Shannon Miller out at UMD?

[vicb]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

At the average price of $8/game for paying customers 700 fewer heads /game = $5600 x 18 games = $100,800/year in lost revenue. Even if they drew 500/game that would equate to $72,000/year in lost revenue and these lost revenue figures would be proportionately higher if the team gets a piece of the 'Dog shop sales, concessions, parking etc..

"...The women's team has earned less than $90,000, while its expenses totaled $1.59 million."

Cutting 70% on attendance and losing $100,000 when you only earned $90,000 ???? They must be giving away a lot of tickets or the avg ticket price is more like $4.00 if they are getting crowds of 1000 per game.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

IOW, the men's program showed a $350,000 profit while the women showed a $1,500,000 loss, a difference of 1.85 million between the 2 programs

and Miller thinks she is underpaid and her supporters think it unfair her contract is not renewed

Note that UMD (or any NCAA school) can't actually use this argument in court to defend themselves from any sort of lawsuit. In winning all of the lawsuits over the years in which the NCAA denied that athletes are employees they consistently denied that the generation of revenue is a significant factor in how they operate their athletic departments. If sports teams did have that as a goal, the athletes would almost certainly be considered employees with all that that entails.

So while you may know that that's a consideration and I may know that it's a consideration, it won't actually have any relevance in a court proceeding unless the NCAA wants to reverse itself on whether it needs to treat its work force as an actual work force.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The decision may have been made that the Bulldogs were in decline even if Miller had been retained, and if they are going to struggle, they'd rather do so with someone else at the helm.

If so, what would that say about the administration's attitude? One would assume that an AD should understand elite sports or just competition in general and this would show that they did not possess the barest necessity that one needs to posses in any environment that involves competition ...ie: a positive attitude.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

"...The women's team has earned less than $90,000, while its expenses totaled $1.59 million."

Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. Even though I forgot about that number you're confusing a decrease in revenue with the actual revenue that they brought in. My point is still valid if things turned out the way I described...their loss would be larger than otherwise expected since, (even though it is obvious from that $90K that the team isn't getting anywhere near the amounts of revenue that I outlined), because it's all relative. And it is clear that UMD is willing to continue on with a financially losing program, they just don't want the losses to be as large as they have been.

 

[CrazyDave]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

I'm very interested in finding out where I can get $4 or even $8 tickets to the UMD-UM(TC) games in Duluth. They've been charging me $12 per game (adult walk-up rate).

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

I'm very interested in finding out where I can get $4 or even $8 tickets to the UMD-UM(TC) games in Duluth. They've been charging me $12 per game (adult walk-up rate).

You might have to leave you're one man travelling band in the trunk of your car...maybe that's the problem...(or they know you're a Gophers fan).

http://www.umdbulldogs.com/sports/2013/8/20/Womens Hockey Tickets.aspx

 

[joecct]

IOW, the men's program showed a $350,000 profit while the women showed a $1,500,000 loss, a difference of 1.85 million between the 2 programs

Which is consistent with most women's programs. They're loss leaders.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Which is consistent with most women's programs. They're loss leaders.

really? then show us the data, or are you just another poster from afar with no knowledge of UMD?

if this were an Ivy with a billion dollar endowment and alumni that fart 5 dollar bills, or even Ohio State with its lucrative football & hoops program, that would be one thing
this is UMD, a little school in the hinterlands where it is not uncommon to find a black bear in the back yard
for those who have never been there, you can take Interstate 35 south to within a mile of the Mexican border, but if you go north it stops in Duluth, to get to the Canadian border the road continues as a divided highway for 26 miles to Two Harbors, but from there it is 2+ hours on a two lane highway to the Canadian border. You can spot wolves crossing the highway at night. Venture a hundred feet from this ribbon and you are on your own.

I'm very interested in finding out where I can get $4 or even $8 tickets to the UMD-UM(TC) games in Duluth. They've been charging me $12 per game (adult walk-up rate).

The last game I attended it was 9 bucks
one thing you have to keep in mind, UMD allows U students in free, but they must show ID at the ticket counter and get a ticket
so they are included in the attendance, but don't show up as part of the gate

the is different than at Ridder where the student simply shows an ID and is waved thru

BTW, I think there is something to that "maybe they knew you were a Gopher fan" because the price was different the 1st to 2nd night I attended, the only difference being the first night I was wearing Gopher attire ... they charged me a buck more

 

[gojackets]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

really? then show us the data, or are you just another poster from afar with no knowledge of UMD?

if this were an Ivy with a billion dollar endowment and alumni that fart 5 dollar bills, or even Ohio State with its lucrative football & hoops program, that would be one thing
this is UMD, a little school in the hinterlands where it is not uncommon to find a black bear in the back yard
for those who have never been there, you can take Interstate 35 south to within a mile of the Mexican border, but if you go north it stops in Duluth, to get to the Canadian border the road continues as a divided highway for 26 miles to Two Harbors, but from there it is 2+ hours on a two lane highway to the Canadian border. You can spot wolves crossing the highway at night. Venture a hundred feet from this ribbon and you are on your own.

I believe that he's just stating the fact that in general women's sports lose money and men's sports make money/lose less money.

Even if you take a basketball example: Wisconsin Men's Basketball vs Women's Basketball--Last night's men's game against Nebraska had 17,279 in attendance--single game tickets range from $24-$30 per ticket. Student season tickets are $10 per game, so let's just say, conservatively, that the average ticket was $15 per person that is nearly $260,000 in ticket revenue for that game. If you compare that to the women's team whose last home game had attendance of 2822. Students get in free if they have a $25 "Red Card". But single game tickets are $7 for general admission. Let's just say all 2822 paid $7 for their ticket(unlikely) that is still only $19,754. It is probably safe to assume that the Women's Basketball program at Wisconsin is a money losing program, where the men's team either breaks even/makes a little or loses less then the women's team does. At UW-Madison, the $25 Red Card gets students into all women's sports for free and wrestling/men's soccer...and if its like the CatCard at U of Arizona its just your student ID.

Unfortunately women's sports just don't make money. Even the fact that the UMD men's team had a $350,000 profit is amazing.

 

[Skate79]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Except what is the administration at UMD expecting?...that they will save $100k-150K in coaching salaries per year and the team will remain as succesful over time as it has been for the last 15 years?

Let's just go with Miller's salary here because I don't know the salaries of the assistant coaches. She makes $250k reportedly. Let's say UMD readjusts the pay grade to a top level of $90k. That's a savings $160k right there. So your math is a bit conservative. The assistants won't get much more than $50k to $60k if that.

While that is possible the deck is certainly stacked against that eventuality because it is unlikely that her replacement will have her connections, European or otherwise, or her knowledge/abilities which resulted in her successful track record or her high profile personality all of which help immensely in attracting elite players as potential recruits and converting them. Not even Schuler

Maybe but you are already discrediting her replacement without knowing who she/he is. Example: When John Dooley retired as Harvard's women coach in '94, he had built a winning program that albeit was drawing in less than 100 fans a game. Katey Stone was hired on and within five years, took Harvard to a national championship. Katey had no resume to speak of other than graduating from UNH. Harvard took a flyer and the rest is history. I get that I'm comparing apples to oranges in terms of the growth of women's hockey but the point remains; you don't know who will take the helm and what she/he will produce as results.

More likely is that the team will not be nearly as successful and as one might expect the average attendance will take the down elevator from 1000/game to under 300 that 48% of D1 teams now draw. So, if that is the case, then the $100k-150K is no longer the savings that have been realized...it would be substantially less than that.

I don't live in Minnesota but I would find it hard to believe that UMD women's hockey will all of sudden plummet in attendance to an average of 300 fans a game because Miller is gone. When the Gophers come to play, do you seriously expect 300 fans at the game? Unless the team starts out by losing 10 of their first 12 games, I don't see how the support will diminish to those levels. When Maura Crowell took over for Katey Stone last year, attendance didn't plummet. It isn't the coach that draws fans - it's the level of play and competition. Play at a high level and they will come.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

You might have to leave you're one man travelling band in the trunk of your car...maybe that's the problem...(or they know you're a Gophers fan).

http://www.umdbulldogs.com/sports/2013/8/20/Womens Hockey Tickets.aspx

The thing I find amazing about those ticket prices is that at the high school I teach at in Arizona, the ticket prices are $6 for adults and 4$ for under 18. You aren't paying that much more for elite college women's hockey then you are paying for very mediocre girls basketball

Even over the bridge at D3 UW-S tickets are $8 for adults and $5 for under 18...so you aren't paying much for for D1 then D3.

 

[KTDC]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The thing I find amazing about those ticket prices is that at the high school I teach at in Arizona, the ticket prices are $6 for adults and 4$ for under 18. You aren't paying that much more for elite college women's hockey then you are paying for very mediocre girls basketball

Yes, I bought season tickets for U of MN last year for the first time and I couldn't believe how cheap they were! I understand it a little better now because I see better how hard it is to get people out to women's hockey games. Our attendance starting going down after we lost one game I still think it's a great deal!

 

[gojackets]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

That is funny.


Next is this 1000 attendance number. On a good night there might be half that. That number is a tickets sold, given away, arms twisted to take tickets number. Much like every time the Timberwolves announce a sellout and the photos make it look like "dress like an arena seat night".

When I worked at the Radisson in Duluth there would always be a stack of tickets to the women's games on Friday/Saturdays by the time clock.

 

[hockeynut]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Next home game I would like to challenge one of the aggrieved to take a panoramic picture of the crowd during the second period and post said picture here. We will have a contest counting those in attendance.

Are you allowed to quote yourself? Would that be like Shannon speaking of herself in the 3rd person, LOL.

I issued the above challenge without remembering one important point.

Most of the aggrieved have never been to a UMD Women's game, could not tell you the name of one player, and don't live within 100 miles of the school.

 

[D2D]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

...Shannon will get the big settlement she is looking for...

Curious as to why you believe she will get a big settlement. They are non-renewing her contract and, unless in doing so they violated some provision in that contract, what legal argument would she make in court? And, if she would like to continue her coaching career in the D1 ranks, would taking the university to court be a wise move?

 

[Cali]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

That is funny.

A loss leader is a good thing, a useful retail tool. Might want to look that one up.

I believe you are actually looking for the term acceptable loss.

I would say that it is debatable that a loss leader is a "good thing". It is a necessity that retailers only use to remain competitive and to attract customers. If you ask anyone in retail if they are happy putting price stickers on products that result in a 10 or 20% loss, the answer is no. I am in retail and it pains me to no end. Extending the analogy a bit, most loss leaders are for core items such as milk and bread etc.. Typically those items are located in the back of a store, making the consumer have to pass by all of the profitable items to get to them. As such, schools will quite often bundle ticket packages with men's programs, to try and attract customers to those more profitable sports. As well, women's sports, hockey included are necessities for the schools to offer to remain Title IX compliant. Given that, I have no issue with the statement that most women's programs are loss leaders.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Let's just go with Miller's salary here because I don't know the salaries of the assistant coaches. She makes $250k reportedly. Let's say UMD readjusts the pay grade to a top level of $90k. That's a savings $160k right there. So your math is a bit conservative. The assistants won't get much more than $50k to $60k if that.

Miller's salary is $215K, not $250K. I assumed that they won't be saving a ton on the assistants, hence, my guesstimates.

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/stor...e-champion-womens-hockey-coach-shannon-miller

 

[pakidnyc]

When Maura Crowell took over for Katey Stone last year, attendance didn't plummet. It isn't the coach that draws fans - it's the level of play and competition. Play at a high level and they will come.

Their attendance actually increased from 12-13 (528 average) to 13-14 (694 average) back down to 626 this year. So, I'm not sure attendance says anything about the coach, or quality of the team. Harvard has arguably their best and most successful team in years on the ice now, yet can't get more fans? Heck, RIT has a higher fan average than Harvard!

 

[joecct]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

A few years back the NCAA published a spreadsheet of the income and expenses of all its championships. 5 D-I men's championships made money in the previous season (hoops, lax, wrestling, baseball and hockey). All the rest of the men's championships and all the women's had more expenses than revenue. The biggest loss leader was women's basketball.

Too bad that sheet is no longer easily found. I'd be curious with the new TV deals if the numbers have changed.

 

[D2D]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Too bad that sheet is no longer easily found. I'd be curious with the new TV deals if the numbers have changed.

The biggest change today would of course be the football championship which didn't exist before this year. And that's only going to get bigger.

I'm very surprised that women's BB was the biggest loss leader. You can find their games all over TV most every day throughout the season, and presumably some people are interested enough to watch them.