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RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

More to the point...if this is true, why does she come forward now, after all these years?
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
More to the point...if this is true, why does she come forward now, after all these years?
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Not an unreasonable question. I'm guessing the answer, from Pepper, will be something along the lines of "she tried to tell the truth, but the fix was in and they ignored her." If it weren't so many years ago, the first place I'd begin to investigate her claim would be that pantry in the Ambassador Hotel. Was she actually there that night? Any witnesses?
 
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Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Old Pio said:
I learned that factoid from a panel discussion about the movie and Garrison involving local NO experts, one of whom was a long time crime reporter for the Times Picayune. Garrison's JFK investigation (for which he solicited donations from the public!) was one of the worst miscarriages of justice, ever. He had nothing on Clay Shaw except vicious gossip from people like Perry Russo. Maybe Garrison had it in for Shaw because he was gay. But even in those days, that was hardly newsflash material in the Quarter.

Here's the problem with "JFK" as I see it: Millions of young Americans will rely on it as their "primary source" for the assassination. Some of them might have been encouraged to do some additional reading. Some of them, like you, might even be inclined to read something that supports the "official" version. However, I fear most of 'em just moved on to other things. The movie is their "history" and their "truth."

Yeah, Pesci was great: "Don't you get it? The shooters don't even know."
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spot on, I concur that thousands walked away from that movie believing they'd "found" the truth and thought no further about it or read no further. it's an unfortunate truth we've become a mc-reading/usa today type culture.

re: garrison I found out about the marcello thing probably the same way you did. but w/all the books I've read over the years (yeah, la costra nostra history is pretty fascinating to me) my god, Marcello is right up there w/any of the top bosses w/murder, and all the rest. how he floated free under Garrison's watch is inexcusable. FBI should have been pressuring Garrison to take action but I guess that's a line that cannot be crossed?
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

solovsfett said:
spot on, I concur that thousands walked away from that movie believing they'd "found" the truth and thought no further about it or read no further. it's an unfortunate truth we've become a mc-reading/usa today type culture.

re: garrison I found out about the marcello thing probably the same way you did. but w/all the books I've read over the years (yeah, la costra nostra history is pretty fascinating to me) my god, Marcello is right up there w/any of the top bosses w/murder, and all the rest. how he floated free under Garrison's watch is inexcusable. FBI should have been pressuring Garrison to take action but I guess that's a line that cannot be crossed?
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I grew up in a western 'burb of Chicago when the mob was at its most powerful. Many of the big guys lived there, including Tony Accardo the Babe Ruth of mobsters, who ran the "outfit" for nearly 50 years and was never charged, let alone convicted of anything. Anthony "the ant" Spilotro also lived there. He was the guy Pesci played in "Casino." He had a couple of dozen murders on his resume. And yes, he and his brother were beaten to a pulp and buried in the same grave on a mob owned farm in Indiana. I went to grade school with the sons of Sam "Teetz" Battaglia, and became pretty good friends with John DeStefano, whose father ran the juice loan business in Chicago. Sam Giancanna, the guy who pimped for JFK and whose girl friend was Phyllis McGuire, also lived there and was whacked when his name came up in congressional testimony about "Operation Mongoose," the Kennedy effort to "whack out the beard" as Pesci said of the effort to kill Castro.

Anyway, don't forget, for the longest time Hoover wasn't interested in going after the mob. As I say, I think NO, being smaller, with a tourist based economy, was much more under the thumb of the mob than was Chicago. Although Chicago did have the heavy hitters.
 
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Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Old Pio said:
I grew up in a western 'burb of Chicago when the mob was at its most powerful. Many of the big guys lived there, including Tony Accardo the Babe Ruth of mobsters, who ran the "outfit" for nearly 50 years and was never charged, let alone convicted of anything. Anthony "the ant" Spilotro also lived there. He was the guy Pesci played in "Casino." He had a couple of dozen murders on his resume. And yes, he and his brother were beaten to a pulp and buried in the same grave on a mob owned farm in Indiana. I went to grade school with the sons of Sam "Teetz" Battaglia, and became pretty good friends with John DeStefano, whose father ran the juice loan business in Chicago. Sam Giancanna, the guy who pimped for JFK and whose girl friend was Phyllis McGuire, also lived there and was whacked when his name came up in congressional testimony about "Operation Mongoose," the Kennedy effort to "whack out the beard" as Pesci said of the effort to kill Castro.

Anyway, don't forget, for the longest time Hoover wasn't interested in going after the mob. As I say, I think NO, being smaller, with a tourist based economy, was much more under the thumb of the mob than was Chicago. Although Chicago did have the heavy hitters.
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wow. great story. I've read about Accardo and Spilotro (they finally found his resting place about 5 years ago I believe, he and his brother). Hoover...yeah, apparently no-one has the time to investigate why he sat on his hands for decades until Bobby Kennedy got somewhat serious about going after the mob.

Read the book behind Donnie Brasco and it's follow-up. great stuff. what the movie didn't show is Brasco was sent to Milwaukee to set-up Frank Balistreri. Frank was to be made the 6th member of the 5 families in the early 80's (the guy blew up a few people and I guess that made the right impression) but his tax problems (IIIRC) derailed that. Anyway, he told Brasco to his face at a dinner with a 2nd FBI undercover (who was there to help Brasco), a guy who was "from New York", that he/Brasco was lucky that night. if the 2nd guy hadn't of shown up Balistreri said he was going to kill Brasco as he thought he was FBI. Eventually Frank stopped returning Brasco's phone calls and the FBI moved him back out of milwaukee (in fear of his life really)

Brasco's time in milwaukee was all in my old neighborhood on the East side (save for his time @ Balisteri's home), brady street area. it's frightening what these guys did and got away with. Brasco should have gotten a presidential medal of freedom for his service
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

This is a fantastic thread. I've probably learned more about the various theories and controversies surrounding the JFK assassination here than anywhere else (it's not something I've researched or am particularly persuaded about by either way).

Manchester's line is very compelling and it certainly captures something at the heart of the conspiratorial mindset. It's also true that an event 50 years ago is still generating a lot of money for people devoted to both promulgating and debunking conspiracies.

I doubt we will ever "know."
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Kepler said:
I don't see why, unless the witness is suggesting Obama fired the second shot. ;)
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it would of course have required some editing... some links... and a conclusion of MOST PEOPLE WILL DELETE THIS, BUT I WON'T!! I HAVE THE GUTS TO PASS IT ALONG.. DO YOU?!?!

:D
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Well that's the real question, isn't it? Why? The how and the who is just scenery for the public. Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, the Mafia. Keeps 'em guessing like some kind of parlor game, prevents 'em from asking the most important question, why? Why was Kennedy killed? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

French Rage said:
Well that's the real question, isn't it? Why? The how and the who is just scenery for the public. Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, the Mafia. Keeps 'em guessing like some kind of parlor game, prevents 'em from asking the most important question, why? Why was Kennedy killed? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?
Click to expand...

Why was Kennedy killed? He wanted to abolish the Federal Reserve.

The other two questions should be obvious.
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

French Rage said:
Well that's the real question, isn't it? Why? The how and the who is just scenery for the public. Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, the Mafia. Keeps 'em guessing like some kind of parlor game, prevents 'em from asking the most important question, why? Why was Kennedy killed? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?
Click to expand...
Fine, cui bono?

1. The mob. The Kennedys were after them.
2. The CIA. JFK knew their secrets and wouldn't play ball.
3. J. Edgar. The gig was up.
4. The Commies. Payback for the CMC.
5. Right wing nutjobs. The far right thought Kennedy was a Commie.
6. The Cubans (either side). Payback for the BoP.
7. Joe Senior's enemies. The most hated man in America had more than his share.
8. LBJ. If you aim for the king, don't miss.
9. China. JFK was famously paranoid about the PRC and might have started a nuclear war.
10. The State Department. See 9.

Have I forgotten anybody? Because... I mean... who didn't want to kill Kennedy?

Edit: oh, apparently I did forget somebody (the Fed). Never heard that one. Good catch! :)
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Kepler said:
Edit: oh, apparently I did forget somebody (the Fed). Never heard that one. Good catch! :)
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I actually had to look that up to make sure it fit. The Fed was given 50 years to stay in business. It was created on 23 December 1913. Kennedy was assassinated 22 November 1963, about one month before the Fed was to be renewed.
 
Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Kepler said:
Fine, cui bono?

1. The mob. The Kennedys were after them.
2. The CIA. JFK knew their secrets and wouldn't play ball.
3. J. Edgar. The gig was up.
4. The Commies. Payback for the CMC.
5. Right wing nutjobs. The far right thought Kennedy was a Commie.
6. The Cubans (either side). Payback for the BoP.
7. Joe Senior's enemies. The most hated man in America had more than his share.
8. LBJ. If you aim for the king, don't miss.
9. China. JFK was famously paranoid about the PRC and might have started a nuclear war.
10. The State Department. See 9.

Have I forgotten anybody? Because... I mean... who didn't want to kill Kennedy?

Edit: oh, apparently I did forget somebody (the Fed). Never heard that one. Good catch! :)
Click to expand...

Two of my favorites are not on your list: Corsican drugdealers (according to the series The Men Who Killed Kennedy which aired on The History Channel back in the days before American Restoration). And my personal favorite: George de Morenschildt (sp) Oswald's white Russian friend in Dallas. Someone once sent me a whole packet of material claiming George was the guy. And pointing to a woman clearly visible in the Zapruder film wearing what appears to be a black rain coat. The claim was that was George, in drag, firing machine pistols, which nobody noticed and somehow fired bullets that were a ballistic match to Oswald's rifle.

You would think that after the passage of nearly 5 decades these conspiracy "historians" would by now have narrowed down the field just a bit. Alas, no.

I don't mean to be a prig, but you've evidently forgotten our conversation about "gig" vs "jig." Jig is the correct usage and is racially neutral.
 
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Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

In the extended CNN article, William Pepper claims that as a consequence of there being a "second shooter" in that pantry, Sirhan B. Sirhan is "innocent."

Let your mind drift back to that awful event. A tiny pantry in the Ambassador Hotel is crowded with Kennedy staff, media, supporters and hotel workers. Suddenly shots ring out. And several of Bobby's supporters (chief among them all-pro defensive lineman Rosie Grier) leap on the man with the gun, subdue him and disarm him. According to Pepper they were delusiional. There was somebody else in that crowded, tiny pantry who was shooting AND NONE OF THEM SAW HIM. Those people who grabbed Sirhan were obviously misled by the gun in his hand and the muzzle flashes. Hard to understand how they jumped to the conclusion he was the shooter.

It's interesting that much of the argument here brings up echos of Dallas (in the Air Force we called it "sos" ) There's some sort of "accoustic expert" who claims his analysis of an audio tape reveals there were 12 to 14 shots, and since the capacity of Sirhan's pistol was only 8 shots "that means there has to have been a second shooter." Right. Like maybe the "accoustic experts" who assured the House Assassinations Committee that with a "probability of 90%" there were four shots fired in Dallas. And that means "there has to have been a second shooter." It took a rock musician in Ohio to discover that these "accoustic experts" were in fact, analyzing a tape from the trade center, not Dealey Plaza. Oh, well.

So, getting back to Pepper and his "witness." She doesn't claim to have seen another shooter. She claims to have "counted" more than 8 shots, thus "proving" there was more than one shooter. So we're in that pantry. Crowded. The Kennedy party pushing to get through. Suddenly, shots ring out. And this lady's first instinct is TO START COUNTING . "one. . . .two. . . .threefourfive. . . .sixseven. . .eight. . . .nineteneleven. . ..twelve (and maybe thirteen and fourteen.) But while she's carefully toting up the number of shots fired (and the direction from which they're coming) she somehow doesn't notice who's doing the shooting. Let's just say I'm skeptical. Is she lying? That's a possibility. But I doubt it. Is she miskaken? Almost certainly. Remember, in Dealey Plaza, with dozens of witnesses, the consensus was three shots. Although some folks (carefully reported by conspiracists) heard more. But the vast majority heard three.

A guy like Pepper works the room. He follows up on "witnesses," tracks them down, interviews them, flatters them, maybe takes 'em out to dinner maybe throws a couple of martinis into them. And they get to relive the most dramatic moment in their lives and participate in his great quest to "correct the record." One thing you will definitely NOT hear from Pepper, is any interview or data which don't fit into his conspiracy theory. Sort of like the JFK conspiracists who never mention the three depository employees on the 5th floor, who testified they heard three rifle shots directly overhead. There's photographic proof they were where they said they were, and their credibility has never been challenged. So what you do if you're a conspiracist and there's some inconvenient evidence, is ignore it.

As the private detective says in "Pyshco,": "if it don't gel it ain't aspic." Well, this doesn't gel in my mind. She's got presence of mind enough to "know" that there were 12 to `14 shots but somehow overlooks eyeballing the other dude with the gun.

The little matter of Sirhan's confession, guilty plea, and matching the bullets that hit RFK to his gun are mere details. But this little lady was in there. . .counting.
 
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Re: RFK Assassination: witness tells CNN 2 shooters

Old Pio said:
In the extended CNN article, William Pepper claims that as a consequence of there being a "second shooter" in that pantry, Sirhan B. Sirhan is "innocent."

Let your mind drift back to that awful event. A tiny pantry in the Ambassador Hotel is crowded with Kennedy staff, media, supporters and hotel workers. Suddenly shots ring out. And several of Bobby's supporters (chief among them all-pro defensive lineman Rosie Grier) leap on the man with the gun, subdue him and disarm him. According to Pepper they were delusiional. There was somebody else in that crowded, tiny pantry who was shooting AND NONE OF THEM SAW HIM. Those people who grabbed Sirhan were obviously mislead by the gun in his hand and the muzzle flashes. Hard to understand how they jumped to the conclusion he was the shooter.

It's interesting that much of the argument here brings up echos of Dallas. There's some sort of "accoustic expert" who claims his analysis of an audio tape reveals there were 12 to 14 shots, and since the capacity of Sirhan's pistol was only 8 shots "that means there has to have been a second shooter." Right. Like maybe the "accoustic experts" who assured the House Assassinations Committee that with a "probability of 90%" there were four shots fired in Dallas. And that means "there has to have been a second shooter." It took a rock musician in Ohio to discover that these "accoustic experts" were in fact, analyzing a tape from the trade center, not Dealey Plaza. Oh, well.

So, getting back to Pepper and his "witness." She doesn't claim to have seen another shooter. She claims to have "counted" more than 8 shots, thus "proving" there was more than one shooter. Let's go back to that pantry. Crowded. The Kennedy party pushing to get through. Suddenly, shots ring out. And this lady's first instinct is TO START COUNTING . "one. . . .two. . . .threefourfive. . . .sixseven. . .eight. . . .nineteneleven. . ..twelve (and maybe thirteen and fourteen." But while she's carefully toting up the number of shots fired (and the direction from which they're coming) she somehow doesn't notice who's doing the shooting. Let's just say I'm skeptical. Is she lying? That's a possibility. But I doubt it. Is she miskaken? Almost certainly. Remember, in Dealey Plaza, with dozens of witnesses, the consensus was three shots. Although some folks (carefully reported by conspiracists) heard more. But the vast majority heard three.

As the private detective says in "Pyshco,": "if it don't gel it ain't aspic." Well, this doesn't gel in my mind. She's got presence of mind enough to "know" that there were 12 to `14 shots but somehow overlooks eyeballing the other dude with the gun.

The little matter of Sirhan's confession, guilty plea, and matching the bullets that hit RFK to his gun are mere details. But this little lady was in there. . .counting.
Click to expand...

But that does not make it 1 + 2 + 1 + 1, it makes it 1 + 1 + 2 + 1. :p:D
 
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