group failed to do that and ultimately paid the price. (Could add Maria Lewis to this group)

I call it pick of the litter

Miller has made the claim that female hockey players need a female head coach as a role model.
How can we tell if this claim is true or not?

One way would be to go to the women hockey players themselves. If young women hockey players value a female head coach as a role model, surely, all else being equal they would chose to go to a school with a woman as head coach. Since in the recent past there has been no other female head coach in the WCHA besides Shannon Miller, and very few elsewhere, we would expect that Miller would get the pick of the litter, so to speak. Nearly everyone would want to play for her.

But looking at rosters it is apparent that Miller has not been getting the best players. So apparently having a women head coach to serve as a role model isn’t all that important to prospective college players.

But there are other possibilities:
Miller has been getting the best players, but has not developed them to their maximum.
Miller cannot discern which of the prospective players have the most talent.
Young women value a woman head coach to serve as a role model, but Shannon Miller isn’t the role model they want.

Whether Shannon Miller lacks the ability to recognize talent, lacks the ability to develop talent, or isn’t the role model young women are looking for, it should be apparent that UMD is justified in not renewing her contract.

 

[Rightnut]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

But looking at rosters it is apparent that Miller has not been getting the best players. So apparently having a women head coach to serve as a role model isn’t all that important to prospective college players.

It seems to me that this is a true statement. I don't think having a woman head coach is that important to most female recruits/players. I am sure that it is for some and maybe one of the considerations but its well down the list behind team, academics, school and a host of other factors. I would even venture to say that many female players don't want to play for a woman. I haven't seen any actual statistics on this but based on my observations, having a female coach is not a top factor.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

What does it say that women are prepared to play under a male coach but that no one thinks that men are prepared to play for a female coach?

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Clarkson is in NY, having any players from Mn is somewhat surprising
2/3 of the Clarkson US players are from MN, they have recruited others that have not gone there, I know of at least one recruit that will be going there

too little too late for recruiting MN players for Miller
until she knew she was in trouble, pretty much ignored them.
failing to recrruit players from your own area is the kiss of death, for multiple reasons
too bad for Miller she needed it explained
do you?

Not sure whether to give you the benefit of the doubt and appreciate your humour in pretending to misunderstand the point that I was making or to conclude that you missed it.

And forgot to mention previously, agree with your take on present day "journalism". Most of them are just cub reporters.

 

[Rightnut]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

What does it say that women are prepared to play under a male coach but that no one thinks that men are prepared to play for a female coach?

That's a good point and I don't know. My two cents is that it just shows that men and women are different.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

part of the problem for coaches that raise expectations at their school is that their school now expects success forevermore. Many, many coaches have been let go even though they were once successful.

This certainly appears to be part of the problem here but it is prevalent in other areas as well. An example is giving periodic wage increases according to a regular schedule to an employee to the point where they are earning above normal wages for their job description even though their performance hasn't improved in any tangible way, not that it necessarily needed to improve. Once the employer turns off the tap at the next expected pay raise interval the employee is confused, upset, etc.. The employer thinks the employee should be grateful to earn more than the industry "norm" without having to do more but the employee is thinking "what's wrong, why am I not getting a raise this year, did I do something wrong, is it my job performance, etc.?" and the necessary conversation has to occur with the employee otherwise the situation festers. And it still might even after the conversation occurs. And it may even lead to a parting of the ways.

So the employer, in an attempt to be generous and more than fair with his past wage increases has actually created an unintended Pavlovian response in the employee and they both suffer when the intent was for both of them to benefit. Human nature.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

But looking at rosters it is apparent that Miller has not been getting the best players. So apparently having a women head coach to serve as a role model isn’t all that important to prospective college players.

It seems to me that this is a true statement. I don't think having a woman head coach is that important to most female recruits/players. I am sure that it is for some and maybe one of the considerations but its well down the list behind team, academics, school and a host of other factors. I would even venture to say that many female players don't want to play for a woman. I haven't seen any actual statistics on this but based on my observations, having a female coach is not a top factor.

Actually, when we were looking, a female head coach was actually seen as a real negative...and certainly any program with no male on the bench was a definite no no. Most girls have only had male head coaches in minor hockey, so they tend to be most familiar and therefore comfortable with that. Many of the female coaches we were exposed through (or gained info on through friends), were very cold and seemed to have much more of a tendency to want to play head games.

 

[shelfit]

Miller is just one of the last of the dinosaurs that got into Womens hockey early and had the 'pick of the crop' of players. They were successful because they had these players and were tyrants. This group includes Digit Murphy, Heather Linstad, even Margot Page. The 'holier than thou' attitudes of this group doesn't fly in today's game UNLESS you've earned the respect from both players and administration. This group failed to do that and ultimately paid the price. (Could add Maria Lewis to this group)

Not sure I agree with your assessment of these 4 coaches. All different personalities. Not sure they all fit into your "holier than thou" category. Isn't Maria Lewis coaching a new D3 team next season? Not sure what the other 3 are up to except I think Digit Murphy is coaching the Boston team in the CWHL isn't she?

 

[Cali]

No worries, I am a fan of UMD women's hockey and support 100% UMD's decision. Sick of her thinking she's better than she really is.

When is Miller officially done?

 

[brookyone]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

So the employer, in an attempt to be generous and more than fair with his past wage increases...

Hmmm...never had one of those employers myself. Same as millions of others in the real world. Hence my lack of sympathy for Shannon Miller who has much less to complain about than she seems to believe she has. In my opinion.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Hmmm...never had one of those employers myself. Same as millions of others in the real world. Hence my lack of sympathy for Shannon Miller who has much less to complain about than she seems to believe she has. In my opinion.

It was just an example of unrealistic expectations that can occur in life and while I agree that the specific example that I gave is probably not common, it happens...was involved in one myself. Don't necessarily disagree with your lack of sympathy for Miller, but I also think that for UMD to claim that part of their reasoning is her "lack of success" in the past few years is extremely unrealistic, to put it kindly, given her record. And that assumes that they are being genuine with respect to that part of their assessment. But it's like someone else said previously, "what have you done for me lately?"...which might be a realistic way to look at it with a different record but I think considering her record, not so much. I don't think they've done themselves any favours because their story hasn't made sense from the outset if we consider only what they've claimed.

It's kind of like when George Bret hit .450 (I think it was) and was a major batting hero for a few years because no one had accomplished that before, like Bannister and the sub 4 minute mile. Nobody in their right mind would think that that could be sustained indefinitely. It would have been like the Royals cutting Bret loose a few years later because he didn't hit 450 again but had flatlined for a few years at .300.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

It's kind of like when George Bret hit .450 (I think it was) and was a major batting hero for a few years because no one had accomplished that before, like Bannister and the sub 4 minute mile. Nobody in their right mind would think that that could be sustained indefinitely. It would have been like the Royals cutting Bret loose a few years later because he didn't hit 450 again but had flatlined for a few years at .300.

I'm trying to figure out the relevance of this. From the age of 22 to 37, George Brett never had an OPS+ of less than 121 and never went two consecutive years at less than 138. Sure, he only broke 200 once (in which he hit .390, not .450) but you can't find a single year in there where he could legitimately be called league average.

And if a baseball player, no matter how good he was at one point, had a four year stretch where he was barely better than league average, which I think is an accurate description of Miller's recent career, you'd be nuts to think that he'd ever regain his hall of fame form. (Not that it has never happened, but you shouldn't put any money on it unless you get really good odds.) As it happens, I think that's a terrible analogy to the aging pattern of coaches but that only gets us to not grasping the relevance of your comment.

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

But it's like someone else said previously, "what have you done for me lately?"...which might be a realistic way to look at it with a different record but I think considering her record, not so much.

If this was pro sports, nobody would be surprised by this news, because her team has accomplished little over the last four years. The record has really dipped the last three season, she's coached the league's fourth-best team, and hasn't even reached the semifinals in two of the last three. So while I admit that I was surprised UMD chose to part ways with her, her program has been in decline, like those at Providence, Brown, and UNH to name a few. Not to that degree, but she wasn't being paid to be an also ran.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

My two cents is that it just shows that men and women are different.

careful, there are a number of people who have been saying for decades there are not
except when it serves their interest to claim they are different

I also think that for UMD to claim that part of their reasoning is her "lack of success" in the past few years is extremely unrealistic,.

I realize I am wasting my time trying to point out the flaws in Blackbird's reasoning, but losing to BSU in the playoffs this year isn't a lack of success?

losing to OSU 2 years ago, and especially her behavior during that, should be reason enough to drop her

she wasn't being paid to be an also ran.

exactly, she was being paid a championship rate for lackluster performance

I don't think they've (UMD & their AD)done themselves any favours because their story hasn't made sense from the outset if we consider only what they've claimed..

I question what world you come from, they were just trying to allow Miller to exit gracefully but Miller seemingly is bent on self destruction. She has not just made herself unemployable as a coach, she has made herself unemployable as anything except perhaps a Jerry Springer - Don Cherry stir the pot to make turmoil type media person

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

I'm trying to figure out the relevance of this. From the age of 22 to 37, George Brett never had an OPS+ of less than 121 and never went two consecutive years at less than 138. Sure, he only broke 200 once (in which he hit .390, not .450) but you can't find a single year in there where he could legitimately be called league average.

And if a baseball player, no matter how good he was at one point, had a four year stretch where he was barely better than league average, which I think is an accurate description of Miller's recent career, you'd be nuts to think that he'd ever regain his hall of fame form. (Not that it has never happened, but you shouldn't put any money on it unless you get really good odds.) As it happens, I think that's a terrible analogy to the aging pattern of coaches but that only gets us to not grasping the relevance of your comment.

It was simply a general comment on unrealistic expectations, possibly not the greatest example but I think you get the point.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

they were just trying to allow Miller to exit gracefully

I think most of us have concluded that that was their intent, Choker. My point was that there was never enough cover for their BS (oh, sorry, I mean their political correctness) to wash with any reasonably intelligent person regardless of whether or not Miller was willing to go along with it. As it so happens her reaction has increased their lack of credibility in that regard by drawing attention to it instead of the casual onlookers`just accepting their reasoning as being logical without thinking about it.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

I think most of us have concluded that that was their intent, Choker. My point was that there was never enough cover for their BS (oh, sorry, I mean their political correctness) to wash with any reasonably intelligent person regardless of whether or not Miller was willing to go along with it. As it so happens her reaction has increased their lack of credibility in that regard by drawing attention to it instead of the casual onlookers`just accepting their reasoning as being logical without thinking about it.

au contraire

you have that backwards, she has almost no credibility with reasonably intelligent people (those that have looked at the facts), it is the casual onlookers who have accepted Miller's actions because they are ignorant of the facts, UMD's credibilty has gone up as time has gone on

and all this publicity, they certainly won't have to pay to get the word out they are looking for a coach

as it turns out, they have gotten more publicity by canning her than she ever got for them by winning