Selection Show

[pokechecker]

Re: Selection Show

if .....

Getting a bit off topic, but of course the stats suggest some corrections based on league-average schedules. Roughly, WCHODR suggests you should deflate the offensive figures of the Hockey East players by 10% and you inflate the offensive stats of the WCHA players by 10%. And you should deflate the goals allowed by WCHA goalies by 10% as well. Coyne still comes ahead as the top scorer even if you do the calculation I suggest -- though we're still talking about cross-league projections based on a very small sample of out of conference games and little best-vs-the-best interconference play and a very weak Hockey East. Such is the dilemma of a national collegiate award.

I would vote for Desbiens too though, at first glance.

OMG, now we're applying some sort of formula to determine the outcome of individual awards too?

 

[PuckRush]

Re: Selection Show

Looking at the PK final 3 differently.

Where would each team be situated if they didn't have that specific player??

If BC did not have Carpenter, would they still be a top 3 team, I believe very likely.

If UW didn't have ARD would they still be top 3, also very likely. (you mention she shut out UM, but she also gave up two 4 goal games to them)

If NU didn't have Coyne would they still be top 8, very unlikely. Top 16 maybe?

If BC wanted to prop up Carpenter's numbers they easily could have. Often splitting up Carpenter and Skarupa in attempts to make a more complete attack, which they accomplished.

UW would have won most of the same games if they went with a 6 player out strategy and reduced their shots to almost zero.

With NU, Coyne scored a ton of goals that were her's alone. She carried that team and made it happen. Really it was important for the D to get the puck up and out of the zone and see what Coyne would do with it.

Exchange Coyne and Carpenter and the results would probably be similar. Coyne would have ripped it up with BC, Carpenter would have done fine with NU, but I'm not sure she could carry a team like Coyne did.

Now switch ARD to most other teams who are not UM, UW, Q or BC and I think the discussion would be about the goalies from one of these teams (maybe Rossman)

PK has a lot of subjective criteria (read the criteria to remind yourselves). In your analysis, Coyne has the most value because of her significant impact on NE's ranking. If just based on "value" to a team, Coyne wins hands-down.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: Selection Show

Fortunately, our complaint with the bracket involves which team was sent where. What would have happened had BU won? Would Princeton have still ranked above Northeastern in the committee's thinking, and so the Tigers would be in while the Huskies were out? Perhaps that's what led to this whole swap in the first place. If the Terriers get the Hockey East auto-bid, then they would be sent to BC to play the Eagles. Is it still Princeton going to Minnesota in that scenario, or is Northeastern magically back in over the Tigers? Could the BU involvement have led to the committee deciding in advance of the finals that they would send a Hockey East team to BC no matter what? Maybe there was some opinion that the ECAC was deeper than Hockey East, so it should be the league with three teams. I know it is supposed to just be a comparison of two teams, but something strange had to be going on. This year's controversy isn't nearly as bad as it could be, but it sets a lousy precedent of the committee going out of its way to create more intraconference pairings rather than trying to reduce them whenever possible.

We all know that it would be a more interesting bracket if Princeton goes to BC and NE goes to Minn. But in the end, shouldn't the final four be BC, Wisc, Minn and QU? Maybe we're looking at this wrong... maybe the quarterfinal is a waste of time. When was the last time a team ranked 1-4 going into the tournament didn't win the championship?

 

[dave1381]

Re: Selection Show

if .....

OMG, now we're applying some sort of formula to determine the outcome of individual awards too?

It gives you some rough idea. That is all.

But people were already whining "all the WCHA players would have twice as many points in Hockey East" in the Patty Kaz thread, so why not try to estimate an answer? And the stats say the WCHA players would have about 20% more points, not twice as many. It just gives you some idea whether Coyne and Carpenter's stats gap with the WCHA's best is totally the result of their skill as compared to the quality of competition. And then the stats suggest Coyne is still the best, but most of the gap is due to the quality of competition.

Then, meanwhile, you have Desbiens who is having the best season ever in net and it's not even close, so it is helpful to note that Coyne is really only slightly better than the next-best scorers in both Hockey East and the WCHA, when deciding whether to vote for her or the best goaltending season in women's college history.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Selection Show

We all know that it would be a more interesting bracket if Princeton goes to BC and NE goes to Minn. But in the end, shouldn't the final four be BC, Wisc, Minn and QU? Maybe we're looking at this wrong... maybe the quarterfinal is a waste of time. When was the last time a team ranked 1-4 going into the tournament didn't win the championship?

Never, but Cornell who was unofficially fifth seed in 2010 and lost in 3 OT in the final was easily the closest.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: Selection Show

Here's an idea:

Best of 3 conference quarterfinal.
Best of 3 conference semi-final.
Best of 3 conference final.
Each conference sends their best team to the Frozen Four.

I think same number of weekends and probably less overall cost.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: Selection Show

Fortunately, our complaint with the bracket involves which team was sent where. What would have happened had BU won? Would Princeton have still ranked above Northeastern in the committee's thinking, and so the Tigers would be in while the Huskies were out? Perhaps that's what led to this whole swap in the first place. If the Terriers get the Hockey East auto-bid, then they would be sent to BC to play the Eagles. Is it still Princeton going to Minnesota in that scenario, or is Northeastern magically back in over the Tigers? Could the BU involvement have led to the committee deciding in advance of the finals that they would send a Hockey East team to BC no matter what? Maybe there was some opinion that the ECAC was deeper than Hockey East, so it should be the league with three teams. I know it is supposed to just be a comparison of two teams, but something strange had to be going on. This year's controversy isn't nearly as bad as it could be, but it sets a lousy precedent of the committee going out of its way to create more intraconference pairings rather than trying to reduce them whenever possible.

Yeah basically all of this.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Selection Show

in looking at the NE schedule, the outrage should not be over the NCAA tournament selection process, an even more flawed process is selecting the Patty K winner.
If I am understanding correctly, the winner was already decided prior to last weekends games.
Just when the tough get going, just when the winners separate from the losers, the PK commitee stops looking at their body of work.
In now looking at the NE schedule, Coyne has amassed her goals against 2nd & 3rd rate teams. Desbiens has not only beaten several top ten teams multiple times, she has beaten #3 MN and shut them out. I don't see any games by the other two that demonstrates rising above and deomonstrating "the best of the best"
I don't see how anybody could give the award to anybody else given the schedule and results of the 3 teams of the final 3.

Excellent point. I too was shocked to find out the award has already been decided, just not given out. They definitely should have waited and could have waited til after the first round of the playoffs, why not amass more pertinent info? There's no downside to waiting.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Selection Show

Here's an idea:

Best of 3 conference quarterfinal.
Best of 3 conference semi-final.
Best of 3 conference final.
Each conference sends their best team to the Frozen Four.

I think same number of weekends and probably less overall cost.

Not a bad idea at all.

It does raise some issues. For one thing, teams that play in multi-purpose buildings are going to have trouble holding ice-time for that many "if necessary" games.

It's also not an absolute must for each of the four conferences to use exactly the same method for selecting champions. You can afford to tolerate a little variation from one conference to the next. As long as each conference produces one undisputed champion, you've got a clean list of four teams for your NCAA field.

Issues aside, your plan is one of several that would be worthy of consideration. It seems that the NCAA just can't resist the lemming-like urge to schedule intra-conference first round match-ups. As such, expanding the conference tournaments to replace the Round of 8 altogether might well be a good answer.

 

[clarksoncluck]

Re: Selection Show

Not a bad idea at all.

It does raise some issues. For one thing, teams that play in multi-purpose buildings are going to have trouble holding ice-time for that many "if necessary" games.

It's also not an absolute must for each of the four conferences to use exactly the same method for selecting champions. You can afford to tolerate a little variation from one conference to the next. As long as each conference produces one undisputed champion, you've got a clean list of four teams for your NCAA field.

Issues aside, your plan is one of several that would be worthy of consideration. It seems that the NCAA just can't resist the lemming-like urge to schedule intra-conference first round match-ups. As such, expanding the conference tournaments to replace the Round of 8 altogether might well be a good answer.

Puckrush is crazy!

The girls have to go to school. Several of the top players miss lots of games due to national team commitments. There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!!!

Wake up, it's not for you! They will move on after and get on with their lives, will you? Ivy's have a limit on # of games played. Donate 10k each and the pro thing will be taken care of for a year.

None of you have paid the $'s to get their kid through this, so please quit talking about more games that do nothing for them in the long run. If your prepared to pay 10k for next 25 years then please call the CWHL or NWHL and donate. If not, please be quiet and let them move on.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Selection Show

Puckrush is crazy!

Nope. But you're certainly overreacting. Or at least misunderstanding the context.

The girls have to go to school. Several of the top players miss lots of games due to national team commitments. There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!!!

In the WCHA, we currently use the three game series one weekend a year. Everyone survives.

The real suggestion here is that the conference playoffs should replace the NCAA Round of 8. No weekends are added to the schedule. Looking at the next-to-last weekend under Puck Rush's formulation, you'd still have eight teams in action, same as the status quo. The specific teams would be slightly different. Examples from this year: Syracuse & BU would have gone a weekend longer. Northeastern and Princeton would have finished one weekend earlier. (or more)

Yes, having a 3 game series would increase the physical toll on that particular weekend. But honestly, if you had read my reply with reasonable care, you would have noticed I gave you the loophole you need to be perfectly happy. If the ECAC wants their post season tournament be strictly single elimination, I'd be 100% fine with it. Maybe Puck Rush disagrees with me on this particular point. If so, the two of you need to connect.

For the WCHA, I'd likely use the same loophole and keep our status quo. Having a single elimination Final Face-Off with the last 4 teams strikes me as good preparation for the Frozen Four. Using my formulation, Minnesota and Wisconsin would actually have had their seasons shortened by one weekend, and would have played (at least) one less game each. Seasons for our other six teams would have been unchanged.

Also note that by dropping the NCAA Round of 8, the amount of travel would actually be reduced for most teams reaching the next-to-last weekend.

Wake up, it's not for you! They will move on after and get on with their lives, will you? Ivy's have a limit on # of games played. Donate 10k each and the pro thing will be taken care of for a year.

None of you have paid the $'s to get their kid through this, so please quit talking about more games that do nothing for them in the long run. If your prepared to pay 10k for next 25 years then please call the CWHL or NWHL and donate. If not, please be quiet and let them move on.

This rant is irrelevant and uncalled for. Puck Rush's formulation would add a few extra games for teams going deep in the playoffs, but no extra weekends. My variation would actually cut a little from the overall total.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Selection Show

Here's an idea:

Best of 3 conference quarterfinal.
Best of 3 conference semi-final.
Best of 3 conference final.
Each conference sends their best team to the Frozen Four.

I think same number of weekends and probably less overall cost.

I like it. The only thing I would change is make the frozen 4 a round robin with the #1 and #2 teams playing in the last game. You would force teams to use all 4 lines to conserve energy instead of just riding the top 2 and spotting the 3rd for just 2 games. Would that not be a great weekend of hockey? Being able to see 6 games vs 2 games makes the fan travel worth while too.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: Selection Show

You guys are way overthinking this.

They use single elimination because single elimination is awesome and exciting. Don't change a thing.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: Selection Show

I will amend my motion based on feedback:

Conferences have their playoffs just like they do now. Each conference sends their champion to the Frozen Four. So at UNH this year we would have had BC vs. Mercyhurst and Wisconsin vs Quinnipiac. Winners go to championship game.

It all ends one week earlier. The NCAA saves on travel costs. No repeats of the conference championships (like now with QU vs Clarkson and BC vs NE this weekend - which is patently unfair if either of the latter two schools win). And the best part... I'm now not "crazy".

Does someone want to second the motion?

 

[KTDC]

Re: Selection Show

I will amend my motion based on feedback:

Conferences have their playoffs just like they do now. Each conference sends their champion to the Frozen Four. So at UNH this year we would have had BC vs. Mercyhurst and Wisconsin vs Quinnipiac. Winners go to championship game.

It all ends one week earlier. The NCAA saves on travel costs. No repeats of the conference championships (like now with QU vs Clarkson and BC vs NE this weekend - which is patently unfair if either of the latter two schools win). And the best part... I'm now not "crazy".

Does someone want to second the motion?

All the westerners will think this is a great idea

 

[DC78-82]

Re: Selection Show

I will amend my motion based on feedback:

Conferences have their playoffs just like they do now. Each conference sends their champion to the Frozen Four. So at UNH this year we would have had BC vs. Mercyhurst and Wisconsin vs Quinnipiac. Winners go to championship game.

It all ends one week earlier. The NCAA saves on travel costs. No repeats of the conference championships (like now with QU vs Clarkson and BC vs NE this weekend - which is patently unfair if either of the latter two schools win). And the best part... I'm now not "crazy".

Does someone want to second the motion?

From a spectator's POV, I wouldn't mind seeing a 3 game conference title series, especially as we get closer to any team on any given day. t sure would go a long way to determining who the best conference representative is, as opposed to who it was for that game, but I don't think we'll see that anytime soon.

The entire conversation, complete with insults, however benign, makes me think we need the season to last all year, because with the 2 biggest D1 Women's hockey weekends in front of us, the off season tone is already creeping in.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Selection Show

For the marque sports in the NC$$, having conference tournaments is another way to generate money. Having two season ending tournaments for every team puts money in the bank.

The problem with women’s hockey, and all of the secondary/minor sports is that it is a drain on the schools, it costs money. The more games they play, the more money they lose. Using a playoff model from hoops or even men's hockey just isn't the same, because it isn't.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: Selection Show

Holy hell, Wednesday women is a must-read this week:

http://www.uscho.com/2016/03/09/wednesday-women-puzzling-pairings/

That is some scathing stuff right there

 

[clarksoncluck]

Re: Selection Show

Nope. But you're certainly overreacting. Or at least misunderstanding the context.

In the WCHA, we currently use the three game series one weekend a year. Everyone survives.

The real suggestion here is that the conference playoffs should replace the NCAA Round of 8. No weekends are added to the schedule. Looking at the next-to-last weekend under Puck Rush's formulation, you'd still have eight teams in action, same as the status quo. The specific teams would be slightly different. Examples from this year: Syracuse & BU would have gone a weekend longer. Northeastern and Princeton would have finished one weekend earlier. (or more)

Yes, having a 3 game series would increase the physical toll on that particular weekend. But honestly, if you had read my reply with reasonable care, you would have noticed I gave you the loophole you need to be perfectly happy. If the ECAC wants their post season tournament be strictly single elimination, I'd be 100% fine with it. Maybe Puck Rush disagrees with me on this particular point. If so, the two of you need to connect.

For the WCHA, I'd likely use the same loophole and keep our status quo. Having a single elimination Final Face-Off with the last 4 teams strikes me as good preparation for the Frozen Four. Using my formulation, Minnesota and Wisconsin would actually have had their seasons shortened by one weekend, and would have played (at least) one less game each. Seasons for our other six teams would have been unchanged.

Also note that by dropping the NCAA Round of 8, the amount of travel would actually be reduced for most teams reaching the next-to-last weekend.

This rant is irrelevant and uncalled for. Puck Rush's formulation would add a few extra games for teams going deep in the playoffs, but no extra weekends. My variation would actually cut a little from the overall total.

I guess it was a bit of a rant. Butttttttt, every year the girls it the road every 2nd weekish and it may even be on a Wed for a Friday game, miss classes and have to set up alternative solutions to deadlines or classes missed. Some of the girls participate with national teams and miss even more. A friend of mine had a daughter play with one of the Ivy's and was concerned over the amount of time she missed. Over the course of 4 years he believed that she had missed the equivalent of close to a semester. If she had been been with a national program that would have escalated her time away. What really is the purpose of attending any of these schools. He was paying the whole shot for the Ivy school (63 K USD/year).

As the columnists wrote today, hockey is low on the NCAA's radar. If you play in the CWHL you get zip! If you play in the NWHL you get on average 15 K.

Hardly enough to call a wise career decision moving forward.

A different friend (who does have a son playing in the Shell) mentioned to me once that there are 40 paying leagues in the world for guys.

What is the most important focus for these young women? Hockey? It is a means to an ends (career) not an ends (hockey). Sad reality but true.

Sorry for ranting before and maybe still, but these girls (players) can't bank on the the boys with money to take care of them after their NCAA careers are over.

It's just over.

 

[clarksoncluck]

Re: Selection Show

There are a few exceptions - Carpenter, Coyne, Skarupa, Kessel, but even those are very time limited. Get your school girls. Don't bank on the boys to help you!