Reforming College Hockey

[jcarter7669]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Why do I keep reading this

It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. It's horrific but you just can't take your eyes off it.

 

[WildKitty]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Beyond pride of alma mater, how about pride of nation? Isn't there a limit to how many American kids can play on a Canadian Junior's team?

The thing with the former assistant coach is neat. I'd be interested in following the trends if a) it was my school and b) I did any kind of persistent research. Perhaps a thread with eyes on that guy and his players/recruits would be in order?

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

We also continue to bring valid counter points which you only selectively argue against. Bring proof and respond to all of them if you want to have a chance convincing anyone.

I think you need to get out of the sky is falling la la land you are currently in and join the rest of us in reality.

I only argue about some points made by responders because some points they make are good ones eg. the difference in farm team structure, TV market share, and socio-economic backgrounds between hockey and other sports. I refuse to respond to ad hominem posts, of which there are several. I will not carry water for the uninformed - if you want to learn about the relationships between college academics and college athletics, which include hockey, you can read the research for yourself. There's a lot of it and I'm under no obligation to reproduce the text for those who deny any problem exists or will ever exist between college hockey programs and college academic programs.
When I specified sources several posters without the curiosity or the courage to check the sources [less than a minute's work] immediately belittled the author and the sources. What chance is there such people in denial, as I see them, would actually read and consider the text of this research if I took the time and the trouble to reproduce it and deliver it to them?

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

There's a lot of it and I'm under no obligation to reproduce the text for those who deny any problem exists or will ever exist between college hockey programs and college academic programs.

There is an 84% graduation rate? Where is the problem, that's higher then non-athletic??? What is your problem? It's not as if a decade ago it was 95% and the decade before that it was 100%. Then you may have a legitimate point.

When I specified sources several posters without the curiosity or the courage to check the sources [less than a minute's work] immediately belittled the author and the sources. What chance is there such people in denial, as I see them, would actually read and consider the text of this research if I took the time and the trouble to reproduce it and deliver it to them?

Any several posters have specified sources that you didn't look at either. You specifiy one guy but won't give any other details. You have no statistical that supports your point, you do throw out an occasional football or basketball stat, but then in the next post tell everyone this is a college hockey forum.

And you rarely respond to anyone.

How about responding to said 84% graduation rate, and the fact if you stretch it out to 10 years instead of 6 that rate goes up to 90%.

How about responding to the fact that the NCAA has a minimum graduation rate to be eligible to participate in the tournament.

Why not point out college programs whose HOCKEY graduation rates show a steady decline?


You appear to be disgruntled with college hockey and create a profile simply to come attack college hockey. Hang on the phones ringing......It's your rock, it wants you crawl back under it.

 

[WildKitty]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

You are here presenting a radical shift... the burden of proof is on you.

His work is his intellectual property. Even if it weren't I would not take the time to duplicate and post his findings for the "What, me worry?" crowd, for they likely would not bother to read it and risk disturbing their convictions.

We've bothered to read all the other drivel you've posted. Back it up.

 

[ts8801]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I only argue about some points made by responders because some points they make are good ones eg. the difference in farm team structure, TV market share, and socio-economic backgrounds between hockey and other sports. I refuse to respond to ad hominem posts, of which there are several. I will not carry water for the uninformed - if you want to learn about the relationships between college academics and college athletics, which include hockey, you can read the research for yourself. There's a lot of it and I'm under no obligation to reproduce the text for those who deny any problem exists or will ever exist between college hockey programs and college academic programs.
When I specified sources several posters without the curiosity or the courage to check the sources [less than a minute's work] immediately belittled the author and the sources. What chance is there such people in denial, as I see them, would actually read and consider the text of this research if I took the time and the trouble to reproduce it and deliver it to them?

ok what is ad hominem about:
1. the belief that some college is better than no college.
2. A majority of the athletic dept budget is from boosters and the profit from the athletic dept.
3. And finally any money the school does give, is paying for the benefit the athletic departments give in forms of recruiting and helping the image of the university etc

 

[WildKitty]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I refuse to respond to ad hominem posts, of which there are several.

"An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument." http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

YOU put up the claim/argument/proposition. WE asked for specifics. YOU provided dubious, over-generalized, and irrelevant statistics. WE asked for better specifics, particularly from the ONE book to which you continue to refer. YOU refuse, giving more dubious and irrelevant excuses.

Why put up a proposition if you aren't going to seriously back up your opinion?

But I forget. You think we're all attacking YOU, not your proposition. Hence the "ad hominem" posts you refer to.

I call major BS.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

We've bothered to read all the other drivel you've posted. Back it up.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/30980634.html?elr.KArksi8cyaiUjc


[GSR = six year graduation success rate, including transfers]

2007 GSR for all University of Minnesota students: 71%
2007 GSR for all University of Minnesota student athletes: 79%
2007 GSR for University of Minnesota Men's hockey players: 43%

No problem? Drivel? La-la land?

I apologize to Gopher fans for singling them out, but posters in denial insisted on specifics, and I had to choose some school. Instead of directing your anger at me consider going after the apologists who will inevitably maintain that Minnesota is a single, isolated case or one of very few such cases, and then proclaim only a tiny minority of Division I men's hockey programs have GSR problems.
Will I provide more such examples and infuriate even more fans? Nah. Do your own homework or don't, which would enable you to continue to enjoy your prejudices undisturbed.

 

[NMU8405]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/30980634.html?elr.KArksi8cyaiUjc


[GSR = six year graduation success rate, including transfers]

2007 GSR for all University of Minnesota students: 71%
2007 GSR for all University of Minnesota student athletes: 79%
2007 GSR for University of Minnesota Men's hockey players: 43%

No problem? Drivel? La-la land?

I apologize to Gopher fans for singling them out, but posters in denial insisted on specifics, and I had to choose some school. Instead of directing your anger at me consider going after the apologists who will inevitably maintain that Minnesota is a single, isolated case or one of very few such cases, and then proclaim only a tiny minority of Division I men's hockey programs have GSR problems.
Will I provide more such examples and infuriate even more fans? Nah. Do your own homework or don't, which would enable you to continue to enjoy your prejudices undisturbed.

One school doesnt justify what you are proposing. Minnesota obviously draws the top talent much like Syracuse, Duke, UNC does for basketball, and likewise as the top programs in football like Texas and Florida. Across the board, successful rates of graduation are high in college hockey.

Also, I dont know if this is taken into account, I know a few players who turned pro from NMU in my tenure here have come back and completed their successful graduation over the summer. So yes, they turned pro and left early but also received their degrees.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I keep coming in here trying to find the basis for the whole thread and it seems like it is one person with an opinion that is not swayed by any factual evidence or logic, who won't answer any serious inquiries regarding his opinion and a bunch of other people countering his lame argument that has no basis with a bunch of factual evidence. Why do I keep reading this

It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. It's horrific but you just can't take your eyes off it.

Yep.
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[NMU8405]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Yep.
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Well that didnt look too bad...

Oh ****. Slow mo.

 

[WildKitty]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Gophers athletes aren't graduating much, thank you for the article. However, I see that Gophers hockey players were getting the job done, improving from 43 to 50%. Still not stellar, but it's an improvement. Is this an example of how college hockey is going down the tubes?

Gophers men's hockey (43 to 50 percent) and football (49 to 51 percent) improved from last year

 

[Patman]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Exactly. Osorojo's proposal would decimate fan interest in the games. Then again, maybe that's not so bad in his opinion - if fans don't show, then these new semi-pro teams wouldn't pay very well, so the top prospects wouldn't come, so those who do would end up having to stay for 4 years.

The is the ultimate failure of the idea... assuming they start anchored to the schools (good luck with that) they will quickly see a reason to de-anchor from the schools. Worse, the schools would probably have to outlay funds for such an affiliation and the schools would only have a limited sense of ownership... and therefore the student body would react accordingly.

Honestly, why would a junior team base themselves in Houghton or Potsdam or Canton or some of these other cities.

 

[WildKitty]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Just read the last page of that article!!!

NCAA President Myles Brand said he's happy with the national improvement. The national GSR average went up one point from last year. "We still have work to do and can't declare victory just yet, but the trend lines are moving in the right direction," Brand said on NCAA.org. "The ultimate success is in the changed lives of student-athletes. The so-called 'dumb jock' myth is just that -- a myth."

I will admit one point isn't much to be proud of, but apparently, the NCAA is unconcerned overall. I'd like to find that Federal release the article refers to.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/30980634.html?elr.KArksi8cyaiUjc


[GSR = six year graduation success rate, including transfers]

2007 GSR for all University of Minnesota students: 71%
2007 GSR for all University of Minnesota student athletes: 79%
2007 GSR for University of Minnesota Men's hockey players: 43%

No problem? Drivel? La-la land?

I apologize to Gopher fans for singling them out, but posters in denial insisted on specifics, and I had to choose some school. Instead of directing your anger at me consider going after the apologists who will inevitably maintain that Minnesota is a single, isolated case or one of very few such cases, and then proclaim only a tiny minority of Division I men's hockey programs have GSR problems.

Doesn't this actually work against your argument? The NCAA men's hockey as a whole has an 84% graduation rate, with the gophers at 43% that would indicate that the NCAA as a whole has an even higher % then 84, as those **** Gophers are dragging it down??

You argument seems to be if one school is bad then everyother school is going that way and so before they do let's just get rid of the whole NCAA hockey entity.

EVERYONE else sees one bad apple and no reasons to over react.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Doesn't this actually work against your argument? The NCAA men's hockey as a whole has an 84% graduation rate, with the gophers at 43% that would indicate that the NCAA as a whole has an even higher % then 84, as those **** Gophers are dragging it down??

You argument seems to be if one school is bad then everyother school is going that way and so before they do let's just get rid of the whole NCAA hockey entity.

EVERYONE else sees one bad apple and no reasons to over react.

Exactly. Sounds like Minny has a problem; NCAA D-1 college hockey does not.

 

[BUPhD]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Minny should totally start a Major Junior team associated with the college. That'd solve everything.

 

[johnnypohlfan]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Doesn't this actually work against your argument? The NCAA men's hockey as a whole has an 84% graduation rate, with the gophers at 43% that would indicate that the NCAA as a whole has an even higher % then 84, as those **** Gophers are dragging it down??

You argument seems to be if one school is bad then everyother school is going that way and so before they do let's just get rid of the whole NCAA hockey entity.

EVERYONE else sees one bad apple and no reasons to over react.

Not to mention the fact that he went back and chose the lowest number he could find, ignoring the fact that grad rates for MN hockey has gone up significantly since the year he hand-picked to "prove" his point.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Not to mention the fact that he went back and chose the lowest number he could find, ignoring the fact that grad rates for MN hockey has gone up significantly since the year he hand-picked to "prove" his point.

"Ad hominem" (name calling) and now "attacking a straw man" (putting words in someone's mouth) have been used to dismiss any concern about the relationship between academics and division I hockey. I never so much as suggested that every, or even most college hockey programs have academic problems. Those words were put in my mouth by someone else. The Minnesota example was only to educate those who insist there is no reason at all for concern about academics and division I hockey programs.Of course I picked a school which has a regrettable DSR to justify my concern. What in blazes did you expect?

As I predicted, those in denial are claiming perhaps Minnesota alone, perhaps one or two other (evil) hockey programs are dragging down the entire sport.
Wink if you suspect more than a few other hockey programs are involved in academic or financial or admissions shennanigans.
By the way, the NCAA restriction for athletic teams (including hockey) to compete in post-season playoffs is a 50% or higher graduation rate. Any college is harshly criticized if its general student population has a graduation rate anywhere near as low as 50%. This reinforces my concern about low academic expectations of college hockey players, even if the NCAA and hockey fans are satisfied with a 50% graduation rate.

Here's a new bone to chew on. Instead of a combined Junior/college hockey program, how about we simply change the label of the program to a more accurate descriptor? We change the name of college hockey programs with
DSR's significantly and chronically lower than that of the general student population to "College Hooky Programs."

I assume many will take this proposal at face value and miss or deny the point again.

 

[MUhawks628]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

RedHawk Athletes Graduating at 82-Percent Rate, One Percent Higher than MU's Student Body.

No problems in Oxford!! Oh wait...