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Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

TonyTheTiger20 said:
Tell me about it; the only thing I own that says "women's hockey" on it is a Minnesota t-shirt.
That goes into the bottom of the closet come March.
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How can you wear that?!?!?!

When I wear any UW hockey jersey, men's or women's, people think it's some sort of football thing, though it looks nothing like a football jersey. Or I'll wear a T that specifically says "UW hockey" on it, and people gloss over the word "hockey" and start a conversation about the men's BB team. I guess what I'm saying is college hockey is quite off the radar to the genereal public and women's college hockey simply does not exist, though the Olympic coverage has helped over the years.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Timothy A said:
How can you wear that?!?!?!

When I wear any UW hockey jersey, men's or women's, people think it's some sort of football thing, though it looks nothing like a football jersey. Or I'll wear a T that specifically says "UW hockey" on it, and people gloss over the word "hockey" and start a conversation about the men's BB team. I guess what I'm saying is college hockey is quite off the radar to the genereal public and women's college hockey simply does not exist, though the Olympic coverage has helped over the years.
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I made peace with the fact that hockey is a fringe sport even here in Canada's southern province, Minnesota. The men's team Frozen Four appearance got second billing to the squeekball team winning in the round of 32 one year! Even the 41-0 national champs womens team didn't get that much attention locally. Thats just the way it is I guess.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Blackbeard said:
You seemed to previously imply that attendance was not your definition of support. I asked you if it wasn't then what was? I didn't get an answer from you. Have you changed your mind or if not then, I'll ask again, what do you consider to be support?
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I'm not sure how you got that idea, people showing up and buying a ticket is support, making a donation is support, buying clothing with the school name on it is support. Yes, exchange of money is constitutes support.

Posting on a thread from 1000 miles away, without any understanding of the issues, is not support.

UMD struggles to get 1000 in the arena unless a team like Minnesota shows up with their following of fans. When you have the most successfull college team in the world on the ice, and you only have a minimal following, it is time to look at your game plan, which is apparently what UMD has done.

I'm not sure what the controversy is all about, life will go on for both team & coach. 15 years is a long time for any coach.

who knows? maybe people will fill Amsoil, the team will win the WCHA and/or NCAA tournament and the AD will change his mind and give her a raise.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

On the discussion of apparel with "women's hockey" on it, for years I have worn my T-shirts or hoodies with UNH Women's Hockey on it, and was very bummed when the school gave the merchandising rights away, to an organization, that has nothing with women's hockey on it.....alas, over the years, in talking with the team, most of the players don't want the distinction defining "women's" on the garment....they simply want UNH Hockey....as I have noted before, they see themselves as athletes, no defining gender needed....while I understand their point of view, I want people to know that I support the women's game!
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

pokechecker said:
When you have the most successfull college team in the world on the ice, and you only have a minimal following, it is time to look at your game plan
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That's business basics and it's brutally logical.

I would think the "fault" lies with the university and its sports information department, if that is the appropriate department, in not capitalizing on the team's past success by marketing the hell out of it
locally and continuously. But, that takes money...maybe money they didn't have.

But, again, according to USCHO figures if the best attendance numbers in the country average 2000 per game (and assume no padding) and there are only 2 or 3 teams drawing better crowds that UMD on average, even if UMD would be able to match those numbers would that be enough? At $10 per game, which is the most expensive ticket (they are $6, $8 and $10 for the paying customers) that would be $10K more per game and $180K more per year. Or if you used the average of $8/game that would be $144K more per year. And more bodies in the stands should equate to more sales of women's hockey stuff at the sales shop in the arena. And that might spill over to the sales shop on campus. Does the team make anything from the concessions? If so, all the better.

But if history has shown that 2000 per game is the maximum one can expect and UMD is in trouble with around 1000 then, notwithstanding Miller's high end salary, (and it was also the UMD assistants whose contracts weren't renewed, not just Miller's) most every other program in the country must be in a similar situation because their coaching salaries are lower but so is their attendance. 20% of them average fewer than 100 per game and the next 28% of them average fewer than 200 per game.

http://www.uscho.com/stats/attendance/division-i-women/2014-2015/

Is women's hockey just a perennial loss leader? And if so, to what end?
 
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Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Blackbeard said:
Is women's hockey just a perennial loss leader? And if so, to what end?
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AS of now, yes. The end is that they have to pretend to care about womens sports for title IX and the football team is 100 players so they need as many womens sports teams as possible.

But don't kid yourself, no college football team makes money even with the obscene TV revenue. Basketball might at some schools because they only need 12 kids. All athletic departsments are money losers. The exist to try and syphon money from alums.

EDIT: BTW - ESPN estimates the average D-I ice hockey program costs $2.8 million a year so 2 or 3 hundred thousand is not gonna make or break any program.
 
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Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

ne7minder said:
All athletic departments are money losers. The exist to try and syphon money from alums.
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Apologies for going off-topic, but I had to share this anecdote. My father was extremely ticked when the Gopher athletic department tried to take away the season football tickets that had been my grandfather's (after my grandfather passed away) after U. of M. academic departments had asked for -- and received -- contributions from my grandfather's estate. My father filed a complaint and was allowed to retain the tickets, but he was told the academic departments and athletics were completely separate entities and in no way connected. :rolleyes:

I have since heard that season tickets are only transferable in the case of a death if they're in the deceased's will.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

CrazyDave said:
he was told the academic departments and athletics were completely separate entities and in no way connected. :rolleyes:

I have since heard that season tickets are only transferable in the case of a death if they're in the deceased's will.
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While I am extremely disappointed the hear your story I am, sadly, not surprised. Athletics has gotten completely out of hand and getting worse. Its getting to the point that the entire point of university is to support athletics. The experience is not Mens sana in corpore sano but mens infirma corpus infirma

To this U I am 10327. I do not think it means to me what they think it means to me.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

If the objective of intercollegiate athletics is to make money, someone tell me how much Yale women's squash team makes... or Minnesota men's golf, or Ohio State's rifle team, or Cornell's fencing team.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Blackbeard said:
That's business basics and it's brutally logical.

I would think the "fault" lies with the university and its sports information department, if that is the appropriate department, in not capitalizing on the team's past success by marketing the hell out of it
locally and continuously. But, that takes money...maybe money they didn't have.

But, again, according to USCHO figures if the best attendance numbers in the country average 2000 per game (and assume no padding) and there are only 2 or 3 teams drawing better crowds that UMD on average, even if UMD would be able to match those numbers would that be enough? At $10 per game, which is the most expensive ticket (they are $6, $8 and $10 for the paying customers) that would be $10K more per game and $180K more per year. Or if you used the average of $8/game that would be $144K more per year. And more bodies in the stands should equate to more sales of women's hockey stuff at the sales shop in the arena. And that might spill over to the sales shop on campus. Does the team make anything from the concessions? If so, all the better.

But if history has shown that 2000 per game is the maximum one can expect and UMD is in trouble with around 1000 then, notwithstanding Miller's high end salary, (and it was also the UMD assistants whose contracts weren't renewed, not just Miller's) most every other program in the country must be in a similar situation because their coaching salaries are lower but so is their attendance. 20% of them average fewer than 100 per game and the next 28% of them average fewer than 200 per game.

http://www.uscho.com/stats/attendance/division-i-women/2014-2015/

Is women's hockey just a perennial loss leader? And if so, to what end?
Click to expand...

excellent points and questions

first of all Miller was a rookie as far as being a college coach, so understanding anything beyond how to coach a team to victory, she should have been mentored (and possibly was), but don't kid yourself, putting fans in the stands IS the coaches job as is generating enthusiasm and support among fans/community in general. After 15 years you'd hope she would have learned this and become good at it, if not, then coaching college teams may not be her thing. Maybe the original AD and chancellor Martin were so giddy with the success of Miller they just plain forgot to follow up and see that she had the help and support she needed, or believed "build it and they will come". My only knowledge is anectodal 2nd & 3rd hand (at best) from relatives and friends who live there, some of whom grew up playing hockey in Duluth, attending UMD, and the men's games.

I'm wondering and interested myself to see what happens in Madison & Minneapolis. The Badgers seem to have taken the strategy (if indeed these is any strategy) to build a fan base with ridiculously low ticket prices in the hopes that eventually demand will allow them to increase prices. But even if they quadrupled prices they'd still be taking in less than $20K a game. Minnesota seems to be taking the strategy that if you get kids hooked early, they will attend games as adults and pay for a ticket instead of getting in free (and secondarily that there parents will continue to attend once their kids are grown). But again, even if Ridder were filled with adult full fare tickets, it would be about $30K a game. But that is real money that would at least pay the coaches and assistants salary (with some left for other expenses), unlike the present situation at UMD where the gate doesn't even pay Miller's salary let alone her assistants.

Is women's hockey a loss leader? It is easy to understand why the original eastern teams added hockey, the club teams already existed with students eager to make their sport fully sanctioned, so it was an easy way to add a sport for women rather than making it from scratch. It seems Minnesota added the sport at Universities simply because the demand was there and the 98 Olympic team added excitement about it, a perfect storm so to speak.
One thing is for sure, the people who go to the women's game are much different than the men's game (at least here in MN) students being the big difference, there are pretty much no university students at the game despite free admittance, while the men's game is a highly prized ticket. Can anybody really blame Michigan for not taking on an expensive sport like hockey given the state financial condition and changing demographics, which certainly isn't in the direction of hockey fans.
 
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Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

AggiesHockey said:
If the objective of intercollegiate athletics is to make money, someone tell me how much Yale women's squash team makes... or Minnesota men's golf, or Ohio State's rifle team, or Cornell's fencing team.
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I believe if you could see the real numbers football loses money everywhere but maybe 1 or 2 places (and maybe not even them). Some of those programs make up for it by vacuuming up cash from doddering alums but even the 8 figure TV revenue does not cover the actual cost of maintaining those programs. ADs love to pretend though & pressure the "non-revenue generating" programs. Sports are all just loss leaders for dear ol U, something to keep the name in public and with a little luck, generate buzz and donations.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Blackbeard said:
I would think the "fault" lies with the university and its sports information department, if that is the appropriate department, in not capitalizing on the team's past success by marketing the hell out of it locally and continuously...

And more bodies in the stands should equate to more sales of women's hockey stuff at the sales shop in the arena. And that might spill over to the sales shop on campus. Does the team make anything from the concessions? If so, all the better.
Click to expand...

I found it more than interesting that during tonight's game at Amsoil vs BSU that the "new" commentators (maybe Hansen was only temporarily indisposed?) with their enthusiasm and the decidedly fresh business feel to their broadcast (as in more professional than has been the case in the past) were pumping both the Bulldog shop in Amsoil and the one on campus repeatedly.

Maybe this is part of the new approach or direction of which the AD spoke before Christmas.
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

“What’s even more disturbing is if you don’t like the direction the program was going… It’s back on its way up to being a dynasty,” Miller said. “So when I read that, I thought, ‘What does that mean?’ We don’t have resources that other schools have. We have slipped a little bit because of resources, not coaching. We arguably have one of the greatest coaching staffs in the country and people know that. I thought to myself, ‘You don’t like the direction the program is going?’ Well we are back on our way up. When we got fired, we had won 12 of our last 13 games and were ranked No. 6 in the country.”
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The record cited is probably more impressive if you don't bother to look at the opponents.

But after all, you're dealing with the one who's endlessly impressed with herself.

Don't go away mad...

Silence broken.
 
Blackbeard said:
I found it more than interesting that during tonight's game at Amsoil vs BSU that the "new" commentators (maybe Hansen was only temporarily indisposed?) with their enthusiasm and the decidedly fresh business feel to their broadcast (as in more professional than has been the case in the past) were pumping both the Bulldog shop in Amsoil and the one on campus repeatedly.

Maybe this is part of the new approach or direction of which the AD spoke before Christmas.
Click to expand...

I believe that because the game was televised, that was the reason for the new announcers. They just use the same video feed for tv and the Internet broadcast. We'll find out for sure tomorrow when the game isn't televised
 
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

ne7minder said:
Just discovered this pre-season article in which Miller says she cut 7 players to get rid of them.

http://minnesotahockeymag.com/minnesota-duluth-womens-preview/
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Well, isn't that interesting. Just a few years prior she sat in those kids' living rooms telling them and their parents that she loved how they played the game, asked them to join her and she pledged to make them the best players on the ice and the best people off the ice. A few years later she tells them they aren't good enough, have a good time somewhere else. See yeah. That alone should be grounds for getting fired. I can understand where sometimes a player doesn't end up being what you thought, but axing 7 at one time? Pathetic.
 
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