RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Aside from the fact that NBC is looking for a national audience-and let's face it-Harvard, Yale, Cornell etc all have more national recognition that RPI, Union etc. It is mostly about ratings. There are still lots of people in this country who think RPI is a military school somewhere.

Of course one other thing is that you can talk about recent alumni with certain teams. With RPI, probably a couple mentions of Adam Oates and Joé Juneau (although I never saw either game on TV), not to mention some national championship banners bring a little bit of eye candy. They showed UVM a couple times despite finishing in the basement of HEA, take a look at some of their alumni from the 90's (Martin St. Louis for example). Harvard/Yale is a classic rivalry, so why not show it? Of course with RPI and Yale, a recent tournament appearance didn't hurt matters.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Relatively simple answer-things are not the same now as they have been for the last 25+ years. Just look at how the ECAC stacks up against the other conferences. That was not always the case. When HE first split off the ECAC was a highly rated conference that could usually count on 2 or even 3 teams every year in the NCAA tournament. Now they are very fortunate to get the 1 single bid for the ECAC tournament champion(and even that bid is one of the lower seeds). Second, in the early years of the ECAC the Ivies were not the dominating teams in the league. It was a good mix with a strong set of North Country teams and RPI and Colgate vying for the top spots along with a couple of Ivies. Now the league is Ivy dominated. They can of course get an auto bid if one of the teams wins out but not much chance of a second Ivy getting a bid. With their own conference, playing each other more often and a select OOC conference-i can see them getting at least 2 bids most of the time. But the post that redhead made gives an even better indication of how they might be thinking at this time-a separation to make media deals involving the 'Ivy Brand' seems not only possible, but likely. Just because they honored the ECAC by hanging in there for 25 years means little in this rapidly changing environment. Ask yourself this-Why would it make sense for teams in the other big leagues to leave and form their own conference? The times, they are a-changing.

I think that 2004 was the only time that the ECAC had only one team in the tourney since it went to 16 teams. There have been several years, like this year, when the ECAC has been in danger of only one representative, but in all other cases, there have been at least two. This year, I think that we are just as likely to get three as one, but most likely there will be two. The big problem is that in most recent years, RPI has not been even remotely close to a bid.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Aside from the fact that NBC is looking for a national audience-and let's face it-Harvard, Yale, Cornell etc all have more national recognition that RPI, Union etc. It is mostly about ratings. There are still lots of people in this country who think RPI is a military school somewhere.

Harvard, Yale, Cornell, etc. certainly have more national recognition than RPI, Union, etc., but not much in high level major intercollegiate sports these days. I don't think that any of the 12 have any national recognition as athletic powers, and since hardly anyone cares about hockey, that is another strike. Then again, the AHA will be televised, and all they have is are the military schools and UConn (any maybe Holy Cross). Perhaps some casual sports fans would watch a game with UConn thinking that they must be a national power, but they would be wrong. I can't believe an RIT-Bentley game would attract more viewers than Cornell-Union.

 

[Jasma]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Relatively simple answer-things are not the same now as they have been for the last 25+ years. Just look at how the ECAC stacks up against the other conferences. That was not always the case. When HE first split off the ECAC was a highly rated conference that could usually count on 2 or even 3 teams every year in the NCAA tournament. Now they are very fortunate to get the 1 single bid for the ECAC tournament champion(and even that bid is one of the lower seeds). Second, in the early years of the ECAC the Ivies were not the dominating teams in the league. It was a good mix with a strong set of North Country teams and RPI and Colgate vying for the top spots along with a couple of Ivies. Now the league is Ivy dominated. They can of course get an auto bid if one of the teams wins out but not much chance of a second Ivy getting a bid. With their own conference, playing each other more often and a select OOC conference-i can see them getting at least 2 bids most of the time. But the post that redhead made gives an even better indication of how they might be thinking at this time-a separation to make media deals involving the 'Ivy Brand' seems not only possible, but likely. Just because they honored the ECAC by hanging in there for 25 years means little in this rapidly changing environment. Ask yourself this-Why would it make sense for teams in the other big leagues to leave and form their own conference? The times, they are a-changing.

All very compelling arguments, and I tend to agree that it is only a matter of time, 2-3 years at the most, before the Ivies bolt fromthe ECAC. One posible issue is non-league games. With only six teams, they would either have to play every other team 4 times (20 league games) or schedule a ton of non-leaguers and that could be tough. Another possiblity is that the 6 Ivies could pull one or two ECAC teams with them (Colgate) and maybe add Holy Cross, but that is much less likely.

The Big 10 and the new conference in the west will also be smaller, but they will likely add teams. I would also expect that they will continue some of the traditional matchups in tournaments and non-league arrangements.

The Ivies are not likely to look to schools like Bently, Canisius, etc to fill our their 29-game schedules. This will certainly be interesting to watch. If the Ivies were to pull out, the remaining teams would have to go get RIT, Canisius, Niagara and perhaps others to form a league that would look more like Atlantic Hockey than HE or the ECAC.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

All very compelling arguments, and I tend to agree that it is only a matter of time, 2-3 years at the most, before the Ivies bolt fromthe ECAC. One posible issue is non-league games. With only six teams, they would either have to play every other team 4 times (20 league games) or schedule a ton of non-leaguers and that could be tough. Another possiblity is that the 6 Ivies could pull one or two ECAC teams with them (Colgate) and maybe add Holy Cross, but that is much less likely.

The Big 10 and the new conference in the west will also be smaller, but they will likely add teams. I would also expect that they will continue some of the traditional matchups in tournaments and non-league arrangements.

The Ivies are not likely to look to schools like Bently, Canisius, etc to fill our their 29-game schedules. This will certainly be interesting to watch. If the Ivies were to pull out, the remaining teams would have to go get RIT, Canisius, Niagara and perhaps others to form a league that would look more like Atlantic Hockey than HE or the ECAC.

I would be very surprised if the Ivies would not go with a 20-game league schedule if theys stepped out on their own. As to adding Colgate and Holy Cross, I suppose that is possible since they play Patriot League schools in other sports, but I tend to doubt that they would view it much differently than the current setup.

Edit: I really should stop trying to figure what the Ivy admins are thinking -- I don't even know what Shirley is thinking.

 

[AspyDad]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

I think that 2004 was the only time that the ECAC had only one team in the tourney since it went to 16 teams. There have been several years, like this year, when the ECAC has been in danger of only one representative, but in all other cases, there have been at least two. This year, I think that we are just as likely to get three as one, but most likely there will be two. The big problem is that in most recent years, RPI has not been even remotely close to a bid.

Whatever the numbers are I agree with the good Doc that we're seeing this league disintegrate right in front of our eyes. Apparently Fat Mike is upset about the tourney not being televised and to me his no confidence vote on this issue is a big deal. My macro point is we need to figure out what we're going to do because I don't want to have to scramble like the teams in the CCHA had to do when Miami, UM and Notre dame made their moves.

 

[redhead18]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

All very compelling arguments, and I tend to agree that it is only a matter of time, 2-3 years at the most, before the Ivies bolt fromthe ECAC. One posible issue is non-league games. With only six teams, they would either have to play every other team 4 times (20 league games) or schedule a ton of non-leaguers and that could be tough. Another possiblity is that the 6 Ivies could pull one or two ECAC teams with them (Colgate) and maybe add Holy Cross, but that is much less likely.

I can see a 20 game league schedule with 9 non conference games. HEA will have a bunch of extra games to fill, so I dont think that will be a problem. They could also get creative and schedule a series against a school they are also playing in football or basketball that same weekend. Say Cornell is hosting Dartmouth in football, schedule the two game home series against Dartmouth that same weekend to try and get more visiting fans to travel, etc... For a conference tournament, just have the highest seed host the remaining 5 teams and have a setup similar to the WCHA with two play-in games on Thurday and semis and finals on Fri/Sat. Or Webster Bank Arena in Bridgeport could be a nice location as well.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Whatever the numbers are I agree with the good Doc that we're seeing this league disintegrate right in front of our eyes. Apparently Fat Mike is upset about the tourney not being televised and to me his no confidence vote on this issue is a big deal. My macro point is we need to figure out what we're going to do because I don't want to have to scramble like the teams in the CCHA had to do when Miami, UM and Notre dame made their moves.

I do agree that we ahve to be proactive. The problem is that I don't think there is much we can do now. If we could sell ourselves to HE, that would be great (note the little blurb under my handle), but they will probably wait for UConn to descide waht they will do, and if UConn isn't going to upgrade their program, they will wait for another name school to start one. I dont think that we would consider joining the new WCHA due to travel, and the AHA would be worse than staying where we are.

 

[engineerhockeyfan]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

This is always my worst weekend of the the year. The week after we are eliminated from play.
For months I look forward to Friday night and an Engineer hockey game, and now nothing.
As for new leagues, I just don't get it. There are going to be changes all accross the college hockey world, and the schools in the ECAC are not going to have much to say about it.
If we can't keep the league together, we will be begging for someone else to take us. Not good.
RPI has good hockey history, but recent years have left us behind. If we are going to be taken seriously by HE or another quality league, we are going to have to improve quickly.
I think we can do that, but I also thought that the improvement started last year and would continue. Oh well.
When does the big 10 start play? I know a should know that, but I have forgotten, and it is easier to ask than to look it up.
When that starts, then the scramble will really be on for a number of schools to find a quality place to play.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

This is always my worst weekend of the the year. The week after we are eliminated from play.
For months I look forward to Friday night and an Engineer hockey game, and now nothing.
As for new leagues, I just don't get it. There are going to be changes all accross the college hockey world, and the schools in the ECAC are not going to have much to say about it.
If we can't keep the league together, we will be begging for someone else to take us. Not good.
RPI has good hockey history, but recent years have left us behind. If we are going to be taken seriously by HE or another quality league, we are going to have to improve quickly.
I think we can do that, but I also thought that the improvement started last year and would continue. Oh well.
When does the big 10 start play? I know a should know that, but I have forgotten, and it is easier to ask than to look it up.
When that starts, then the scramble will really be on for a number of schools to find a quality place to play.

The Big Ten begins play in the 2013-14 season, as does the NCHC. This next year is the last year of the old setup.

 

[DrDemento]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

I can see a 20 game league schedule with 9 non conference games. HEA will have a bunch of extra games to fill, so I dont think that will be a problem. They could also get creative and schedule a series against a school they are also playing in football or basketball that same weekend. Say Cornell is hosting Dartmouth in football, schedule the two game home series against Dartmouth that same weekend to try and get more visiting fans to travel, etc... For a conference tournament, just have the highest seed host the remaining 5 teams and have a setup similar to the WCHA with two play-in games on Thurday and semis and finals on Fri/Sat. Or Webster Bank Arena in Bridgeport could be a nice location as well.

I see exactly that kind of schedule-4 games against each IVY rival and 9 OOC games. Probably doesn't matter much to these 6 schools but it certainly saves money to have a weekend of 2 games at each school and then reciprocate later in the season. As for OOC schools I am sure they can have theri pick from HE or what remains of the ECAC. This is going to happen in some way and sooner rather than later. I don't know hwo we can prepare for it, or even if we can prepare for it. But I hope the powers that be are investigating courses of action.

 

[engineerhockeyfan]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Thanks FD, that gives us a year to show the world that we have an up and coming program that would be an asset to any league.

 

[DrDemento]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

I think that 2004 was the only time that the ECAC had only one team in the tourney since it went to 16 teams. There have been several years, like this year, when the ECAC has been in danger of only one representative, but in all other cases, there have been at least two. This year, I think that we are just as likely to get three as one, but most likely there will be two. The big problem is that in most recent years, RPI has not been even remotely close to a bid.

Ralph you are usually much more mathematical about things-right now the 6 Ivies have to share 1 or 2 ECAC bid to the NCAA with 6 other possible schools(and have for some time). If they bolt, they have to share 1 or 2 NCAA bids (or perhaps even 3) with no one! I know I am not one to spew any math but it sure seems to me that getting 1-2 pieces of pizza out of a pie sure satisfies your hunger better than perhaps sharing those 1 or 2 pieces with 6 other hungry eaters.

 

[DrDemento]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Thanks FD, that gives us a year to show the world that we have an up and coming program that would be an asset to any league.

That was my thought-I suspect we have a year to show what we can offer another league. Thank goodness we might just have the nucleus to do it too. I am of the opinion that this was an excellent freshman class and they will be an even better sophomore class.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

I see exactly that kind of schedule-4 games against each IVY rival and 9 OOC games. Probably doesn't matter much to these 6 schools but it certainly saves money to have a weekend of 2 games at each school and then reciprocate later in the season. As for OOC schools I am sure they can have theri pick from HE or what remains of the ECAC. This is going to happen in some way and sooner rather than later. I don't know hwo we can prepare for it, or even if we can prepare for it. But I hope the powers that be are investigating courses of action.

Some of them will have their pick. I don't think that Princeton and Brown (and perhaps Dartmouth) will get all of there top choices, especially the top teams in the HEA. I do agree that if it happens, the league schedule will be as you stated.

Besides for joining the HEA, which is not entirely RPI's decision, is there another choice RPI could make that appears at all possible? Joining the WCHA might be nice, but I just don't see it happening.

 

[redhead18]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Now the league is Ivy dominated.

It certainly seems that way. I dont think its any secret the Ivy schools are also getting the majority of the higher rated recruits within the league either. Which would definately be one of the reasons why the league has been more Ivy dominated in the past ten years or so. I believe it was back in October, I added up all the ECAC alums currently playing in the NHL and from what I recall there was almost twice as many Ivy alums then non-ivy league alums in the big show.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Ralph you are usually much more mathematical about things-right now the 6 Ivies have to share 1 or 2 ECAC bid to the NCAA with 6 other possible schools(and have for some time). If they bolt, they have to share 1 or 2 NCAA bids (or perhaps even 3) with no one! I know I am not one to spew any math but it sure seems to me that getting 1-2 pieces of pizza out of a pie sure satisfies your hunger better than perhaps sharing those 1 or 2 pieces with 6 other hungry eaters.

Yes, but that's assuming that the obtaining of those pieces of the pie is equal for all twelve teams. I don't know whether to call it a regression to the mean, but at this point it seems the chances to get a piece of the pie is weighing in favour of the ivy league teams. I did the study quick study on their successes since the adaptation of the Union rule (and I'm not going to repeat myself). Also, putting on my AspyDad mask on at this time, it seems that the league is "favouring" the ivy league teams (whether or not that's true go ahead and speculate) which could lead to another reason why they're getting the pie but not doing much with it.

 

[burgie12]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

The Big Ten begins play in the 2013-14 season, as does the NCHC. This next year is the last year of the old setup.

Thanks FD, that gives us a year to show the world that we have an up and coming program that would be an asset to any league.

Yes and no. Leagues usually release their conference schedule (at least to their member schools) more than a year in advance. Bertagna went on record just before Notre Dame declared that they would join Hockey East that he normally would've already completed and sent out the 2013-14 schedule, but it was being delayed by Notre Dame's decision. That was in October.

Now, it's certainly possible that a new schedule can be worked out in the middle of this upcoming season. But, it is very beneficial to announce the league schedule well ahead of time so that schools know what weekends they have available for OOC games. HEA has the stipulation that league games can be moved if both teams agree to it, but imagine how difficult it would be to commit to OOC games if you can't say "yes, I am available this weekend" because the league hasn't set their schedule for the upcoming year.

As an example, Yale has already released their schedule for next season. That doesn't happen without the ECAC schedule being released well in advance so the ADs / coaches can work on the OOC games during the season. Logistically, it is nearly impossible for HEA to play with anything other than 11 teams for the 2013-14 season.

Ralph you are usually much more mathematical about things-right now the 6 Ivies have to share 1 or 2 ECAC bid to the NCAA with 6 other possible schools(and have for some time). If they bolt, they have to share 1 or 2 NCAA bids (or perhaps even 3) with no one! I know I am not one to spew any math but it sure seems to me that getting 1-2 pieces of pizza out of a pie sure satisfies your hunger better than perhaps sharing those 1 or 2 pieces with 6 other hungry eaters.

In the 10 years since the Union Rule has been put into place, there will have been 6 ECAC Championship games that have been exclusively Ivy affairs. And an Ivy will grab the autobid 8 or 9 seasons. The Ivies aren't sharing the pie. The non-Ivies aren't forcing them to. Just like there's significant data that shows that HEA (with or without BC and BU) is better than the ECAC, there is significant data that shows that there is no competitive reason for the Ivies to split. Now, there are other things to take into consideration (being able to play 2 game series, fan interest, getting rid of the association with those lowly tech schools), but there is almost no competitive reason for the Ivies to leave the ECAC.

Some of them will have their pick. I don't think that Princeton and Brown (and perhaps Dartmouth) will get all of there top choices, especially the top teams in the HEA. I do agree that if it happens, the league schedule will be as you stated.

Besides for joining the HEA, which is not entirely RPI's decision, is there another choice RPI could make that appears at all possible? Joining the WCHA might be nice, but I just don't see it happening.

I would disagree with your assessment of Brown. True, this past season they only played Providence (guaranteed game for the Mayor's Cup) and UNH, but in 10-11 they played BU twice (yes, one was in a tournament) and UNH. 09-10 included a pair at St. Cloud. 08-09 included a game against Merrimack in addition to an invite to the Minnesota tournament.

You're right that they might not have their pick of teams to play against, but they won't struggle to fill their full slate of 29 games, either.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Ralph you are usually much more mathematical about things-right now the 6 Ivies have to share 1 or 2 ECAC bid to the NCAA with 6 other possible schools(and have for some time). If they bolt, they have to share 1 or 2 NCAA bids (or perhaps even 3) with no one! I know I am not one to spew any math but it sure seems to me that getting 1-2 pieces of pizza out of a pie sure satisfies your hunger better than perhaps sharing those 1 or 2 pieces with 6 other hungry eaters.

if they split they would be guaranteed one, which they have had almost every year recently anyway. More than that would depend upon the usual factors, but I don't think it will affect them except for in the odd year when they would not have gotten one now.

 

[AspyDad]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2012: An Off-Season to Be Optimistic

Yes and no. Leagues usually release their conference schedule (at least to their member schools) more than a year in advance. Bertagna went on record just before Notre Dame declared that they would join Hockey East that he normally would've already completed and sent out the 2013-14 schedule, but it was being delayed by Notre Dame's decision. That was in October.

Now, it's certainly possible that a new schedule can be worked out in the middle of this upcoming season. But, it is very beneficial to announce the league schedule well ahead of time so that schools know what weekends they have available for OOC games. HEA has the stipulation that league games can be moved if both teams agree to it, but imagine how difficult it would be to commit to OOC games if you can't say "yes, I am available this weekend" because the league hasn't set their schedule for the upcoming year.

As an example, Yale has already released their schedule for next season. That doesn't happen without the ECAC schedule being released well in advance so the ADs / coaches can work on the OOC games during the season. Logistically, it is nearly impossible for HEA to play with anything other than 11 teams for the 2013-14 season.

In the 10 years since the Union Rule has been put into place, there will have been 6 ECAC Championship games that have been exclusively Ivy affairs. And an Ivy will grab the autobid 8 or 9 seasons. The Ivies aren't sharing the pie. The non-Ivies aren't forcing them to. Just like there's significant data that shows that HEA (with or without BC and BU) is better than the ECAC, there is significant data that shows that there is no competitive reason for the Ivies to split. Now, there are other things to take into consideration (being able to play 2 game series, fan interest, getting rid of the association with those lowly tech schools), but there is almost no competitive reason for the Ivies to leave the ECAC.

I would disagree with your assessment of Brown. True, this past season they only played Providence (guaranteed game for the Mayor's Cup) and UNH, but in 10-11 they played BU twice (yes, one was in a tournament) and UNH. 09-10 included a pair at St. Cloud. 08-09 included a game against Merrimack in addition to an invite to the Minnesota tournament.

You're right that they might not have their pick of teams to play against, but they won't struggle to fill their full slate of 29 games, either.

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