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Shannon Miller out at UMD?
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Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
A sign behind the UMD bench during tonight's game says "Gophers Support Shannon Miller!"
A sign behind the UMD bench during tonight's game says "Gophers Support Shannon Miller!"
Of course they do. She's only beaten them once in the last 3-4 years.
Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Did you see that picture of her in the cover of the article? If looks could kill, she'd be a mass murderer. It seems to match her persona to a T.
I didn't find any earth-shattering info in the comments or the article. Some people didn't understand the difference between getting fired and not having a contract renewed. Miller doesn't even understand it.
Did you see that picture of her in the cover of the article? If looks could kill, she'd be a mass murderer. It seems to match her persona to a T.
I didn't find any earth-shattering info in the comments or the article. Some people didn't understand the difference between getting fired and not having a contract renewed. Miller doesn't even understand it.
Thank you. It really doesn't make any sense to me. She has high profile people supporting her so there is obviously something there, but it's way too high above my pay grade to figure out. I'll just grab another bowl of popcorn and wait for the next act to begin.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
I have been going to women's hockey games since 1998 and have seen Miller behind the bench at least 50 times. If I exclude NCAA games, where she seems to behave very well, I can only think of maybe 5 where I have not witnessed a tantrum and/or bad behaviour on her part. Lecturing the refs for 10 minutes while the zamboni driver waits to resurfaced for the next period, same thing but with players, tossing gatorade onto the ice, refusing post-game handshakes (for a time she had to whole team refusing) and screaming fits when calls did not go her way. Last night we got none of that, which was nice for a change.
She had a couple of "good opportunities" too. There was a penalty against the Gophers that she felt might have deserved 5, the Bulldog initiated contact, it was a check but she caught the Gopher stick up high. The Bulldog threw herself on the ice and grabbed her throat, it was a great act and the sort of show that would have normally set off major fireworks from Miller. Instead she expressed displeasure but only far a second like most coaches would.
I have been going to women's hockey games since 1998 and have seen Miller behind the bench at least 50 times. If I exclude NCAA games, where she seems to behave very well, I can only think of maybe 5 where I have not witnessed a tantrum and/or bad behaviour on her part. Lecturing the refs for 10 minutes while the zamboni driver waits to resurfaced for the next period, same thing but with players, tossing gatorade onto the ice, refusing post-game handshakes (for a time she had to whole team refusing) and screaming fits when calls did not go her way. Last night we got none of that, which was nice for a change.
She had a couple of "good opportunities" too. There was a penalty against the Gophers that she felt might have deserved 5, the Bulldog initiated contact, it was a check but she caught the Gopher stick up high. The Bulldog threw herself on the ice and grabbed her throat, it was a great act and the sort of show that would have normally set off major fireworks from Miller. Instead she expressed displeasure but only far a second like most coaches would.
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pokechecker
Banned
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
she's also on record as saying she should be paid the same as the men's coach, she's also said she'd only come back if the AD was gone, ....
the tune she plays varies with the day, what is the over under on her making a statement on MLK Day to comparing herself to being a slave or a black person in the South during the Jim Crow days?
UMD would have been idiotic to have renewed her with a paycut, then she'd REALLY have a beef about pay
BTW, can anybody think of another instance where a coach has filed a lawsuit over their contact not being renewed?
if anybody should sue it is the parents of the players over the past 5 years, and the players, no doubt she alluded to creating Olympians and National Championships and claimed to have won regular season games she didn't
sounds like false advertising, broken promises, ....
she's also on record as saying she should be paid the same as the men's coach, she's also said she'd only come back if the AD was gone, ....
the tune she plays varies with the day, what is the over under on her making a statement on MLK Day to comparing herself to being a slave or a black person in the South during the Jim Crow days?
UMD would have been idiotic to have renewed her with a paycut, then she'd REALLY have a beef about pay
BTW, can anybody think of another instance where a coach has filed a lawsuit over their contact not being renewed?
if anybody should sue it is the parents of the players over the past 5 years, and the players, no doubt she alluded to creating Olympians and National Championships and claimed to have won regular season games she didn't
sounds like false advertising, broken promises, ....
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Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Mostly rehashed info but a couple of new points with respect to legal precedent, apparently.
http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/02/13/shannon-miller
Mostly rehashed info but a couple of new points with respect to legal precedent, apparently.
http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/02/13/shannon-miller
Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
The answer to your question might lie in the chronology.
She was first told that money was tight to which she offered to discuss a reduced salary and was definitely lead to believe that such a discussion would take place at a later date and that an agreement would be reached. Instead of that discussion taking place, as she was lead to believe, she was instead later told that her contract would not be renewed because they couldn't afford to keep paying her at her present salary.
So, it's a matter of degrees. She was willing to cooperate when they told her that finances were tight. But when they ambushed her and boldly stepped over the "negotiating in good faith" line, at which time she was presented with their ridiculous logic and the loss of her job, the parameters changed and she had a decision to make.
What seems to be missing in the arguments that all the Miller bashers have been making by suggesting she should just shut up and go home like a good little girl and "show some class" is the component of principle. Whether you love her or hate her, she was clearly ambushed. The bashers should take that into consideration as well as the question that begs to be asked at that point which is, do you stand up and be counted for principles or cave like most people would and go home with your tail between your legs because, well, that's just so much more convenient?
Everything flows from the ambush and I would suggest that if it should make its way to court there is a very good possibility that the court would see it that way as well.
Your question can easily be reversed, as it has been, as follows: After telling your employee that finances are tight and having her cooperate by clearly indicating that she is willing to discuss a decrease in salary to which you lead her to believe that you will later discuss that with her and that you're sure that an agreement can be reached, how can you then not only not have that discussion with her but then rationalize telling your employee that you are not renewing her contract because you can't afford to pay her at her present salary? UMD's position is beyond stupid. It stinks to high heaven and they look like absolute clowns.
The answer to your question might lie in the chronology.
She was first told that money was tight to which she offered to discuss a reduced salary and was definitely lead to believe that such a discussion would take place at a later date and that an agreement would be reached. Instead of that discussion taking place, as she was lead to believe, she was instead later told that her contract would not be renewed because they couldn't afford to keep paying her at her present salary.
So, it's a matter of degrees. She was willing to cooperate when they told her that finances were tight. But when they ambushed her and boldly stepped over the "negotiating in good faith" line, at which time she was presented with their ridiculous logic and the loss of her job, the parameters changed and she had a decision to make.
What seems to be missing in the arguments that all the Miller bashers have been making by suggesting she should just shut up and go home like a good little girl and "show some class" is the component of principle. Whether you love her or hate her, she was clearly ambushed. The bashers should take that into consideration as well as the question that begs to be asked at that point which is, do you stand up and be counted for principles or cave like most people would and go home with your tail between your legs because, well, that's just so much more convenient?
Everything flows from the ambush and I would suggest that if it should make its way to court there is a very good possibility that the court would see it that way as well.
Your question can easily be reversed, as it has been, as follows: After telling your employee that finances are tight and having her cooperate by clearly indicating that she is willing to discuss a decrease in salary to which you lead her to believe that you will later discuss that with her and that you're sure that an agreement can be reached, how can you then not only not have that discussion with her but then rationalize telling your employee that you are not renewing her contract because you can't afford to pay her at her present salary? UMD's position is beyond stupid. It stinks to high heaven and they look like absolute clowns.
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
People around the league say essentially the same thing, along the lines of, "It's too bad, because she really is a good coach." Upon further discussion, it becomes clear that what is meant is not that it is too bad that UMD has chosen to go in a different direction, but rather that the coaching ability comes with so much other baggage that makes one question why you'd want to employ her.
You're assuming that the situation is exactly as Miller has described it. Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't, but there are usually at least two sides to any story, and so far, Miller is the only one who has publicly aired most of the information.
People around the league say essentially the same thing, along the lines of, "It's too bad, because she really is a good coach." Upon further discussion, it becomes clear that what is meant is not that it is too bad that UMD has chosen to go in a different direction, but rather that the coaching ability comes with so much other baggage that makes one question why you'd want to employ her.
Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Of course, assuming what she has said is an accurate retelling of the story. However, she would be pretty stupid to do otherwise having decided to go global with it. The best position you can have is to have truth on your side.
Your second paragraph, while possibly being the case, has nothing to do with the question that I was addressing but with respect to it one would have to wonder, if this made its way to court, if this "baggage" that everyone seems to like to highlight might not be offset, and possibly even trumped, by the fact that on an extremely important issue ie: her salary...she didn't hesitate to indicate her willingness to cooperate with respect to discussing a decrease. Looks like a team player and I doubt that that would be lost on the court or even better, the jury. (In the previous article that I posted it alludes to a jury in Title IX cases...so, if a jury was involved, I would think that would benefit Miller). Again, that's assuming she retold the story accurately and these particular details somehow become part of the court proceedings.
Of course, assuming what she has said is an accurate retelling of the story. However, she would be pretty stupid to do otherwise having decided to go global with it. The best position you can have is to have truth on your side.
Your second paragraph, while possibly being the case, has nothing to do with the question that I was addressing but with respect to it one would have to wonder, if this made its way to court, if this "baggage" that everyone seems to like to highlight might not be offset, and possibly even trumped, by the fact that on an extremely important issue ie: her salary...she didn't hesitate to indicate her willingness to cooperate with respect to discussing a decrease. Looks like a team player and I doubt that that would be lost on the court or even better, the jury. (In the previous article that I posted it alludes to a jury in Title IX cases...so, if a jury was involved, I would think that would benefit Miller). Again, that's assuming she retold the story accurately and these particular details somehow become part of the court proceedings.
FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
It's like reading an article written from a talking points memo put out by Miller's Propaganda machine.
It's like reading an article written from a talking points memo put out by Miller's Propaganda machine.
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
I'm not saying she's necessarily lying about it, exactly. On several occasions, her post-game comments have been on the order of, "We had all the best chances and controlled play, but we just couldn't get a bounce." I realize coaches say such things a lot, but she'll do so after her team has lost by a number of goals. I always got the feeling that she really believed it, but it left me wondering what game she had been watching.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Are you really that ignorant of the way these sorts of things play out? People in similar situations have lied often. Sure, in theory it can be (though isn't always, depending upon your objectives) to mislead in your public statements but the empirical evidence is that there are a lot of individuals who don't let that get in the way of doing so. Being an empiricist, I tend to toss the theory when it conflicts with the evidence and so I retain a certain degree of skepticism about public statements in a conflict.
And that's aside from ARM's point about the fact that there are any events that can honestly be interpreted in different ways and so you shouldn't just rely upon one person's version even if she is speaking entirely in good faith.
Are you really that ignorant of the way these sorts of things play out? People in similar situations have lied often. Sure, in theory it can be (though isn't always, depending upon your objectives) to mislead in your public statements but the empirical evidence is that there are a lot of individuals who don't let that get in the way of doing so. Being an empiricist, I tend to toss the theory when it conflicts with the evidence and so I retain a certain degree of skepticism about public statements in a conflict.
And that's aside from ARM's point about the fact that there are any events that can honestly be interpreted in different ways and so you shouldn't just rely upon one person's version even if she is speaking entirely in good faith.
Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
You really need to pay attention. Maybe you should reread my post. Where did I claim that people don't often lie? Speaking of which, that is exactly what UMD has already done by initially insisting that it was strictly a financial decision and then Black's later letting it slip that it wasn't. I guess you missed that. And nothing Miller has said has been refuted to date...certainly not by UMD. So, for now, Miller has the moral high ground.
And while ARM's point about people's perceptions often colouring their account of a matter is true, (it's just human nature, unfortunately), the apparent details before the ambush aren't so many as to create a complicated narrative. And the fact that she came forward with this just days after it occurred minimizes, if not eliminates, the passage of time in which her memory of the events might be realistically challenged.
Could she be lying? Of course she could...she might be a sociopath...but until that becomes obvious, if ever, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt...innocent until proven guilty. Do you remember that one?
There's also more going on here that no one has yet commented on if they are even aware of it. Some bashers have claimed/pointed to her ego...possibly, rightfully so, but that's a slippery slope because the difference between extreme confidence and egotism is a very thin light grey line. But let's assume for the sake of argument that the egoists have it. She doesn't have that ego for no good reason...for having a 15 year losing record. She, overnight, built a dynasty and left all of her contemporaries in the dust. She prides herself on commitment to excellence and she tries to instill that in her players.
Have you ever had a tour of the 'Dogs' facilities at The Amsoil? If not, I would strongly recommend it. Everywhere are reminders of the greatness of the program, the tradition, the constant striving to achieve excellence and the resulting successes. This full colour graphic historic record of the program permeates the fabric of the team's mindset and as such is both a conscious and unconscious motivator. Miller also sees herself as being a role model for her players. To the extent that she's an egotist should also be the extent to which she buys in to her own promotion of the program to her players. In other words, buys into the narrative of the pursuit of the higher ideals that normally go hand in hand with being champions. And this is not something that just started occurring yesterday. It's been going on for over a decade coinciding with the tenure of her success. To knowingly lie about the details of her situation with UMD would also mean that she would have to face the fact that she's nothing but a cheap fraud by virtue of having violated all the higher ideals she has attempted to instill in her players for years. That's what consciences are for...for preventing us from violating our personal code of ethics...for keeping us true to ourselves. It's no small task to have to reconcile that with yourself once you've violated it because there's no going back.
And it's not like this is just a private squabble between two entities. As public as it would have been on its own, she has voluntarily elevated it to the global arena with all of its resulting scrutiny.
So, it's also for these reasons that I give her the benefit of the doubt. Could I be wrong? Of course I could be wrong. But I don't think that the smart money would bet that way.
And if you were to ever sit down with her and have a lengthy conversation you would soon discover that there is quite a difference between her public persona (at least how some perceive it) and her daily personality, certainly enough to cause you to examine your quick to judge negative/cynical opinion.
I'm a realist and have no problem being a cynic when the evidence is overwhelming because that is still being a realist...so I more than follow your thinking. It's just that I think that your "empiricist" attitude is not warranted in this particular situation, at least not yet.
You really need to pay attention. Maybe you should reread my post. Where did I claim that people don't often lie? Speaking of which, that is exactly what UMD has already done by initially insisting that it was strictly a financial decision and then Black's later letting it slip that it wasn't. I guess you missed that. And nothing Miller has said has been refuted to date...certainly not by UMD. So, for now, Miller has the moral high ground.
And while ARM's point about people's perceptions often colouring their account of a matter is true, (it's just human nature, unfortunately), the apparent details before the ambush aren't so many as to create a complicated narrative. And the fact that she came forward with this just days after it occurred minimizes, if not eliminates, the passage of time in which her memory of the events might be realistically challenged.
Could she be lying? Of course she could...she might be a sociopath...but until that becomes obvious, if ever, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt...innocent until proven guilty. Do you remember that one?
There's also more going on here that no one has yet commented on if they are even aware of it. Some bashers have claimed/pointed to her ego...possibly, rightfully so, but that's a slippery slope because the difference between extreme confidence and egotism is a very thin light grey line. But let's assume for the sake of argument that the egoists have it. She doesn't have that ego for no good reason...for having a 15 year losing record. She, overnight, built a dynasty and left all of her contemporaries in the dust. She prides herself on commitment to excellence and she tries to instill that in her players.
Have you ever had a tour of the 'Dogs' facilities at The Amsoil? If not, I would strongly recommend it. Everywhere are reminders of the greatness of the program, the tradition, the constant striving to achieve excellence and the resulting successes. This full colour graphic historic record of the program permeates the fabric of the team's mindset and as such is both a conscious and unconscious motivator. Miller also sees herself as being a role model for her players. To the extent that she's an egotist should also be the extent to which she buys in to her own promotion of the program to her players. In other words, buys into the narrative of the pursuit of the higher ideals that normally go hand in hand with being champions. And this is not something that just started occurring yesterday. It's been going on for over a decade coinciding with the tenure of her success. To knowingly lie about the details of her situation with UMD would also mean that she would have to face the fact that she's nothing but a cheap fraud by virtue of having violated all the higher ideals she has attempted to instill in her players for years. That's what consciences are for...for preventing us from violating our personal code of ethics...for keeping us true to ourselves. It's no small task to have to reconcile that with yourself once you've violated it because there's no going back.
And it's not like this is just a private squabble between two entities. As public as it would have been on its own, she has voluntarily elevated it to the global arena with all of its resulting scrutiny.
So, it's also for these reasons that I give her the benefit of the doubt. Could I be wrong? Of course I could be wrong. But I don't think that the smart money would bet that way.
And if you were to ever sit down with her and have a lengthy conversation you would soon discover that there is quite a difference between her public persona (at least how some perceive it) and her daily personality, certainly enough to cause you to examine your quick to judge negative/cynical opinion.
I'm a realist and have no problem being a cynic when the evidence is overwhelming because that is still being a realist...so I more than follow your thinking. It's just that I think that your "empiricist" attitude is not warranted in this particular situation, at least not yet.
FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
So is this considered a good thing? Isn't it more "genuine" to be who you are regardless of the circumstances not a difference persona, as you say, from private to public?
So is this considered a good thing? Isn't it more "genuine" to be who you are regardless of the circumstances not a difference persona, as you say, from private to public?
Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
I did say "at least how some perceive it" and that was what I was referring to. I would think that those who know her a bit don't have the same negative perception of the "public" persona as many others seem to.
I did say "at least how some perceive it" and that was what I was referring to. I would think that those who know her a bit don't have the same negative perception of the "public" persona as many others seem to.
Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
It's a bad thing. It's called Bi-Polar. Or George Costanzaitis. How many people do you know who act differently in private or public, at work or at home? One is a lie/act and one is the truth. Just look at that picture in that article. She could have had a nice smile/pose that conveyed a warmth that would evoke sympathetic feelings for her. Instead, she has a "don't F with me and my trophies" pose.
Did/is UMD handling this right 100%? No. I would not have given a reason to her or anyone. The contract is expiring, they legally don't owe her or anyone else an explanation. If they were firing her, then you have to make a case that will stand up in court for sure.
It's a bad thing. It's called Bi-Polar. Or George Costanzaitis. How many people do you know who act differently in private or public, at work or at home? One is a lie/act and one is the truth. Just look at that picture in that article. She could have had a nice smile/pose that conveyed a warmth that would evoke sympathetic feelings for her. Instead, she has a "don't F with me and my trophies" pose.
Did/is UMD handling this right 100%? No. I would not have given a reason to her or anyone. The contract is expiring, they legally don't owe her or anyone else an explanation. If they were firing her, then you have to make a case that will stand up in court for sure.
pokechecker
Banned
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
LOL
she won in 2001, 2, & 3
Halldorson won in 2000, 4, & 5
then Johnson began winning ...
if she built a dynasty, so did Halldorson & Johnson
so Miller brought in a bunch of ringers
it would be like UMD 30 years ago hiring a European coach for soccer and the coach brought in a bunch of European & players from the rest of the world
should we be amazed by Miller?
judging from the people who showed up over the years to watch the team play, I'd say not
Duluth certainly isn't impressed
Greece, Rome, British, Egyptian, .... all dynasties come to an end
Halldorson left on her terms, with a job and respect
LOL
she won in 2001, 2, & 3
Halldorson won in 2000, 4, & 5
then Johnson began winning ...
if she built a dynasty, so did Halldorson & Johnson
so Miller brought in a bunch of ringers
it would be like UMD 30 years ago hiring a European coach for soccer and the coach brought in a bunch of European & players from the rest of the world
should we be amazed by Miller?
judging from the people who showed up over the years to watch the team play, I'd say not
Duluth certainly isn't impressed
Greece, Rome, British, Egyptian, .... all dynasties come to an end
Halldorson left on her terms, with a job and respect
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