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Shannon Miller out at UMD?
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driventoit
New member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Interesting piece on lawsuits going viral, including reference to UMD.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/23/u...raw-an-online-crowd.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0
Interesting piece on lawsuits going viral, including reference to UMD.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/23/u...raw-an-online-crowd.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0
pokechecker
Banned
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
what is Nichol's ulterior motive? did you even read the article you posted? do you even know who she is?
what is Nichol's ulterior motive? did you even read the article you posted? do you even know who she is?
Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Of course I read the article before posting it. I didn't think it was complicated.
Her motive is to put the best spin on the situation by asserting that she and UMD "have made great strides in improving the campus climate since she opened the office in 2000." To do otherwise would be to admit something other than success with respect to both her and UMD's involvement on this issue. Regardless of whether or not it is true, the statement serves to add a positive spin to the other side of one of the possible points of contention between Miller and UMD.
Of course I read the article before posting it. I didn't think it was complicated.
Her motive is to put the best spin on the situation by asserting that she and UMD "have made great strides in improving the campus climate since she opened the office in 2000." To do otherwise would be to admit something other than success with respect to both her and UMD's involvement on this issue. Regardless of whether or not it is true, the statement serves to add a positive spin to the other side of one of the possible points of contention between Miller and UMD.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
My understanding is that Shannon Miller and her attorneys are in the process of deciding whether or not to proceed with a lawsuit against the University of Minnesota-Duluth. If the decision to proceed has not yet been made, they're probably close to making that decision. Or it's possible that they've already decided to proceed, but are waiting until the team's season is behind them. As a fan of the women's game, but with no ties to the school, I'm curious about a couple of things.
First, would her suit against the University, if filed, be limited to monetary damages only? Or, in other words, if she's successful would there be any chance that she could be reinstated as head coach for a negotiated (or court-ordered) salary? Or is it a given that her tenure as UMD's head coach is over, with or without any monetary damages the court rules she may be entitled to?
All this makes me curious what her real objective truly is. On this one can only speculate...
I also wonder if a filed lawsuit at season's end would affect the timing of when the search for a replacement coach begins, and then announced? And perhaps more importantly, to what extent will the naming of a new coach have on current players transferring to other schools? And, in the near future, with all the uncertainty of the (likely?) change in coaching staffs, will UMD still be able to recruit top players from the U.S., Canada and - perhaps more importantly - Europe?
The situation right now is obviously very unsettled, and there is still a season to finish. Don't count the Bulldogs out!
They're a Minnesota school, and as a Minnesota hockey fan and former Duluth resident, I want them to succeed in the WCHA and nationally, except of course when they're playing my Gophers. But their future right now is, at best, cloudy, and I worry a bit about "Life after Shannon".
Comments/Speculation welcome.
My understanding is that Shannon Miller and her attorneys are in the process of deciding whether or not to proceed with a lawsuit against the University of Minnesota-Duluth. If the decision to proceed has not yet been made, they're probably close to making that decision. Or it's possible that they've already decided to proceed, but are waiting until the team's season is behind them. As a fan of the women's game, but with no ties to the school, I'm curious about a couple of things.
First, would her suit against the University, if filed, be limited to monetary damages only? Or, in other words, if she's successful would there be any chance that she could be reinstated as head coach for a negotiated (or court-ordered) salary? Or is it a given that her tenure as UMD's head coach is over, with or without any monetary damages the court rules she may be entitled to?
All this makes me curious what her real objective truly is. On this one can only speculate...
I also wonder if a filed lawsuit at season's end would affect the timing of when the search for a replacement coach begins, and then announced? And perhaps more importantly, to what extent will the naming of a new coach have on current players transferring to other schools? And, in the near future, with all the uncertainty of the (likely?) change in coaching staffs, will UMD still be able to recruit top players from the U.S., Canada and - perhaps more importantly - Europe?
The situation right now is obviously very unsettled, and there is still a season to finish. Don't count the Bulldogs out!
They're a Minnesota school, and as a Minnesota hockey fan and former Duluth resident, I want them to succeed in the WCHA and nationally, except of course when they're playing my Gophers. But their future right now is, at best, cloudy, and I worry a bit about "Life after Shannon".
Comments/Speculation welcome.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Her tenure at UMD is over. Courts are extremely reluctant to order specific performance and will almost never order an employer to rehire someone. Most of the instances of this that you hear of fall into one of three categories:
1) It was actually an arbitration case rather than one before the courts, but even this is rare;
2) It was actually an order that the defendant pay out the wages that would have been owed under the contract and the defendant decides that if they're going to be paying the wages anyway, they will require the plaintiff to show up for work;
3) Reinstatement is required by the employment contract, whether it is individually negotiated or part of a collective bargaining agreement.
In this case, Shannon Miller had no contract beyond the end of this season, so there isn't any contract going forward that UMD could be required to fulfill. So the possibility of a ruling for specific performance drops from "astoundingly unlikely" to "zero."
Her tenure at UMD is over. Courts are extremely reluctant to order specific performance and will almost never order an employer to rehire someone. Most of the instances of this that you hear of fall into one of three categories:
1) It was actually an arbitration case rather than one before the courts, but even this is rare;
2) It was actually an order that the defendant pay out the wages that would have been owed under the contract and the defendant decides that if they're going to be paying the wages anyway, they will require the plaintiff to show up for work;
3) Reinstatement is required by the employment contract, whether it is individually negotiated or part of a collective bargaining agreement.
In this case, Shannon Miller had no contract beyond the end of this season, so there isn't any contract going forward that UMD could be required to fulfill. So the possibility of a ruling for specific performance drops from "astoundingly unlikely" to "zero."
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
The future would have been cloudy even with Shannon. A lot of the Bulldogs' impact is graduating, and I wasn't overly impressed by the group of freshmen that was supposed to be a big upgrade over those players who were sent packing. Four straight 4th place finishes. If that's a dynasty, then I'd say most of the spin is coming from the litigant.
Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
If her relationship with the AD was previously less than ideal as has been indicated and if it somehow turned out that she could be reinstated, if she was interested, can you imagine how tense the relationship between the two of them would then be? It is possible that she might still do it because she might think that it is the right outcome for her, undoing a wrong as it were, and/or she might be interested because of the gigantic public statement that she might perceive such an outcome would be making if gender discrimination became a large enough part of the legal battle. Either way, I think it is safe to say that she would view it as a victory for either reason, if not for both.
Then again, she might no longer be interested in that particular job due to the tense environment she would be most likely be working in if she felt that she otherwise had scored a victory and felt that the whole episode would not overly affect her ability to get another job doing what she wants to do.
If her relationship with the AD was previously less than ideal as has been indicated and if it somehow turned out that she could be reinstated, if she was interested, can you imagine how tense the relationship between the two of them would then be? It is possible that she might still do it because she might think that it is the right outcome for her, undoing a wrong as it were, and/or she might be interested because of the gigantic public statement that she might perceive such an outcome would be making if gender discrimination became a large enough part of the legal battle. Either way, I think it is safe to say that she would view it as a victory for either reason, if not for both.
Then again, she might no longer be interested in that particular job due to the tense environment she would be most likely be working in if she felt that she otherwise had scored a victory and felt that the whole episode would not overly affect her ability to get another job doing what she wants to do.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
I don't think that going forward would affect the chances of her getting another job in coaching because probabilities can't fall below zero. She's completely radioactive at this point and no one is going to hire her: a coach whose best years are well in the past; whose recent performance has been less than stellar; is widely regarded as being difficult to work with on a daily basis; and has threatened to go nuclear over her last employer not renewing her contract.
Why in the world would anyone running a hockey team want to acquire that particular set of attributes?
I don't think that going forward would affect the chances of her getting another job in coaching because probabilities can't fall below zero. She's completely radioactive at this point and no one is going to hire her: a coach whose best years are well in the past; whose recent performance has been less than stellar; is widely regarded as being difficult to work with on a daily basis; and has threatened to go nuclear over her last employer not renewing her contract.
Why in the world would anyone running a hockey team want to acquire that particular set of attributes?
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
You may well be right (I'm no lawyer!) but I don't think "specific performance drops" will be the deciding factor as to where this will go. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her (probable) suit - and the court's verdict - be based on a "gender equity" and/or a "sexual orientation equity" basis. In this realm - in an unusual case such as this - who knows what any court might decide? The abilities of her attorneys and the predisposition of the judge may very well determine the outcome. And the longer this could take, with possible appeals, the more uncertainly for their current players and recruits...
Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
You're assuming that everyone would see things the way that you do. She, and others, might view things a lot differently.
You're assuming that everyone would see things the way that you do. She, and others, might view things a lot differently.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
I'm sure she does. I see no reason that a prospective employer wouldn't. That would have to be one hell of an interview.
I'm sure she does. I see no reason that a prospective employer wouldn't. That would have to be one hell of an interview.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Maybe Lebanon Valley College would want to hire her for their new D-III women's program that is going to start in 2016-17. She'll love this part of their announcement: "Men’s coach Don Parsons will immediately begin to recruit the first class for the women’s team, while a national search will start immediately for a permanent women’s coach that will start in the summer of 2016." He's the current men's club team coach, has no apparent women's coaching background, but he's going to recruit the team for the new women's coach that is supposed to start working there in the summer of 2016. Wow, what a backwards way to get things started! Why wouldn't they hire an experienced women's hockey coach to recruit during the 2015-16 season and give the coach a full year to recruit before the team's first season of play like so many other recent new programs have done. The way they say they're going to go about it hints that maybe the men's coach is going to oversee the women's coach/program. Red flag!
Maybe Lebanon Valley College would want to hire her for their new D-III women's program that is going to start in 2016-17. She'll love this part of their announcement: "Men’s coach Don Parsons will immediately begin to recruit the first class for the women’s team, while a national search will start immediately for a permanent women’s coach that will start in the summer of 2016." He's the current men's club team coach, has no apparent women's coaching background, but he's going to recruit the team for the new women's coach that is supposed to start working there in the summer of 2016. Wow, what a backwards way to get things started! Why wouldn't they hire an experienced women's hockey coach to recruit during the 2015-16 season and give the coach a full year to recruit before the team's first season of play like so many other recent new programs have done. The way they say they're going to go about it hints that maybe the men's coach is going to oversee the women's coach/program. Red flag!
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pokechecker
Banned
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
if there is anything we know for certain, it is that she sees the world differently than the rest of us.
Blackbird can feel free to be included with "she"
if anyone is guilty of discrimination, it is Miller.
what are the mathematical odds that all the coaches/staff of a hockey team would be lesbian or gay?
if a private university wanted a gay/lesbian hockey team, that would certainly be their prerogative
but UMD is public
and Miller seems to have problems even with her own staff, it is like a revolving door
when you read the comments on Miller of her most decorated player, and former assistant, basically what she says is:
yeah, she's a b*tch, but she has good intentions
not exactly a glowing endorsement
if there is anything we know for certain, it is that she sees the world differently than the rest of us.
Blackbird can feel free to be included with "she"
if anyone is guilty of discrimination, it is Miller.
what are the mathematical odds that all the coaches/staff of a hockey team would be lesbian or gay?
if a private university wanted a gay/lesbian hockey team, that would certainly be their prerogative
but UMD is public
and Miller seems to have problems even with her own staff, it is like a revolving door
when you read the comments on Miller of her most decorated player, and former assistant, basically what she says is:
yeah, she's a b*tch, but she has good intentions
not exactly a glowing endorsement
pokechecker
Banned
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
maybe they have noticed what has happened at other schools, hiring a coach first , then recruiting players hasn't exactly worked out great elsewhere, at least not for the majority
maybe they have noticed what has happened at other schools, hiring a coach first , then recruiting players hasn't exactly worked out great elsewhere, at least not for the majority
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Specific performance has nothing to do with how the case is decided; it's a possible remedy once the court has found for the plaintiff. It means that the court orders the defendant to perform a specific action, in this case rehire Miller. The conditions under which a court can order specific performance rather than, or in addition to, monetary damages are rare and pretty specific. It basically only happens in the case of a contract that is broken and for which the consideration to have been received by the defendant is in some way unique and irreplaceable by monetary damages. It's most often seen in real estate transactions because the law considers every piece of real estate unique (even if it does look just like the next house in the subdivision); so if someone breaks a contract to sell you a property and then reneges, you can probably get a court order for specific performance, though there are some ways that you wouldn't.
In an employment contract, the consideration received by the employee is money. It's really, really hard to make a case that an employer that unlawfully fires you can't compensate you through monetary damages, since money (which includes benefits as well as cash) was all you were going to receive if the contract hadn't been terminated anyway. In a case like this where there wasn't even a contract going forward, UMD didn't owe her anything. That doesn't mean that they couldn't be found guilty of gender discrimination in their decision not to renew her, which would entitle Miller to damages, but there isn't any contracted performance that the court could order be performed.
Specific performance has nothing to do with how the case is decided; it's a possible remedy once the court has found for the plaintiff. It means that the court orders the defendant to perform a specific action, in this case rehire Miller. The conditions under which a court can order specific performance rather than, or in addition to, monetary damages are rare and pretty specific. It basically only happens in the case of a contract that is broken and for which the consideration to have been received by the defendant is in some way unique and irreplaceable by monetary damages. It's most often seen in real estate transactions because the law considers every piece of real estate unique (even if it does look just like the next house in the subdivision); so if someone breaks a contract to sell you a property and then reneges, you can probably get a court order for specific performance, though there are some ways that you wouldn't.
In an employment contract, the consideration received by the employee is money. It's really, really hard to make a case that an employer that unlawfully fires you can't compensate you through monetary damages, since money (which includes benefits as well as cash) was all you were going to receive if the contract hadn't been terminated anyway. In a case like this where there wasn't even a contract going forward, UMD didn't owe her anything. That doesn't mean that they couldn't be found guilty of gender discrimination in their decision not to renew her, which would entitle Miller to damages, but there isn't any contracted performance that the court could order be performed.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
With a brand new program being put together I would not want to have someone else recruit the first class of players especially a guy with no obvious experience in girls' and women's hockey. You get hired only the summer before the program is set to launch and it's a case of "Here's your team. Good luck!" Then you have the potential conflict of what he promised those players compared to your evaluation of those players and what you think will be the best direction for the program's future and some of those players that he liked might not be in your plans. It sets up a bad situation that isn't good for a new program. He brings in players for the first year and by the end of that season you see that several of them had no business being at that level so now they're going to be replaced by better players. Those families would be very upset and for good reason so that leads to more conflict that was very avoidable if the school had gone about the hiring process properly in the first place.
With a brand new program being put together I would not want to have someone else recruit the first class of players especially a guy with no obvious experience in girls' and women's hockey. You get hired only the summer before the program is set to launch and it's a case of "Here's your team. Good luck!" Then you have the potential conflict of what he promised those players compared to your evaluation of those players and what you think will be the best direction for the program's future and some of those players that he liked might not be in your plans. It sets up a bad situation that isn't good for a new program. He brings in players for the first year and by the end of that season you see that several of them had no business being at that level so now they're going to be replaced by better players. Those families would be very upset and for good reason so that leads to more conflict that was very avoidable if the school had gone about the hiring process properly in the first place.
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pokechecker
Banned
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
We're off topic, but what the heck, beats reading Eeyore's legal opinion
and it could be awhile before Miller comes up with another claim to scratch your head about
15 years ago that would be true, today a new program is getting the last pick of the litter or someone who wants to go to that college irregardless of hockey
you should review Penn State or any other program recently started, a new program is going to go through some growing pains, you just need some bodies to put on the ice for the first year
We're off topic, but what the heck, beats reading Eeyore's legal opinion
and it could be awhile before Miller comes up with another claim to scratch your head about
15 years ago that would be true, today a new program is getting the last pick of the litter or someone who wants to go to that college irregardless of hockey
you should review Penn State or any other program recently started, a new program is going to go through some growing pains, you just need some bodies to put on the ice for the first year
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Well I suppose if the team is terrible the first year and you're the new coach it buys you probably at least a couple of years because you didn't pick the team but now you've got to fix it. It also gets you off the hook with getting rid of players that aren't any good because you didn't pick them so you owe them nothing. I still don't think that's the best approach to starting a new program and it could hurt your recruiting right away. I know I would definitely rather pick my own players if I'm the coach of a new program.
Well I suppose if the team is terrible the first year and you're the new coach it buys you probably at least a couple of years because you didn't pick the team but now you've got to fix it. It also gets you off the hook with getting rid of players that aren't any good because you didn't pick them so you owe them nothing. I still don't think that's the best approach to starting a new program and it could hurt your recruiting right away. I know I would definitely rather pick my own players if I'm the coach of a new program.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
At the UMD site in the game recap from Sunday vs OSU, Shannon is still saying that their goal is to get to the Frozen Four. Seems pretty unlikely to me, but she's done it many times before so I suppose she has more credibility than most saying it out loud.
I can't say I am rooting for them to do it, but it would be a pretty crazy scene if they did.
Also, I thought they executed a good game plan very well in the second game against the Gophers a couple weeks ago, except for poor Kayla Black skating off the ice while Lee Stecklein had possession of the puck. The girl sitting in front of me said Miller had been trying to get her attention for a while to come off, so I suppose Black was looking at Miller while she was coming off instead of Stecklein skating up ice.
At the UMD site in the game recap from Sunday vs OSU, Shannon is still saying that their goal is to get to the Frozen Four. Seems pretty unlikely to me, but she's done it many times before so I suppose she has more credibility than most saying it out loud.
I can't say I am rooting for them to do it, but it would be a pretty crazy scene if they did.
Also, I thought they executed a good game plan very well in the second game against the Gophers a couple weeks ago, except for poor Kayla Black skating off the ice while Lee Stecklein had possession of the puck. The girl sitting in front of me said Miller had been trying to get her attention for a while to come off, so I suppose Black was looking at Miller while she was coming off instead of Stecklein skating up ice.