Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
Well I figured that goes without saying.
Well I figured that goes without saying.
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Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
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Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
It's merely a matter of definitions. Why do people exercise discipline and self-control? Why do people sometimes refrain from their own immediate self-gratification in order to benefit other people?
If, by definition, it is because of spiritual values, then the result is a tautology: It is what it is because that's what we say it is. To me the concept of a "secular religion" makes a good deal of sense; otherwise how could it be possible that we live in a civil society?
It's merely a matter of definitions. Why do people exercise discipline and self-control? Why do people sometimes refrain from their own immediate self-gratification in order to benefit other people?
If, by definition, it is because of spiritual values, then the result is a tautology: It is what it is because that's what we say it is. To me the concept of a "secular religion" makes a good deal of sense; otherwise how could it be possible that we live in a civil society?
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
Unless one, by definition, says the foundation that underlies "ethical structures" stems from spiritual values or whatever you want to call that act of self-discipline that allows us to cooperate with others by delaying immediate gratification in order to build human relationships with others.
Unless one, by definition, says the foundation that underlies "ethical structures" stems from spiritual values or whatever you want to call that act of self-discipline that allows us to cooperate with others by delaying immediate gratification in order to build human relationships with others.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
Where I come from we don't call that spiritual. We call it "growing up."
Where I come from we don't call that spiritual. We call it "growing up."
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
But that's watering down the definition of religion to such an extent that it removes any concept of supernatural forces. To me, at least, religion implies something non-materialist.
I have found that those who insist that secular humanism is a "religion" are primarily those who are embarrassed that it does not have to rely on the booga booga magical hogwash that actual religions do. They are deliberately eliding the primary characteristic of a religion in order to try to wedge atheism into the definition because they don't have the courage to simply state that supernaturalism is a superior worldview. At least prior ages would defend their superstitions proudly and not try to backdoor them.
But that's watering down the definition of religion to such an extent that it removes any concept of supernatural forces. To me, at least, religion implies something non-materialist.
I have found that those who insist that secular humanism is a "religion" are primarily those who are embarrassed that it does not have to rely on the booga booga magical hogwash that actual religions do. They are deliberately eliding the primary characteristic of a religion in order to try to wedge atheism into the definition because they don't have the courage to simply state that supernaturalism is a superior worldview. At least prior ages would defend their superstitions proudly and not try to backdoor them.
unofan
Well-known member
By that definition, religion and the condition of being religious becomes meaningless as it encompasses literally everyone.
leswp1
Well-known member
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
This. Saved me typing. Sounds like humans trying to make rules so they can pretend to be in control. IMHO Jesus would be shaking his head in disgust that we didn't get what he said over and over in Matthew- rules are stupid if they obsess on the minutia and miss the point. ANd how can stuff get corrupted? why is wheat cleaner than any other grain?
Well, that sets you up for failure because by definition Jesus died for our sins because we are incapable of living without sinning. I thought the belief was humans are imperfect and can't help sinning so if you promise not to do that aren't you lying?
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
Well, resolving to sin no more is not the same as promising to sin no more. If when you resolve you really mean it: you fully intend to lead a blameless life, then that's the best a human being can do.
Well, resolving to sin no more is not the same as promising to sin no more. If when you resolve you really mean it: you fully intend to lead a blameless life, then that's the best a human being can do.
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
I've found the best way to survive with my soul intact is to be flexible in the definition of "sin."
I've found the best way to survive with my soul intact is to be flexible in the definition of "sin."
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
This is the common sociological explanation of religion. Early man, fresh from the treetops, is alone in a lethal, uncaring cosmos. Much of what will determine his survival, let alone flourishing, is completely beyond his control. Early "science-like" experiments aren't very encouraging. Keeping halfway decent records turns up patterns in the seasons and the stars, but they are punctuated by horrific disasters from floods to eruptions to earthquakes to famines to infestations to the as-sholes over the next hill attacking, which have no pattern at all. What's a curious and imaginative but by now pretty darn worried proto-human to do?
Create a process where you do have control over these events. Say the right words, make the right sacrifices, think the right thoughts and you're safe. Even better, an infallible process, because if bad things happen it only means the priest f-cked up, kill him and do it right this time.
Enter religion.
This is the common sociological explanation of religion. Early man, fresh from the treetops, is alone in a lethal, uncaring cosmos. Much of what will determine his survival, let alone flourishing, is completely beyond his control. Early "science-like" experiments aren't very encouraging. Keeping halfway decent records turns up patterns in the seasons and the stars, but they are punctuated by horrific disasters from floods to eruptions to earthquakes to famines to infestations to the as-sholes over the next hill attacking, which have no pattern at all. What's a curious and imaginative but by now pretty darn worried proto-human to do?
Create a process where you do have control over these events. Say the right words, make the right sacrifices, think the right thoughts and you're safe. Even better, an infallible process, because if bad things happen it only means the priest f-cked up, kill him and do it right this time.
Enter religion.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
The televangelist solution. Very nice.
You can always claim to be gathering research.
The televangelist solution. Very nice.
You can always claim to be gathering research.
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
Interesting read
https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/leithart/2015/05/machen-and-the-monkeys
Interesting read
https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/leithart/2015/05/machen-and-the-monkeys
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
That is a good piece.
Frankly, I would have preferred that to have been the central Prosecution argument, since unconsciously that is the battle that has been going on for the last 150 years: there are those who believe mankind is responsible for all of its history, good and bad, and those who hold mankind responsible for the bad while ascribing the good to supernatural forces. That allows them to demand that mankind worship those forces and, incidentally, themselves as the gatekeepers of those forces.
That's the real argument, and I'd be happy to be in the lists. In OTL the religious view was set back centuries by Bryan's idiotic literalism and we will wait centuries for the religious side to catch up with Machen and make a decent argument. An argument that is faulty, but that would at least be interesting to refute.
And an argument, by the way, which might finally help religious people recognize that far from being alien concepts to atheists, the values of tolerance and respect for life are in fact our cornerstones, which we have fought hard -- and often against religious authorities -- to protect.
That is a good piece.
Frankly, I would have preferred that to have been the central Prosecution argument, since unconsciously that is the battle that has been going on for the last 150 years: there are those who believe mankind is responsible for all of its history, good and bad, and those who hold mankind responsible for the bad while ascribing the good to supernatural forces. That allows them to demand that mankind worship those forces and, incidentally, themselves as the gatekeepers of those forces.
That's the real argument, and I'd be happy to be in the lists. In OTL the religious view was set back centuries by Bryan's idiotic literalism and we will wait centuries for the religious side to catch up with Machen and make a decent argument. An argument that is faulty, but that would at least be interesting to refute.
And an argument, by the way, which might finally help religious people recognize that far from being alien concepts to atheists, the values of tolerance and respect for life are in fact our cornerstones, which we have fought hard -- and often against religious authorities -- to protect.
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leswp1
Well-known member
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
But if you buy in to the deal that you can't help sinning (which they teach) then you resolving that means you aren't willing to believe the teaching. (If that makes sense0
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
The doctrine of Total Depravity is lazy and stupid. Augustine was overcompensating when he thunk it up and Calvin was playing out his personal neurosis when he wrote it down.
Any faith based on it is morally and intellectually bankrupt. Jesus would have scoffed at it as just another con by just another grasping guild of Pharisees.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is lazy and stupid. Augustine was overcompensating when he thunk it up and Calvin was playing out his personal neurosis when he wrote it down.
Any faith based on it is morally and intellectually bankrupt. Jesus would have scoffed at it as just another con by just another grasping guild of Pharisees.
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leswp1
Well-known member
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
true but that is what is taught so how can you believe the Doctrine that you will always be in sin yet promise not to be. Basically requires you to promise something that they have told you is impossible
true but that is what is taught so how can you believe the Doctrine that you will always be in sin yet promise not to be. Basically requires you to promise something that they have told you is impossible
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
I don't think the promise is to never sin. It's to will never to sin (and, of course, to mean it). I am only in control of my will, not everything that happens to me down to the biological / subconscious level. But of course the scope of "sin" is so ridiculous that it is impossible for a human being not to sin. It's either a deliberate mug's game -- God is a malicious prankster toying with us -- or else She just has no idea of what Man is. Unsurprising, considering the only one of us She has appeared as was perfect and thus a really lousy attempt to be a man.
The religion is declaring any widget "faulty" that is not milled to perfection, but the tolerance of the milling machine is imperfect.
The problem isn't Man. It's the ruler.
I don't think the promise is to never sin. It's to will never to sin (and, of course, to mean it). I am only in control of my will, not everything that happens to me down to the biological / subconscious level. But of course the scope of "sin" is so ridiculous that it is impossible for a human being not to sin. It's either a deliberate mug's game -- God is a malicious prankster toying with us -- or else She just has no idea of what Man is. Unsurprising, considering the only one of us She has appeared as was perfect and thus a really lousy attempt to be a man.
The religion is declaring any widget "faulty" that is not milled to perfection, but the tolerance of the milling machine is imperfect.
The problem isn't Man. It's the ruler.
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leswp1
Well-known member
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
Just read the thing about Doctrine and the wheat/gluten. Interesting to read the reasoning but not being a Catholic and not having been raised one- My logic prof would have had a field day. Serious leap of [something] to insist the bread was wheat and needs to stay wheat. The fact that it excludes people from having the bread may satisfy the 'Church' but I can't see Jesus buying into it.
Just read the thing about Doctrine and the wheat/gluten. Interesting to read the reasoning but not being a Catholic and not having been raised one- My logic prof would have had a field day. Serious leap of [something] to insist the bread was wheat and needs to stay wheat. The fact that it excludes people from having the bread may satisfy the 'Church' but I can't see Jesus buying into it.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
Joe, I'll certainly give you this. Your Church history is very good. Was it a multi-year class in the old days? We had one year of "Catholic Morality", in 11th grade, where we had to write an essay defending one Catholic moral position. Fr. Straz failed all but 3 of us on the first pass. And he still C-minused me because I argued against abortion from a non-religious position.
Everyone else got dinged for not citing sources.
12th was Church History. They randomly selected instructors by seat availability, which meant I had Dec. Kessler (Zee Gerrmann - with accent!) in the fall, and Mr. Rice (a grandfatherly old crank) in the winter.
I liked Rice more.
Joe, I'll certainly give you this. Your Church history is very good. Was it a multi-year class in the old days? We had one year of "Catholic Morality", in 11th grade, where we had to write an essay defending one Catholic moral position. Fr. Straz failed all but 3 of us on the first pass. And he still C-minused me because I argued against abortion from a non-religious position.
Everyone else got dinged for not citing sources. 12th was Church History. They randomly selected instructors by seat availability, which meant I had Dec. Kessler (Zee Gerrmann - with accent!) in the fall, and Mr. Rice (a grandfatherly old crank) in the winter.
I liked Rice more.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...
Revealed Truth trumps logic, anyway. That's always the out if the Church paints itself into a corner.
Revealed Truth trumps logic, anyway. That's always the out if the Church paints itself into a corner.
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