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RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

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Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

Back to hockey....

Coach is a great recruiter without question. Is he a great coach? Hard to say for someone who isn't there on the ice in Troy listening to what he is telling the boys. For me, the stupid penalties are a problem. The Union game was tied and I thought we were looking OK (based on viewing it online on a fairly poor feed) before the 5 on 3. Maybe the bench minor was an over-reaction by the ref. But then AAG gets a boarding call which makes me wonder... what are they teaching the forwards on the PK? Are they simply skating their heads off and trying to hit people or are they playing smart? Down by a man for 4 minutes, I should think the coaches would tell the boys to attack the puck but not the body unless they are low in the zone and trying to prevent a scoring chance (where contact is often overlooked). Instead we take a boarding call up high. Maybe AAG was trying too hard and just did something stupid but I sure hope he wasn't just following the game plan.

Whatever the plan was, those two penalties cost us that game. We need better discipline. It seems to me that Appert's direction is to build a team that is so fast and talented that they will win on skill, effort and self motivation alone. I'm not seeing a lot of good in-game coaching out of him though. I think he is suited to building a powerhouse team and winning 25 games but I question whether he can take an average team and make it overachieve. He seems to be either overly stubborn or still on his way up the coaching learning curve.

That said, I freely admit that this is idle speculation and that I could be completely wrong. About 8 months ago everyone out this way was saying that Claude Julien couldn't coach. Now he is a shoo-in for the hall of fame ya' know!
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

jmhusker said:
Back to hockey....

Coach is a great recruiter without question. Is he a great coach? Hard to say for someone who isn't there on the ice in Troy listening to what he is telling the boys. For me, the stupid penalties are a problem. The Union game was tied and I thought we were looking OK (based on viewing it online on a fairly poor feed) before the 5 on 3. Maybe the bench minor was an over-reaction by the ref. But then AAG gets a boarding call which makes me wonder... what are they teaching the forwards on the PK? Are they simply skating their heads off and trying to hit people or are they playing smart? Down by a man for 4 minutes, I should think the coaches would tell the boys to attack the puck but not the body unless they are low in the zone and trying to prevent a scoring chance (where contact is often overlooked). Instead we take a boarding call up high. Maybe AAG was trying too hard and just did something stupid but I sure hope he wasn't just following the game plan.

Whatever the plan was, those two penalties cost us that game. We need better discipline. It seems to me that Appert's direction is to build a team that is so fast and talented that they will win on skill, effort and self motivation alone. I'm not seeing a lot of good in-game coaching out of him though. I think he is suited to building a powerhouse team and winning 25 games but I question whether he can take an average team and make it overachieve. He seems to be either overly stubborn or still on his way up the coaching learning curve.

That said, I freely admit that this is idle speculation and that I could be completely wrong. About 8 months ago everyone out this way was saying that Claude Julien couldn't coach. Now he is a shoo-in for the hall of fame ya' know!
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You can tell people to do something until you're blue in the face, but unless some form of self-discipline is instilled, it won't happen. It wouldn't doubt me that these players know they're not supposed to do something from a general standpoint, but in the heat of the moment, they forget and it still happens. Taking a penalty to stop a goal, that's going to happen. Taking a boarding or roughing because the ref thought it was too violent, that's also going to happen. Tripping or hooking because you can't move your feet, hitting someone when their back is clearly to you, interference because you can't go for the puck, that sort of stuff can be fixed by having a self-disciplined game. I believe, in the past, we've called them "stupid penalties".

"You don't have enough talent to win on talent alone." --Herb Brooks
 
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Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

Glad I looked!

jmhusker said:
Coach is a great recruiter without question. Is he a great coach?
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There are three core things that make a good college hockey coach. The first is recruiting and he does that very, very well. Don't need to run down the list. The second is development, and if you look at guys like Chase Polacek, Allen York, Alex Angers-Goulet, or Joel Malchuk, there's no question that he has the ability to take raw talent and mold it into something special. There are a couple of regrets on the list, but part of the impetus for development is on the player as well. Polacek alone would be a good example - picked up the summer before he came to RPI, and ended up a two time Hobey Baker finalist.

Then there's being a good bench coach. There are absolutely legitimate concerns about that stemming from results this year, three years ago, and in the playoffs the last two seasons. That's something it is obvious is a concern.

Totally agree with the stupid penalties, too. Still wondering just what it was that led to the extra minor after the Leboeuf penalty, considering that it put us in an even deeper hole and pretty much sealed our fate.
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

Red Cloud said:
Totally agree with the stupid penalties, too. Still wondering just what it was that led to the extra minor after the Leboeuf penalty, considering that it put us in an even deeper hole and pretty much sealed our fate.
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The only thing it could possibly be, if it was a double minor, was Guy had some words or directed frustrations. Not only would anyone find that to be unacceptable, but that would typically mean a misconduct penalty or a double minor charged to the player. If it's on the bench (which it was, according to the box score), it needs to be a 5-on-3, at least based upon a past game I have previously cited (and has video evidence, for that matter). It doesn't affect the final outcome of the game, but the inconsistency still needs to be addressed, as a lengthened 5-on-3 was given by the amount of time between Guy's and Alex's penalties.
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

FlagDUDE08 said:
The only thing it could possibly be, if it was a double minor, was Guy had some words or directed frustrations. Not only would anyone find that to be unacceptable, but that would typically mean a misconduct penalty or a double minor charged to the player. If it's on the bench (which it was, according to the box score), it needs to be a 5-on-3, at least based upon a past game I have previously cited (and has video evidence, for that matter). It doesn't affect the final outcome of the game, but the inconsistency still needs to be addressed, as a lengthened 5-on-3 was given by the amount of time between Guy's and Alex's penalties.
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We were discussing that in the stands. They called a penalty on the player, plus a bench minor for unsportsmanlike conduct - it wasn't on the same guy. But they put it up as a 4:00 penalty, with only one person in the box. And when Union scored, they just wiped out the remaining time on the first penalty and started running the 2 minutes on the second penalty, keeping the 5x3 intact for the remainder of the third penalty and keeping the same player in the box to serve the bench minor, which didn't start running until the original penalty expired. We were thinking they should have put 2 people in the box - resulting in a 5x3 - to begin with. Then one person would be released, but the second penalty would have been almost over, shortening the 5x3 as you said. This made no sense to me.
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

TimU said:
We were discussing that in the stands. They called a penalty on the player, plus a bench minor for unsportsmanlike conduct - it wasn't on the same guy. But they put it up as a 4:00 penalty, with only one person in the box. And when Union scored, they just wiped out the remaining time on the first penalty and started running the 2 minutes on the second penalty, keeping the 5x3 intact for the remainder of the third penalty and keeping the same player in the box to serve the bench minor, which didn't start running until the original penalty expired. We were thinking they should have put 2 people in the box - resulting in a 5x3 - to begin with. Then one person would be released, but the second penalty would have been almost over, shortening the 5x3 as you said. This made no sense to me.
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Here's where it was called as a 5x3, and what I have been citing:

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UXFTSHtg46w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This was a game from last year; did the rules change? I know it wasn't a rule change year, but you never know.
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

A double minor is the way it was assessed. But double minors aren't always assessed even if one player is guilty of two offenses in the same flow of play. Occasionally they are served at the same time, and when that happens, someone else is in the box serving the other penalty. In a case where the bench was being penalized, you'd think they'd have a second body in the box.

Here's what probably should have happened - Leboeuf gets a minor for his original offense, cross-checking (it says checking in the box score - I know Union's soft but I doubt they've negotiated women's rules for themselves). Another player should have gone into the box to serve the bench minor, because Leboeuf can't serve his own penalty while he's serving another penalty. That puts Union on a 2:00 5x3. The boarding penalty to Angers-Goulet 32 seconds later essentially resets Union's total due power play time to 3:28 - the remaining time on the 5x3, and then a further two minutes, AAG's penalty clock doesn't begin until the one or both of the minors on Leboeuf and the bench expire. Union then gets a 5x4 power play for two minutes - unless they score on the 5x3, which Simpson did 1:03 later. At that point, either Leboeuf or the bench penalty gets out, and Union's 5x3 continues for another 25 seconds. If Union doesn't score, that is followed by 1:35 of 5x4.

All, of course, assuming further dumb penalties are not taken.

Unless for whatever reason, it's the coach's discretion to tack on the other minor at the end of the originally penalized player's minor in order to avoid going down 5x3 - which happened anyway when AAG was penalized - I totally don't understand why it was done the way it was.
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

Red Cloud said:
A double minor is the way it was assessed. But double minors aren't always assessed even if one player is guilty of two offenses in the same flow of play. Occasionally they are served at the same time, and when that happens, someone else is in the box serving the other penalty. In a case where the bench was being penalized, you'd think they'd have a second body in the box.

Here's what probably should have happened - Leboeuf gets a minor for his original offense, cross-checking (it says checking in the box score - I know Union's soft but I doubt they've negotiated women's rules for themselves). Another player should have gone into the box to serve the bench minor, because Leboeuf can't serve his own penalty while he's serving another penalty. That puts Union on a 2:00 5x3. The boarding penalty to Angers-Goulet 32 seconds later essentially resets Union's total due power play time to 3:28 - the remaining time on the 5x3, and then a further two minutes, AAG's penalty clock doesn't begin until the one or both of the minors on Leboeuf and the bench expire. Union then gets a 5x4 power play for two minutes - unless they score on the 5x3, which Simpson did 1:03 later. At that point, either Leboeuf or the bench penalty gets out, and Union's 5x3 continues for another 25 seconds. If Union doesn't score, that is followed by 1:35 of 5x4.

All, of course, assuming further dumb penalties are not taken.

Unless for whatever reason, it's the coach's discretion to tack on the other minor at the end of the originally penalized player's minor in order to avoid going down 5x3 - which happened anyway when AAG was penalized - I totally don't understand why it was done the way it was.
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The clock doesn't start (although "off the board") on the third player in the box until visible? Obviously the team would only go to 5x4 after Guy's and the bench's penalty expires and one of the two would not be excused from the box until the next stoppage... but I didn't see anything in the rule book about the third penalty not starting...
 
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Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

FlagDUDE08 said:
The clock doesn't start (although "off the board") on the third player in the box until visible?
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I don't know what you mean by "until visible," but a team can't go down more than two players at once, so if there are already two penalties being served ahead of it - i.e. a penalty taken during a 5x3 penalty kill - that penalty does not begin until the first penalty taken ends. If that penalty ends during the course of play, that first penalized player doesn't exit the box until the first stoppage of play.
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

I have always thought that when penalties are given at the same time to two different players, they are served at the same time putting the team down two men. That is assuming there are not other penalties that overlap. And I thought that the only time that a player is out for four minutes is when he gets a double minor or two minors for different offenses at the same time. Thus unless the bench minor was on Leboeuf (for cursing for example), RPI should have been down two men for two minutes. If the bench minor was on SA, then this does not make sense, and that is what I also thought at the time. it is also a restatement of what some others have posted.
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

Red Cloud said:
I don't know what you mean by "until visible," but a team can't go down more than two players at once, so if there are already two penalties being served ahead of it - i.e. a penalty taken during a 5x3 penalty kill - that penalty does not begin until the first penalty taken ends. If that penalty ends during the course of play, that first penalized player doesn't exit the box until the first stoppage of play.
Click to expand...

Wow....look at you! Absolutely correct......are you sure you're not a closet zebra or a Noeth wannabe?:eek::D
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

FlagDUDE08 said:
The clock doesn't start (although "off the board") on the third player in the box until visible? Obviously the team would only go to 5x4 after Guy's and the bench's penalty expires and one of the two would not be excused from the box until the next stoppage... but I didn't see anything in the rule book about the third penalty not starting...
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Seems pretty clear to me:
If a player is penalized while two players of the individual’s team are serving penalties, the penalty time of the third player shall not begin until the penalty time of one of the other two players has elapsed. The third player penalized must proceed at once to the penalty bench, but may be replaced by a substitute until the penalty time of the penalized player begins (see 4-2-c).
Click to expand...
 
Re: RPI 2011 - 12 Part IV: We ain't Bailen on this season yet, Go Red!!

Ralph Baer said:
That however wasn't the original situation.
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Correct. I wasn't implying that it was. I was simply informing FD08 of the text in the rulebook that states when the penalty on a third penalized player should start.
 
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