Shannon Miller out at UMD?

[wwhyte]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Well, isn't that interesting. Just a few years prior she sat in those kids' living rooms telling them and their parents that she loved how they played the game, asked them to join her and she pledged to make them the best players on the ice and the best people off the ice. A few years later she tells them they aren't good enough, have a good time somewhere else. See yeah. That alone should be grounds for getting fired. I can understand where sometimes a player doesn't end up being what you thought, but axing 7 at one time? Pathetic.

A similar thing happened at Penn State at the start of this season. It was slightly more excusable because it was part of the transition to D-I, but at the same time it seems if anything worse to make players think they'll be a key part of the D-I adventure and then cut them loose.

 

[CrankIt]

Well, isn't that interesting. Just a few years prior she sat in those kids' living rooms telling them and their parents that she loved how they played the game, asked them to join her and she pledged to make them the best players on the ice and the best people off the ice. A few years later she tells them they aren't good enough, have a good time somewhere else. See yeah. That alone should be grounds for getting fired. I can understand where sometimes a player doesn't end up being what you thought, but axing 7 at one time? Pathetic.

There were never supposed to be 9 new players coming in, in the first place. A coach can't recruit players with the mindset that "oh I bet one of my seniors will need to redshirt due to injury." Originally, the number of newcomers was much, much smaller than thought. A few of the European players were held up a year by admissions. Heaven forbid a coach keep players in the program that aren't helping you win. A majority of you are chastising Miller for not having as successful of a program the last few years, yet she makes some decisions to improve the team and get more success and all of a sudden, that's not allowed?

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

There were never supposed to be 9 new players coming in, in the first place. A coach can't recruit players with the mindset that "oh I bet one of my seniors will need to redshirt due to injury." Originally, the number of newcomers was much, much smaller than thought. A few of the European players were held up a year by admissions. Heaven forbid a coach keep players in the program that aren't helping you win. A majority of you are chastising Miller for not having as successful of a program the last few years, yet she makes some decisions to improve the team and get more success and all of a sudden, that's not allowed?

if you took off the maroon & gold glasses (funded by the people of the state of MN) ....
when a coach places winning above all else, that is how she will be judged
when you have the most expensive coach in her sport, you should be #1, or darn close to it, #3 or 4 in the WCHA isn't good enough

hockey is the only D1 sport at UMD, it cannot be supported by football & basketball like at other schools that are D1 across the board
at OSU, for example, the women's program won't ever have to be in the black, or even close to it, if their football & basketball teams continue to bring in money like they have
UMD doesn't have that luxury

the original chancellor and AD that brought in Miller may have done the right thing for the short term
indeed it put UMD at the forefront, paying an ad agency the same amount of money wouldn't have bought them a fraction as much, for example
but like all athletes and coaches, what have you done for me lately?

UMD is on its way back up to being a dynasty?

maybe the original poster was referring to the old TV show Dynasty

 

[CrankIt]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

when a coach places winning above all else, that is how she will be judged

I would hardly say that Miller puts winning above all else. Again, if any of you would start forming opinions on Coach Miller outside of the three hours you see her coach on Friday/Saturday/Sunday nights you wouldn't be so quick to throw your insults around. Her job is to win and she's pretty **** good at it. But, she's also pretty **** good at developing human beings one they leave the university. UMD will be lucky to even have enough players to field a team next year. Many, many players are heavily considering leaving and that doesn't just happen when a Coach puts winning over everything. That happens when a coach genuinely cares about the success of her players as students, athletes, and people in general.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

It’s nice to see that she has such loyalty among her players
But if Apple can survive the death of Jobs, surely UMD will survive the loss of Miller
I would prefer she stay, the WCHA will not be the same without her
But unless the AD reconsiders, that is not going to happen, and I doubt it can given the circumstances
Back in 2009/10 the University-TC cut the number of classes offered to students to balance the budget.
Wasn’t exactly popular with students, or even seem to make sense
But those are the sort of decisions big organizations like the U of M make
Uncreative and unimaginative
The business as usual every other large organization makes
I’m sure the administration still serves complimentary tea and crumpets at their meeting
to decide to go with a lower grade of toilet paper
And reduce the number of janitors to save cost and balance the budget
And then debate ordering Mexican or Italian for the noon meeting

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

There were never supposed to be 9 new players coming in, in the first place. A coach can't recruit players with the mindset that "oh I bet one of my seniors will need to redshirt due to injury." Originally, the number of newcomers was much, much smaller than thought. A few of the European players were held up a year by admissions. Heaven forbid a coach keep players in the program that aren't helping you win. A majority of you are chastising Miller for not having as successful of a program the last few years, yet she makes some decisions to improve the team and get more success and all of a sudden, that's not allowed?

She threw the kids under the bus...."We had to make some changes because those people didn’t belong in our Division I program and it was hurting our chemistry and hurting our performance,” Miller said.

She recruited them, she brought them into her D1 program, she should be accountable if she screwed up on all of them (and if she screwed up on her eval of them, she should be fired for that, you can't miss on 7 players and be considered a good recruiter). Where's her commitment to them to help them become better players and improve team chemistry? If she's such a good coach, she could help them get better, that's her job. She's the head coach.

 

[CrankIt]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

She threw the kids under the bus...."We had to make some changes because those people didn’t belong in our Division I program and it was hurting our chemistry and hurting our performance,” Miller said.

She recruited them, she brought them into her D1 program, she should be accountable if she screwed up on all of them (and if she screwed up on her eval of them, she should be fired for that, you can't miss on 7 players and be considered a good recruiter). Where's her commitment to them to help them become better players and improve team chemistry? If she's such a good coach, she could help them get better, that's her job. She's the head coach.

For clarification, there are only 6 players that left. Four of which decided to continue playing college hockey.
Bramm-Penn State
Wright-Bemidji
Delarbre-Merrimack
Krause-Northeastern

If you're a player and you know that there is a large group of freshmen coming in and you know your playing time is going to be cut, you're not obligated to stick around either. If these players felt they could get more minutes and play more at the college level, then they have the right to leave too. Why would a coach want to keep players around that don't want to be there in the first place?

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

"We had to make some changes because those people didn’t belong in our Division I program and it was hurting our chemistry and hurting our performance,” Miller said.

that's a pretty harsh comment to make, I'm no lawyer but my experience in business is that if they were employees of a company they'd have a much better basis to sue than Miller has

given that Bramm & Krause are doing well with their new teams, the other two won't be playing until next year, and so many players left
people have to ask: was it the players or the environment?

and that comment really calls into question how important winning is, and how important the individual is, at UMD

 

[joecct]

that's a pretty harsh comment to make, I'm no lawyer but my experience in business is that if they were employees of a company they'd have a much better basis to sue than Miller has

given that Bramm & Krause are doing well with their new teams, the other two won't be playing until next year, and so many players left
people have to ask: was it the players or the environment?

and that comment really calls into question how important winning is, and how important the individual is, at UMD

The ugly truth about scholarships is that they are one year renewable contracts with the school holding all the power. If a player is not performing they can be waived.

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The ugly truth about scholarships is that they are one year renewable contracts with the school holding all the power. If a player is not performing they can be waived.

Luckily, very few programs make a practice of booting people off of the roster, because it fosters neither the image of team nor does it serve as a good model for why varsity sports were created in the first place.

 

[ne7minder]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

She recruited them, she brought them into her D1 program, she should be accountable if she screwed up on all of them (and if she screwed up on her eval of them, she should be fired for that, you can't miss on 7 players and be considered a good recruiter). Where's her commitment to them to help them become better players and improve team chemistry?

BINGO!
She recruited them and, note that she never said they decided UMD was not for them, she was very clear it was her decision.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

"The men's hockey team brings in more revenue than any other sport at Minnesota-Duluth, according to the university, earning $2.37 million this year in ticket sales and sponsorships. The women's team has earned less than $90,000, while its expenses totaled $1.59 million."

I wish they would have included the expenses of the men's team in the article, maybe somebody knows.

If you haven't read this article, you should. It was posted previously but deserves a second look. It illuminates the lack of reality by some.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/07/u-minnesota-duluth-says-departure-womens-hockey-coach-financially-driven

"...and for institutions to begin considering male and female coaches ..., meaning how much revenue their work generates is beside the point..."

yeah, because money grows on trees
that's how UMD got into this trouble in the first place
there is a history over the past 50 years of Duluth not living within its means
nearly everything that has been built has been heavily subsidized by the rest of the state (Amsoil Arena for example)
so it's no surprise the budget shortfall "caught them by surprise"
huh?
once again the first inclination was for them to have the rest of the state bail them out
in a rare instance, Duluth was refused and told to take care of the problem itself
as any plumber can tell you, s**t flows down hill
the people who will suffer for this mistake is not the administration
it is someone farther down hill

 

[OldDave]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

A year (or two) ago, some reporter wrote about the schools with the highest administrative costs in the nation. UM was high on the list. The reporter probably got his numbers from the published annual reports put out by the U. If you look at those (and you can), you will see that they are made up of lots of numbers with accompanying text. If you bother to read the text, you will discover the U has a simplistic approach to classifying income and expenses: those associated with Direct Mission Delivery (instruction of students) and “everything else”. The “everything else” category was called “Administrative”.

Perhaps the reporter did not read the text. Perhaps he read it and did not understand it. Perhaps he read it, understood it, but did not clarify that it was not apples to apples in his report. It doesn’t matter now. The State Legislature got interested in the report and grilled University management in 2013. Eventually, the U was required to cut $15 million from “Administrative costs” in 2014. They actually reported cuts of $18.8 million.

Why am I posting this info in this thread? UMD is part of UM and it participated in the cuts that were made. UMD reported cuts of $1.4 million (7% of the total). What is of interest to this discussion is the system-wide methods used to bring about those cuts. Here’s the quote from the Board of Regents Finance Committee December, 2014, Report:

Savings Due to Staffing Changes: $11.4 Million
Approximately 61 percent of the reallocations were realized through changes in
staffing, including both position eliminations and other reductions leading to
reduced spending on salaries and benefits. Examples include instances in which the
units eliminated administrative positions or reduced the cost of such positions
through attrition, reorganization, termination, consolidation of staff under a single
unit from multiple units, movement towards part-time staff, and hiring replacement
staff at a lower salary than their predecessor.

The key part of this paragraph for this discussion deals with the termination of high priced staff and replacing them with lower salaried employees. This approach swept through the business world 20 years ago with unexpected results. Companies that bought into the concept usually used a combination of outsourcing jobs to India and firing long term employees that were replaced with recent college grads.

Some percent of the fired employees sued their companies for age discrimination and a few of them won. The awards were in the 7 figure range (remember, these were high priced employees receiving up to six figure salaries, typically). Many of the fired employees went to work for competitors or (worse) customers of their old companies. Do you know how hard it is to bid on business against competitors who know your profit margin to the penny, and from customers who know your marginal costs also to the penny? If you got the business, you could maybe count on breaking even.

On top of that, your fresh new employees and many of your older employees realized that dedication and commitment only got them fired, so they often grabbed the next decent job that presented itself. Companies discovered that they now had two new expense categories: recruitment and retention. My wife, for example, was outsourced twice (two different divisions of the same corporation) and then hired back by that same corporation when the outsourcing didn’t work out. She doubled her salary in the process, a result that would not have occurred had they not outsourced her.

Caveats: One - My background is GAAP, and the U appears to be under GASB (Government Accounting Standards Board) rules. The “everything else” reporting might be a requirement of GASB. Two - Miller’s contract was announced as not being renewed in December, about the same time as the Board of Regents Report I cited above was presented, so it may not be part of the process the report describes. Three - I have tried to only provide facts without interjecting any opinions in this post. It seemed to me that this thread had a dearth of facts and a surfeit of opinions. Just my opinion.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

It seemed to me that this thread had a dearth of facts and a surfeit of opinions.

Well thanks for trying
other than your opinion that there is too much opinion here and not enough fact, I’m not really sure what your point is (largely because of your dearth of fact and richness of opinion)

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

"The men's hockey team brings in more revenue than any other sport at Minnesota-Duluth, according to the university, earning $2.37 million this year in ticket sales and sponsorships. The women's team has earned less than $90,000, while its expenses totaled $1.59 million."

I wish they would have included the expenses of the men's team in the article, maybe somebody knows.


https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/07/u-minnesota-duluth-says-departure-womens-hockey-coach-financially-driven

The answer to your question was in the article that you linked.

"With expenses totaling $2.02 million, the men's hockey program outspent the women's program this year by nearly $500,000, according to numbers provided by the university."

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

And I wonder if Schuler and/or Kingsbury are contemplating joining Miller's apparent lawsuit.

I would think the answer is no because Schuler has made it known that she wants to be considered for the Head Coach vacancy (which is consistent with her stated reason for leaving the same position at NU to become an assistant under Miller) and it wouldn't be good strategy to bite the hand that you hope will be eventually feeding you.

Kingsbury, wouldn't have a case because she has no track record at UMD.

But, who knows?

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The answer to your question was in the article that you linked.

"With expenses totaling $2.02 million, the men's hockey program outspent the women's program this year by nearly $500,000, according to numbers provided by the university."

IOW, the men's program showed a $350,000 profit while the women showed a $1,500,000 loss, a difference of 1.85 million between the 2 programs

and Miller thinks she is underpaid and her supporters think it unfair her contract is not renewed

it is ironic that an organization that has focused on hiring women for the last 40 years, some would even say to the point of overlooking more qualified males, is going to find themselves being sued for their sexist (sic) personnel decisions

 

[Skate79]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

"...and hiring replacement staff at a lower salary than their predecessor."

A foregone conclusion.

"...The women's team has earned less than $90,000, while its expenses totaled $1.59 million."

Ouch. Hard to argue with the University's decision not to renew her contract, especially in light of her salary. I would be curious to know the breakdown of expenses beyond Miller's salary (not including health benefits). For instance, does rink maintenance/management come under Buildings and Grounds or is it included in the athletic budget? Security for games? Medical for treatment of injuries? There are a bunch of other categories I can think of but it would give me a popsicle headache to list them.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

"...and hiring replacement staff at a lower salary than their predecessor."

A foregone conclusion.

"...The women's team has earned less than $90,000, while its expenses totaled $1.59 million."

Ouch. Hard to argue with the University's decision not to renew her contract, especially in light of her salary.

Except what is the administration at UMD expecting?...that they will save $100k-150K in coaching salaries per year and the team will remain as succesful over time as it has been for the last 15 years?

While that is possible the deck is certainly stacked against that eventuality because it is unlikely that her replacement will have her connections, European or otherwise, or her knowledge/abilities which resulted in her successful track record or her high profile personality all of which help immensely in attracting elite players as potential recruits and converting them. Not even Schuler.

More likely is that the team will not be nearly as successful and as one might expect the average attendance will take the down elevator from 1000/game to under 300 that 48% of D1 teams now draw. So, if that is the case, then the $100k-150K is no longer the savings that have been realized...it would be substantially less than that.

At the average price of $8/game for paying customers 700 fewer heads /game = $5600 x 18 games = $100,800/year in lost revenue. Even if they drew 500/game that would equate to $72,000/year in lost revenue and these lost revenue figures would be proportionately higher if the team gets a piece of the 'Dog shop sales, concessions, parking etc..

So, assuming that UMD has no intention of turfing the entire women's program, where is the big savings that justifies all this hullabaloo?

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

... the team will remain as succesful over time as it has been for the last 15 years?

The decision to retain a coach or not doesn't always consider the entire tenure. Many a previously successful coach whose team has fallen on hard times is shown to the exit. Much of the glitter in Miller's resume came in her first four years at UMD. Since then, she's had the third-best program in the league most of the time. Lately, it wasn't even that. The decision may have been made that the Bulldogs were in decline even if Miller had been retained, and if they are going to struggle, they'd rather do so with someone else at the helm. At that point, it is similar to the fate of the players who were cut. "You're not meeting expectations; thanks for your service, and good luck elsewhere."