Slap Shot
I got nothing
Was referring to this: The fact is you need hard work and luck. But if somebody points that out, people react defensively and say, "whaddya mean luck, I worked hard!"*
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Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
- Thread starter Handyman
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Was referring to this: The fact is you need hard work and luck. But if somebody points that out, people react defensively and say, "whaddya mean luck, I worked hard!"*
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
I'd guess most have some sort of mental problem. A small portion just had some bad luck, and an even smaller portion actually choose that life. There was one guy around the area where I grew up (Crystal MN) who was known as The Crystal Bum. Everyone knew who he was, and he apparently had a substantial amount of money (relatively; he could have had a place to live and such) but chose the life because he didn't want to have any responsibility. He was around for quite a few years.
I'd guess most have some sort of mental problem. A small portion just had some bad luck, and an even smaller portion actually choose that life. There was one guy around the area where I grew up (Crystal MN) who was known as The Crystal Bum. Everyone knew who he was, and he apparently had a substantial amount of money (relatively; he could have had a place to live and such) but chose the life because he didn't want to have any responsibility. He was around for quite a few years.
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
I read up on the massive homeless problem in Honolulu a few years ago, travelling back and forth you notice homelessness is a very big problem in that city. The state has found that it takes some pretty big incentives to get very many to come inside and work for a living, even after they pushed them out of Waikiki into the tarp cities by the airport. Much of the blame fell on drugs and mental illness, often working in tandem.
Sure, it wouldn't take a fully furnished apartment and three squares a day for most of the homeless to come inside in Flint MI. But for some of them, that still wouldn't do it. The agencies always tie it to drug testing and counseling, which some people will avoid at the literal cost of their life.
I read up on the massive homeless problem in Honolulu a few years ago, travelling back and forth you notice homelessness is a very big problem in that city. The state has found that it takes some pretty big incentives to get very many to come inside and work for a living, even after they pushed them out of Waikiki into the tarp cities by the airport. Much of the blame fell on drugs and mental illness, often working in tandem.
Sure, it wouldn't take a fully furnished apartment and three squares a day for most of the homeless to come inside in Flint MI. But for some of them, that still wouldn't do it. The agencies always tie it to drug testing and counseling, which some people will avoid at the literal cost of their life.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
I don't think that's condescending at all (also, I was not trying to call you out -- I think you know my callouts are pretty explicit). Plus I do think that people who work hard and dig themselves out of a hole react defensively when it's pointed out that working hard, while necessary, is not sufficient. And I don't understand this, because pointing that out doesn't tarnish the value of their hard work at all.
I don't think that's condescending at all (also, I was not trying to call you out -- I think you know my callouts are pretty explicit). Plus I do think that people who work hard and dig themselves out of a hole react defensively when it's pointed out that working hard, while necessary, is not sufficient. And I don't understand this, because pointing that out doesn't tarnish the value of their hard work at all.
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
Fair enough, but since I was the only one of recent note saying as much...
And I recognize it's not always that simple and that hard working people still fail. But I'm more inclined to believe that outright failure (living below the poverty level with no prospects for recovery in sight) is far less about opportunity than effort on the whole.
That's not saying we can't or shouldn't do more to help, starting with companies where salary disparities are obscene.
Fair enough, but since I was the only one of recent note saying as much...
And I recognize it's not always that simple and that hard working people still fail. But I'm more inclined to believe that outright failure (living below the poverty level with no prospects for recovery in sight) is far less about opportunity than effort on the whole.
That's not saying we can't or shouldn't do more to help, starting with companies where salary disparities are obscene.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
Yeah, I can see that, and I apologize for giving that impression.
We'll just have to disagree about the degree to which irreparable poverty is about effort.
Yeah, I can see that, and I apologize for giving that impression.
We'll just have to disagree about the degree to which irreparable poverty is about effort.
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
My biggest complaint about my (white collar) job is that I only get 3 weeks of vacation a year (going to get a 4th week next year for my 10th year of service - I really think a 4th week should be awarded at 5 years and a 5th week at 10). The good thing is it is a laid back atmosphere. If it's really nice out and we're reasonably caught up on projects, we might just head out of the office and go for a hike (a National Park is literally our neighbor - I can leave my desk and be at a hiking trail in 10 minutes). Or if I need to pick my 6 yr old son up at school its not a big deal. Good health insurance, a wellness program with onsite fitness classes & 24 hour gym, tuition reimbursement, 5% base + 5% match employer retirement contribution (so they contribute 10%). The work-hours flexibility is a big perk, and not all jobs at the company lend themselves to that kind of arrangement.
But we're also a strange company. Lots of PhDs and other white collar workers, but also large numbers of blue collar workers. We're a genetics research lab but we also have a business component selling research services (contract experiments/tests) and mouse models. Producing and selling millions of mice per year (many with specific mutations that cause disease) requires a lot of hands. We have animal care workers, forklift drivers, plumbers, electricians, hvac/facilities engineers, cleaning/sterilization workers, accountants, customer service reps, sales reps, software engineers, systems administrators, research assistants, statisticians, veterinarians, histologists, biomedical engineers, research scientists, principal investigators, etc. HUGE diversity in education and backgrounds (the blue collar workers tend to be locals from "Downeast", white collar workers come from all over the world).
My biggest complaint about my (white collar) job is that I only get 3 weeks of vacation a year (going to get a 4th week next year for my 10th year of service - I really think a 4th week should be awarded at 5 years and a 5th week at 10). The good thing is it is a laid back atmosphere. If it's really nice out and we're reasonably caught up on projects, we might just head out of the office and go for a hike (a National Park is literally our neighbor - I can leave my desk and be at a hiking trail in 10 minutes). Or if I need to pick my 6 yr old son up at school its not a big deal. Good health insurance, a wellness program with onsite fitness classes & 24 hour gym, tuition reimbursement, 5% base + 5% match employer retirement contribution (so they contribute 10%). The work-hours flexibility is a big perk, and not all jobs at the company lend themselves to that kind of arrangement.
But we're also a strange company. Lots of PhDs and other white collar workers, but also large numbers of blue collar workers. We're a genetics research lab but we also have a business component selling research services (contract experiments/tests) and mouse models. Producing and selling millions of mice per year (many with specific mutations that cause disease) requires a lot of hands. We have animal care workers, forklift drivers, plumbers, electricians, hvac/facilities engineers, cleaning/sterilization workers, accountants, customer service reps, sales reps, software engineers, systems administrators, research assistants, statisticians, veterinarians, histologists, biomedical engineers, research scientists, principal investigators, etc. HUGE diversity in education and backgrounds (the blue collar workers tend to be locals from "Downeast", white collar workers come from all over the world).
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
The interviews in this radio story this morning were illuminating. One small example of how much it sucks to be in poverty and how difficult it can be to escape.
I just realized this is part 2.
The interviews in this radio story this morning were illuminating. One small example of how much it sucks to be in poverty and how difficult it can be to escape.
I just realized this is part 2.
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Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
My wife's oldest brother has a kid who's 21-22. Generally good kid. But his family is a pretty blue collar family, and the kid will be blue collar all his life. Graduate from high school, manual labor/truck driver type jobs are his destiny.
Got a car at 19. Racked up a few speeding tickets, etc... Didn't bother to pay the fines. This is in Illinois, where eventually his license was suspended. But he keeps driving. Reason? He has to get to his job.
I admit, he's got a problem. Doesn't have a license and needs to get to his job. Not sure if he has public transportation or car pool opportunities, but if he does he doesn't appear to take advantage of them.
What I do know is that driving with a suspended license for 9 months, hoping he doesn't get caught, is not a good solution, and one likely to work.
On the other hand, what is the solution? People violate traffic offenses, rich and poor. (Of course, in these stories it's always "just a broken taillight.") Do the poor get to skip paying because they are poor? Doesn't seem like a good plan. People will say that we should hold them accountable, but not by taking away the one thing they need to get to work. Ok, so how do we hold them accountable?
I know in Minnesota there is a system called "revenue recapture" where money owed to public agencies can be recovered by a process where they submit the proper documentation, then the department of revenue withholds that amount from any tax refund.
That's probably the best system available, although it can probably only be used to collect relatively small amounts at best.
This is an interesting problem. I have some tangential experience with exactly this.
My wife's oldest brother has a kid who's 21-22. Generally good kid. But his family is a pretty blue collar family, and the kid will be blue collar all his life. Graduate from high school, manual labor/truck driver type jobs are his destiny.
Got a car at 19. Racked up a few speeding tickets, etc... Didn't bother to pay the fines. This is in Illinois, where eventually his license was suspended. But he keeps driving. Reason? He has to get to his job.
I admit, he's got a problem. Doesn't have a license and needs to get to his job. Not sure if he has public transportation or car pool opportunities, but if he does he doesn't appear to take advantage of them.
What I do know is that driving with a suspended license for 9 months, hoping he doesn't get caught, is not a good solution, and one likely to work.
On the other hand, what is the solution? People violate traffic offenses, rich and poor. (Of course, in these stories it's always "just a broken taillight.") Do the poor get to skip paying because they are poor? Doesn't seem like a good plan. People will say that we should hold them accountable, but not by taking away the one thing they need to get to work. Ok, so how do we hold them accountable?
I know in Minnesota there is a system called "revenue recapture" where money owed to public agencies can be recovered by a process where they submit the proper documentation, then the department of revenue withholds that amount from any tax refund.
That's probably the best system available, although it can probably only be used to collect relatively small amounts at best.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
Seattle had a wonderful homeless problem...some were of course mentally ill but many of them were just white bourgious liberals who wanted to slum it to show they had it rough too! They would walk up and down The Ave. (the main drag at UW) smoking copious amounts of weed, playing drums and never working/showering. They had kids and dogs and would harass you for cigarettes while scoping free drinks/internet from the local coffee house and sleeping in an alley. They gamed the system as best they could...
Put it this way, my girlfriend's heart bleeds and even she could not stand it there and sounded like a Faux News Pundit after a couple of days.
Me, I just had to go back to bartending part time because my 9-5 is not enough to save anything. I made more in 6 hours yesterday than I will by noon Wednesday at the day job...it sucks not having a weekend but I dont want to struggle for ever. I am lucky no doubt.
Seattle had a wonderful homeless problem...some were of course mentally ill but many of them were just white bourgious liberals who wanted to slum it to show they had it rough too! They would walk up and down The Ave. (the main drag at UW) smoking copious amounts of weed, playing drums and never working/showering. They had kids and dogs and would harass you for cigarettes while scoping free drinks/internet from the local coffee house and sleeping in an alley. They gamed the system as best they could...
Put it this way, my girlfriend's heart bleeds and even she could not stand it there and sounded like a Faux News Pundit after a couple of days.
Me, I just had to go back to bartending part time because my 9-5 is not enough to save anything. I made more in 6 hours yesterday than I will by noon Wednesday at the day job...it sucks not having a weekend but I dont want to struggle for ever. I am lucky no doubt.
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
I'll recommend another read on why growing income inequality is bad: "What Wealth Does to Your Soul." It's not new information, but compellingly presented.
I'll recommend another read on why growing income inequality is bad: "What Wealth Does to Your Soul." It's not new information, but compellingly presented.
Then ethics and/or morality was not taught to said individuals in their formative years.
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
You seem to have missed the essential element of "the deal": it is a trade-off of one tax for another, there is no tax avoidance. Either you have an estate tax + step up in basis or you have a capital gains tax + carryforward basis and no estate tax.
The step-up in basis plays no role in how the mega-rich transfer money between generations since the estate tax has been 50% - 55% for that entire time period, with a low exemption. Only after the 2008 election did the estate tax exemption get raised and the estate tax rate lowered to 40%.
You seem to have missed the essential element of "the deal": it is a trade-off of one tax for another, there is no tax avoidance. Either you have an estate tax + step up in basis or you have a capital gains tax + carryforward basis and no estate tax.
The step-up in basis plays no role in how the mega-rich transfer money between generations since the estate tax has been 50% - 55% for that entire time period, with a low exemption. Only after the 2008 election did the estate tax exemption get raised and the estate tax rate lowered to 40%.
St. Clown
Liberal Rebel Scum, apparently
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
I don't know that I would agree with that cause/effect proposal. In fact, there's nothing in that article that directly shows which is the cause and which is the effect. Did the money create the jerk attitude or does having a jerk attitude make the person more apt to become rich? The article only stated that they observed rich people being selfish. Congrats, we see that all the time in life. We have a self-proclaimed rich person on this very site who likes to brag about his income compared to others on here and takes absolute glee in acting like a jerk. Did becoming rich (assumption) make him that way or was it the other way around?
I don't know that I would agree with that cause/effect proposal. In fact, there's nothing in that article that directly shows which is the cause and which is the effect. Did the money create the jerk attitude or does having a jerk attitude make the person more apt to become rich? The article only stated that they observed rich people being selfish. Congrats, we see that all the time in life. We have a self-proclaimed rich person on this very site who likes to brag about his income compared to others on here and takes absolute glee in acting like a jerk. Did becoming rich (assumption) make him that way or was it the other way around?
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
I have to think it can happen both ways. Just my opinion, but some people who "make it" seem to develop the attitude that they earned it because they are better and start to resent the less fortunate/driven for being less motivated or whatever. IMO if some of those same people had stayed poor they would have held on to their empathy.
edit: I'm a little surprised this discussion hasn't gone full-bore partisan yet, but if anyone is tempted to go there, I would assert that there are just as many "liberal elites" as there are "fat cat Republicans". Income inequality reversal, like personal liberties, should be a nonpartisan cause.
I have to think it can happen both ways. Just my opinion, but some people who "make it" seem to develop the attitude that they earned it because they are better and start to resent the less fortunate/driven for being less motivated or whatever. IMO if some of those same people had stayed poor they would have held on to their empathy.
edit: I'm a little surprised this discussion hasn't gone full-bore partisan yet, but if anyone is tempted to go there, I would assert that there are just as many "liberal elites" as there are "fat cat Republicans". Income inequality reversal, like personal liberties, should be a nonpartisan cause.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
It should and insofar as conservatives want to see barriers to people lifting themselves out of poverty, it can be. The problem is the super rich become a rentier class with a symbiosis with government: they bribe, er I mean contribute to officials who then use the money to brainwash, er I mean educate, voters. For whatever reason most conservatives turn a blind eye to this obvious corruption of the democratic process.
Real conservatives should want to break down the largest concentrations of wealth because it is by tapping those concentrations that government intrudes into the supposedly free market. Bless their heart, conservatives think capitalism works, so why do they sometimes tacitly, sometimes explicitly support the very forces that are undermining it? The only answer I can see is that they are being cynical: they know those forces are most likely to push government in directions they more or less agree with.
It should and insofar as conservatives want to see barriers to people lifting themselves out of poverty, it can be. The problem is the super rich become a rentier class with a symbiosis with government: they bribe, er I mean contribute to officials who then use the money to brainwash, er I mean educate, voters. For whatever reason most conservatives turn a blind eye to this obvious corruption of the democratic process.
Real conservatives should want to break down the largest concentrations of wealth because it is by tapping those concentrations that government intrudes into the supposedly free market. Bless their heart, conservatives think capitalism works, so why do they sometimes tacitly, sometimes explicitly support the very forces that are undermining it? The only answer I can see is that they are being cynical: they know those forces are most likely to push government in directions they more or less agree with.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
No, I understood it completely. I'd rather have an estate tax AND remove the step up.
No, I understood it completely. I'd rather have an estate tax AND remove the step up.
Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!
FYP. I don't think someone can say "the problem is the other party" on this issue, Mr. Soros. For partisans of either stripe, corruption seems to be OK as long as we agree with the ends.
FYP. I don't think someone can say "the problem is the other party" on this issue, Mr. Soros. For partisans of either stripe, corruption seems to be OK as long as we agree with the ends.
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