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Robert Morris dropping men's and women's hockey.

Fighting Sioux 23 said:
Breach of Contract is only one possible claim. One could likely craft a fraud claim (as well as other similar-type claims) assuming the facts in pdt1081's post are accurate. Sorting out the damages portion of the claim might be tricky, but doable.
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As is almost always the case in litigation the discovery can be most interesting especially the digital interaction that the parties who initially thought would never be exposed are. Depositions are also very helpful in gaining an understanding of a case and if per chance the contents of those are somehow leaked to the media for the public to see often times trial strategies change.
 
AMC said:
I dunno. If you know that the Target you manage is closing in 60 days is it fraud if you don't tell your employees in time for them to go to a job fair next week?
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So, following your line….say Target upper management knew they were closing, but didn’t tell the lower management AND allowed them to hire new employees to start after they knew the store would be closed. Most of these would have given up other job opportunities to take this one only to learn they really didn’t have a job. That could be argued as fraud.
 
independent of how this will play out, the AHA will have to make their own decision about the coming season in regard to scheduling. because, really, how long do you wait? and toss in LIU and UAH to complicate things even more...

and/but maybe RMU does not play next season even if there is a reinstatement.

as of now, it's looking like a lose-lose situation for all involved.
 
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DrunkTrainPolka said:
independent of how this will play out, the AHA will have to make their own decision about the coming season in regard to scheduling. because, really, how long do you wait? and toss in LIU and UAH to complicate things even more...

as of now, it's looking like a lose-lose situation for all involved.
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RIT released their schedule today, so Atlantic Hockey has already rescheduled a 26-game league schedule without RMU. And RIT has replaced the RMU games with OOC games, while SHU looks like it only has one open date.

Sean
 
Sean Pickett said:
RMU didn't breach their contracts with the scholarship athletes. RMU said they would honor those scholarships for up to four years and an athletic scholarship is not a guarentee of playing time.

Sean
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I don't think you understood my post. Just because you didn't breach a contract doesn't mean you didn't commit fraud. They are completely different claims.
 
Bradz said:
As is almost always the case in litigation the discovery can be most interesting especially the digital interaction that the parties who initially thought would never be exposed are. Depositions are also very helpful in gaining an understanding of a case and if per chance the contents of those are somehow leaked to the media for the public to see often times trial strategies change.
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Agreed. I've never really been involved in a case where the media was terribly interested; however, taking depositions can be a lot of fun. That is particularly true where the party has skeletons in the closet. I have one of those coming up here soon.
 
Fighting Sioux 23 said:
I don't think you understood my post. Just because you didn't breach a contract doesn't mean you didn't commit fraud. They are completely different claims.
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No, I understood your post, but I only responded to your first sentence that "Breach of Contract is only one possible claim" to point out RMU didn't breach any contracts. I said nothing about your further statements regarding fraud. However, from what I have read the threat of a lawsuit is to get RMU to reinstate the hockey programs and that not only looks unlikely, but with AHA teams starting to release their schedules even if RMU did reinstate both programs I don't think the league would accept them back with 2021-22 schedules already reworked and extra OOC games added. Then you also have the UAH factor of "you've already dropped hockey once and might do it again." So maybe the lawsuit goes forward, but who will pay the lawyers? Are they working pro bono? Or maybe for a percentage of the settlement?

As for the lawsuit itself, say they do sue for fraud and win, can RMU be forced to reinstate the programs, or would it just be a monetary settlement? Either way, I think such a ruling taken to the extreme could require that every DI and DII school that offered athletic scholarships would have to take at least four years to wind down and drop any program that had scholarships to avoid also being sued for fraud.

Sean
 
-IF- there is a monetary settlement, it's one more reason to assure the teams don't come back... the school will not be up for 'losing' money 'twice'.

LIU is close to many teams and can possibly be an independent team for long time since travel is trivial for them - specially when compared to the UA* teams.

as it stands, i don't see RMU, UAH, and UAA fielding hockey teams... UAF will survive for the time being.

but this soap-opera is far from over when you also consider in LU and AU will be looking for a home.
 
Fighting Sioux 23 said:
Agreed. I've never really been involved in a case where the media was terribly interested; however, taking depositions can be a lot of fun. That is particularly true where the party has skeletons in the closet. I have one of those coming up here soon.
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The media interest goes far beyond USCHO but it is hard to evaluate outside of the hockey community, even so the trick is how to properly leak the evidence to the media without violating professional conduct and ethics rules. :)
 
wsummers said:
So, following your line….say Target upper management knew they were closing, but didn’t tell the lower management AND allowed them to hire new employees to start after they knew the store would be closed. Most of these would have given up other job opportunities to take this one only to learn they really didn’t have a job. That could be argued as fraud.
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Sadly, that happens all the time in business.

I once hired someone and three weeks after they started, was told the budget for the person was axed, after I was assured we had the money. I had to lay the person off. (The hire was a contractor, so it made the firing a bit "easier" but it still sucked all around and was borderline unethical.)
 
Russell Jaslow said:
Sadly, that happens all the time in business.

I once hired someone and three weeks after they started, was told the budget for the person was axed, after I was assured we had the money. I had to lay the person off. (The hire was a contractor, so it made the firing a bit "easier" but it still sucked all around and was borderline unethical.)
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Legal or not, I detest unethical behavior and the RMU president and board acted in an unethical manner. I serve on a couple of public boards and I would never approve of this. I understand one board member resigned…apparently he was the only ethical person there.
 
Sean Pickett said:
No, I understood your post, but I only responded to your first sentence that "Breach of Contract is only one possible claim" to point out RMU didn't breach any contracts. I said nothing about your further statements regarding fraud. However, from what I have read the threat of a lawsuit is to get RMU to reinstate the hockey programs and that not only looks unlikely, but with AHA teams starting to release their schedules even if RMU did reinstate both programs I don't think the league would accept them back with 2021-22 schedules already reworked and extra OOC games added. Then you also have the UAH factor of "you've already dropped hockey once and might do it again." So maybe the lawsuit goes forward, but who will pay the lawyers? Are they working pro bono? Or maybe for a percentage of the settlement?

As for the lawsuit itself, say they do sue for fraud and win, can RMU be forced to reinstate the programs, or would it just be a monetary settlement? Either way, I think such a ruling taken to the extreme could require that every DI and DII school that offered athletic scholarships would have to take at least four years to wind down and drop any program that had scholarships to avoid also being sued for fraud.

Sean
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Then I guess I don't understand why you responded to my post in the first place. I was never arguing that there was a breach of contract.

As to what the remedies would be, it would almost certainly be money damages for fraud.
 
pdt1081 said:
Did you read the article? While the transfer portal was busy with other players trying to put themselves in a better position for their future, RMU was carrying on with business as usual. Even after the decision was made, it was kept from the players and coaches. The school waited until the commotion with the portal basically stopped to announce the cuts. The players remained committed to a program they didn't even know was in trouble, instead of trying to take advantage of the portal. Had the players been told the program was in jeopardy, or even told when the decision was actually made, they would have had a better chance at furthering their careers.
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Yes, I read the article that came out after I made my comment. I bolded a sentence of your comment. You and the players' lawyers seem to be assuming that a decision had been made that was sat on for a period of time. While I haven't been scouring the interwebs for articles, I haven't seen anything that supports that. Do we know that the announcement wasn't made 20 minutes after the decision was made? Can the players' lawyers prove that a decision was made and then sat on for a long period of time? And I'm not talking about two administrators discussing it, I'm talking about the actual point at which the decision was made. All the quotes from the lawyers seemed to assume that that was the case, that there is no other possibility. I haven't seen the proof of it. Heck, I haven't even seen the alleged proof of it. As others have stated, the contract between the school and the players was that the school would provide an education in exchange for the athletes chance to play hockey. If a kid gets cut from the team, the school still has to provide the education. And that is what they are doing.

Seriously: can somebody point to the hanging chad that would lead me to believe that a decision had been made and kept from the teams.
 
UncleRay said:
Yes, I read the article that came out after I made my comment. I bolded a sentence of your comment. You and the players' lawyers seem to be assuming that a decision had been made that was sat on for a period of time. While I haven't been scouring the interwebs for articles, I haven't seen anything that supports that. Do we know that the announcement wasn't made 20 minutes after the decision was made? Can the players' lawyers prove that a decision was made and then sat on for a long period of time? And I'm not talking about two administrators discussing it, I'm talking about the actual point at which the decision was made. All the quotes from the lawyers seemed to assume that that was the case, that there is no other possibility. I haven't seen the proof of it. Heck, I haven't even seen the alleged proof of it. As others have stated, the contract between the school and the players was that the school would provide an education in exchange for the athletes chance to play hockey. If a kid gets cut from the team, the school still has to provide the education. And that is what they are doing.

Seriously: can somebody point to the hanging chad that would lead me to believe that a decision had been made and kept from the teams.
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You mean this?
During a video call June 1 with players, King said he was informed about the decision to eliminate the programs “about a week after graduation.”

Robert Morris’ graduation weekend was May 6-8. Players weren’t informed of cuts until May 26, the same day the public was informed.
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https://triblive.com/sports/robert-...-ncaa-in-supreme-court-represented-tom-brady/

Or this?
You can bet Kessler has a copy of Robert Morris athletic director Chris King recorded on a Zoom call telling student-athletes that the university bosses intentionally withheld plans to dissolve the programs from players and coaches in the name of a “PR strategy.”

You’ve also got King admitting that roughly three weeks went by between when he was informed the programs were likely to be eliminated and when players were allowed to find out.

Poor King. All he was doing was being transparent. A rare quality in that administration.

Do you know how I’m so confident Kessler has that tape? Because I have that tape! If someone got it to me, someone got it to him.
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https://triblive.com/sports/tim-ben...-legal-brawl-with-hockey-players-new-lawyers/
 
pdt1081 said:
You mean this?


https://triblive.com/sports/robert-...-ncaa-in-supreme-court-represented-tom-brady/

Or this?


https://triblive.com/sports/tim-ben...-legal-brawl-with-hockey-players-new-lawyers/
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Yep. Exactly that. Info that was not reported on in the USCHO article. Or CHN, for that matter. Thank you. I'm not sure what a couple week's difference in notice would have meant to any of the players, frankly. Potentially illegal and fraudulent? Ok, sure. But what are the damages? Some kids don't get to play hockey for a year? Whoop-de-do.
 
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