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Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

pokechecker said:
LOL
she won in 2001, 2, & 3
Halldorson won in 2000, 4, & 5
then Johnson began winning ...
if she built a dynasty, so did Halldorson & Johnson

so Miller brought in a bunch of ringers
it would be like UMD 30 years ago hiring a European coach for soccer and the coach brought in a bunch of European & players from the rest of the world
should we be amazed by Miller?
judging from the people who showed up over the years to watch the team play, I'd say not
Duluth certainly isn't impressed

Greece, Rome, British, Egyptian, .... all dynasties come to an end
Halldorson left on her terms, with a job and respect
Click to expand...

A little touchy aren't we?

I'll just remind you that the conversation and this thread are about Miller, not other coaches.

You been hanging out down at the bar with Eeyore?
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Blackbeard said:
A little touchy aren't we?

I'll just remind you that the conversation and this thread are about Miller, not other coaches.

You been hanging out down at the bar with Eeyore?
Click to expand...
If you're going to make claims of supernatural abilities...leaving other coaches in the dust better be prepared for some specific comparisons to other coaches. An assertion of leaving contemporaries in the dust is you opening the door for references to those other coaches.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Blackbeard said:
A little touchy aren't we?
Click to expand...

you should talk
1st you got all riled up because I said "we defeated the nazis" and you assumed I was referring to only the US
then you got all riled up because a Gopher goalie took some pride in talking up her team's defense ( whose losses over the past 3 years can be counted on one hand)
now you get bent out of shape because I placed MN & WI (big difference is that MN & WI are still a dynasty) in the same class as having a dynasty as UMD (whose days are over)

you & Miller are two peas in a pod

Miller is being schight canned because she didn't have the sense to leave
get over it
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

brookyone said:
If you're going to make claims of supernatural abilities...leaving other coaches in the dust better be prepared for some specific comparisons to other coaches. An assertion of leaving contemporaries in the dust is you opening the door for references to those other coaches.
Click to expand...

I was referring to her first few years and then her adding a couple more by 2010 for good measure. It was not a condemnation of other coaches who have since 2004 shown their stuff thereby adding themselves to the ranks of very accomplished coaches. Other than that your point is well taken.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

pokechecker said:
you should talk
1st you got all riled up because I said "we defeated the nazis" and you assumed I was referring to only the US
then you got all riled up because a Gopher goalie took some pride in talking up her team's defense ( whose losses over the past 3 years can be counted on one hand)
now you get bent out of shape because I placed MN & WI (big difference is that MN & WI are still a dynasty) in the same class as having a dynasty as UMD (whose days are over)

you & Miller are two peas in a pod

Miller is being schight canned because she didn't have the sense to leave
get over it
Click to expand...


Wow.

First, I suggest you go back and read your post. Your words were "our country defeated the Nazi's". Of course you were talking about just the US. Unless you're now going to tell me that you're an international citizen with multiple passports, one for each country that was part of the Allied effort in WW2.

Secondly, "all riled up" about a comment your team's goalie made? I simply mentioned that I thought that it was an arrogant statement based on her wording and acknowledged that she was still young but that it was disappointing. Arm then pointed out that her comments had been edited, implying that maybe that's not exactly what she had said.

Lastly, "bent out of shape" because you brought up UW and UM? I simply reminded you that the conversation was about Miller...I was addressing Eeyore's post about Miller...we were discussing Miller.

So, again, I'm talking about apples and you start talking about oranges as if that has any relevance with respect to what I was addressing.

Then you toss in an insult for good measure, the shining diplomat that you are for your favourite team.

And your last comment shows that you are not following along, again. I am neither for nor against Miller. I have tried to be objective about the situation as the facts have presented themselves. I suggest that you attempt to do the same.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

UMD alum and long time follower here. A few thoughts.

UMD is certainly within their rights to not renew a contract and Miller's was a bit pricey. That said, her offer to renegotiate, if made in good faith and not acted on by UMD, undermines UMD's standing that this was driven by financial considerations. Even then UMD still seems to be within their rights to not renew the contract anyway. Miller's past success was always going to make it hard to let her go, though the relative lack of recent success makes it a little easier. UMD could and should have been clearer on why her contract is not being renewed, beyond financial considerations that are a bit clouded. Saying nothing more than that they think the program needs a new direction given the lack of success in recent years and issues Miller has had come up at times would have been helpful. I've enjoyed UMD's success over the years but have cringed a bit here and there when Miller has had issues come up. It was always going to get harder for UMD as other programs got stronger. Miller's international recruiting angle was great and paid big dividends for awhile, but that edge she had isn't what it once was and it has seemed that UMD has struggled a bit to stay competitive with the top teams. I can't say I'm impressed with how either side is handling themselves through this process. And I doubt it will get better as both sides lawyer up. Too bad, as this could have been handled so much better all the way around. But, this seems to be how our society all too often is these days. :(
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

"she won in 2001, 2, & 3
Halldorson won in 2000, 4, & 5
then Johnson began winning ...
if she built a dynasty, so did Halldorson & Johnson

so Miller brought in a bunch of ringers
it would be like UMD 30 years ago hiring a European coach for soccer and the coach brought in a bunch of European & players from the rest of the world
should we be amazed by Miller?
judging from the people who showed up over the years to watch the team play, I'd say not
Duluth certainly isn't impressed"

I would agree that there is a significant amount of Duluth and the surrounding area that is not impressed. As has been stated, when Women's NCAA hockey was in it's growth phase, she successfully used her familiarity with the international scene to rapidly build a program from nothing, while largely ignoring the domestic front, and specifically ignoring the Northern Minnesota arenas. She was fortunate to have a Chancellor who turned into her biggest supporter, but who is no longer at the University. Not surprisingly, there are believable rumors that Shannon tried to "convince" the outgoing Chancellor at the time to give her a "life-time" contract, but instead wound up with a contract that made her the highest paid Women's Hockey coach in the country, by a significant margin.

That being said, and with a successful record that was built on the back of a sport that was just emerging while she was rattling off championships, I think it is also significant, that her record against her BIG 3 competition, UM, UW, and UND, is something in the ballpark of 3-28-7, or something close to that, over the past 3 years. That alone, should have been the reason UMD gave for not renewing her contract, and it would most likely have been met with hardly a ripple.

Lastly, ironically, for all the support from the GLBT community for her out spoken support of gay rights, as an openly out gay female, I am surprised that there hasn't been more discussion about the apparent lack of any non-gay members of her staff. I find it somewhat lacking in equality when all 4 members of her staff are all openly recognized as gay or bisexual females, yet, I find it hard to believe that there weren't also qualified straight candidates available? Reverse discrimination possibly waiting to be reared as this debacle nears legal arenas?
 
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Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

wchaforever said:
Lastly, ironically, for all the support from the GLBT community for her out spoken support of gay rights, as an openly out gay female, I am surprised that there hasn't been more discussion about the apparent lack of any non-gay members of her staff. I find it somewhat lacking in equality when all 4 members of her staff are all openly recognized as gay or bisexual females, yet, I find it hard to believe that there weren't also qualified straight candidates available? Reverse discrimination possibly waiting to be reared as this debacle nears legal arenas?
Click to expand...

You probably don't want to open that can of worms.

And I probably shouldn't respond further but oh well

How many other openly gay coaches are employed by UMD?

I would also liken it to the fact that how many men's teams have female coaches on the bench? Why are males preferred over females for coaching men's teams?
 
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Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

gojackets said:
You probably don't want to open that can of worms.

And I probably shouldn't respond further but oh well

How many other openly gay coaches are employed by UMD?

I would also liken it to the fact that how many men's teams have female coaches on the bench? Why are males preferred over females for coaching men's teams?
Click to expand...

I debated and debated with myself about going down that road as well, because I was afraid it was going to detract from my previous paragraph and the more compelling reason why, if I was UMD, I would have used it as the justification for parting ways with Shannon Miller. At this point, Shannon is the ONLY one who has opened the gay door in her arguments. Is it even remotely possible that UMD has faced scrutiny from non-gay applicants who may have been passed over for Millers assistant and support positions? That was the reverse discrimination angle I was curious about. I EXTREMELY doubt it, because #1, I'm assuming she has carte blanche over hiring a monkey as an assistant if she wants too, and #2, I don't think any one can argue that her assistants aren't top notch.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

wchaforever said:
"she won in 2001, 2, & 3
Halldorson won in 2000, 4, & 5
then Johnson began winning ...
if she built a dynasty, so did Halldorson & Johnson

so Miller brought in a bunch of ringers
it would be like UMD 30 years ago hiring a European coach for soccer and the coach brought in a bunch of European & players from the rest of the world
should we be amazed by Miller?
judging from the people who showed up over the years to watch the team play, I'd say not
Duluth certainly isn't impressed"

I would agree that there is a significant amount of Duluth and the surrounding area that is not impressed. As has been stated, when Women's NCAA hockey was in it's growth phase, she successfully used her familiarity with the international scene to rapidly build a program from nothing, while largely ignoring the domestic front, and specifically ignoring the Northern Minnesota arenas. She was fortunate to have a Chancellor who turned into her biggest supporter, but who is no longer at the University. Not surprisingly, there are believable rumors that Shannon tried to "convince" the outgoing Chancellor at the time to give her a "life-time" contract, but instead wound up with a contract that made her the highest paid Women's Hockey coach in the country, by a significant margin.

That being said, and with a successful record that was built on the back of a sport that was just emerging while she was rattling off championships, I think it is also significant, that her record against her BIG 3 competition, UM, UW, and UND, is something in the ballpark of 3-28-7, or something close to that, over the past 3 years. That alone, should have been the reason UMD gave for not renewing her contract, and it would most likely have been met with hardly a ripple.

Lastly, ironically, for all the support from the GLBT community for her out spoken support of gay rights, as an openly out gay female, I am surprised that there hasn't been more discussion about the apparent lack of any non-gay members of her staff. I find it somewhat lacking in equality when all 4 members of her staff are all openly recognized as gay or bisexual females, yet, I find it hard to believe that there weren't also qualified straight candidates available? Reverse discrimination possibly waiting to be reared as this debacle nears legal arenas?
Click to expand...

What a great post!!!
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

I previously suggested that UMD might end up throwing more cash into this ever widening financial black hole than they could ever hope to save on Miller's salary and that of her assistants.

Well, here we go.

I wonder how much the loss of enrollment and the new "let's find out what we're really all about" study conducted by a "nationally known consultant" is going to cost them?

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/02/20/coach-firing-impact
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Blackbeard said:
I previously suggested that UMD might end up throwing more cash into this ever widening financial black hole than they could ever hope to save on Miller's salary and that of her assistants.

Well, here we go.

I wonder how much the loss of enrollment and the new "let's find out what we're really all about" study conducted by a "nationally known consultant" is going to cost them?

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/02/20/coach-firing-impact
Click to expand...

I'm having a hard time following your "here we go" statement in relationship to this article? Are you suggesting steep enrollment declines from this pulling of support? If the declaration of a gay friendly campus was such a boon, can you explain the decline in enrollment over the past 3 years that led to the need for budget cuts? I must be missing something either in your post or the analogy.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

wchaforever said:
I'm having a hard time following your "here we go" statement in relationship to this article? Are you suggesting steep enrollment declines from this pulling of support? If the declaration of a gay friendly campus was such a boon, can you explain the decline in enrollment over the past 3 years that led to the need for budget cuts? I must be missing something either in your post or the analogy.
Click to expand...

The article implies that there will most likely be a decline in enrollment, as a result of the change in support, from this community of potential students many of which are from MSP. I have no idea about whether there would be "steep enrollment declines" but whatever they might be they will be and will result in a loss of revenue to UMD. (How does one ever come up with a definite number for such a thing?)

You seem to be making the assumption that this community of students is enough to make or break the financials for UMD which I certainly have no idea about. I don't think that one can somehow arrive at that conclusion from the article. My only point was as described above.

I did think that the study that they've commissioned was a more tangible example of what I had suggested since they will eventually know, if they don't already, exactly what that will cost them and it sounds like UMD is on the defensive and starting to put out fires, meaning that I didn't get the impression that this study would occur or even be contemplated if the dustup with Miller had not happened and was not giving UMD such unwanted negative PR. So, what's that study going to cost them? $10K, 20K, 50K or more? Whatever it is, they can deduct that amount off the saving from the reduction in the salaries for the coaching staff.

Now, I realize that the cost of the study is a one time expense and that any potential savings with respect to the salaries of the coaching staff is one that would accrue to UMD and keep recurring over the long term. But I don't think that the disingenuous wizards at UMD who are responsible for this PR nightmare contemplated any of these unintended consequences. As I've previously mentioned, you can now add legal fees to their tab. My point being that any potential benefit that these geniuses had concluded would be accruing to them after having done their "guzzintas" like Jethro Bodine, will be a lot longer in materializing thereby making the "wisdom" of their decision that much less compelling. And while all this is playing out, time just allows for who knows how many more unintended consequences to rear their ugly heads giving these guys that much more reason to question, if not regret, their initial decision.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Blackbeard said:
The article implies that there will most likely be a decline in enrollment, as a result of the change in support, from this community of potential students many of which are from MSP. I have no idea about whether there would be "steep enrollment declines" but whatever they might be they will be and will result in a loss of revenue to UMD. (How does one ever come up with a definite number for such a thing?)

You seem to be making the assumption that this community of students is enough to make or break the financials for UMD which I certainly have no idea about. I don't think that one can somehow arrive at that conclusion from the article.
Click to expand...

My apologies for not being a little clearer. I believe just the opposite...that the impact on enrollment by losing this declaration would be minimal, if even recognizable at all. I need to point out that I am as liberal as the day is long in summer in Northern Sweden, and fully support equality in any manifestation, and don't want my questioning of the gay issue to cloud what I feel is a bigger, but probably still not publicized, reason for this action. Money, I agree, it was not, but nor do I believe it was Shannon's sexual orientation, UNLESS it is reverse discriminatory.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

wchaforever said:
My apologies for not being a little clearer. I believe just the opposite...that the impact on enrollment by losing this declaration would be minimal, if even recognizable at all. I need to point out that I am as liberal as the day is long in summer in Northern Sweden, and fully support equality in any manifestation, and don't want my questioning of the gay issue to cloud what I feel is a bigger, but probably still not publicized, reason for this action. Money, I agree, it was not, but nor do I believe it was Shannon's sexual orientation, UNLESS it is reverse discriminatory.
Click to expand...

And you may be absolutely correct on both counts.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

just when you think it has gotten as bizarre as it can get ....

interesting that a national organization which likely knows next to nothing about UMD would side with Miller over the LGBT students who attend there, and those who would like to attend

Angie Nichols, UMD's director of GLBT Services, acknowledges the university has made great strides in improving the campus climate since she opened the office in 2000."

sounds to me like an endorsement of UMD policy, maybe the national organization should have checked with Nichols first?

Miller said she believes Campus Pride made the appropriate move. "Although it's another damaging situation for UMD," she said, "it may be necessary to create positive change."

so the campus director of LGBT services says that the campus has been moving in the right direction for 15 years
Miller says otherwise

who should we believe??
 
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Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

pokechecker said:
so the campus director of LGBT services says that the campus has been moving in the right direction for 15 years
Miller says otherwise

who should we believe??
Click to expand...

Who knows? They both have ulterior motives. And when disputes are played out in the public arena the combatants usually seize every opportunity that comes their way to influence the court of public opinion (and potentially get inside their opponent's head and mess with it) especially after they've done lawyered up.
 
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