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Reforming College Hockey

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Good idea. It seems posters to this site have already voted out of existence the possibility that college hockey could face or succumb to the same temptations other Division I college sports programs have succumbed to.
Is it a possibility? Sure. Is it so likely and so imminent that it's worth uprooting the current system just to preclude any chance that it could occur? Not even close.

You have a fantastic solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and doesn't look likely to exist within the next 20 years. Do you also have a solution to preventing college hockey players from growing second heads, which would therefore double the number of concussions experienced playing hockey?
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

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Re: Reforming College Hockey

Others have talked about the feeling of ownership and connection they have with the team, because the players are THEM: students, so I won't go into it, although the point is valid.

Financially, you're kinda right. Most colleges won't reallocate athletic funds to academics, though. In reality, by making college hockey kinda-pro, you give colleges an excuse they don't need to throw more money at the big sports you condemn. Aside from that, the good college hockey schools value the college part as much as the hockey part.

Here's what I have the most trouble with:

Olympics: send your best athletes, we'll send ours, and we'll see who has the best athletes.

College: EITHER You aren't quite ready for the big leagues, so stew a little in an academic institution with a good program and polish a little
OR You (and/or your family) value education and realize that a very small percentage of the population make a lifetime's worth of money by playing hockey, so you come for a degree and a plan while picking up more experience in a game you love.

Yeah, there's lots of reasons why Olympic Hockey went pro. First and foremost: college athletes are not usually the best hockey players in the country.

Reason to replace college hockey with JRs=none. We aren't looking to get the best players in the country to compete for national pride. Juniors players who need polishing before pros go to college anyway. Juniors who don't need polishing (or an education) go right up. College gives non-Juniors players a chance at some limelight. College is a key developmental phase for a LOT of players looking to go pro. College broadens the pool for the NHL.

The Juniors can take care of themselves - they don't need any help getting games or fans. College hockey... well, the NCAA has lots to fix, as does each institution with a sanctioned team. But college hockey is still important, AS IT IS, and messing with it by essentially eliminating it, is not the answer.
 
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Re: Reforming College Hockey

There is another factor that is far different in hockey than in basketball and football. For the top level of competition – the NBA and the NFL – the colleges are the minor leagues. The NFL draft is going on now. How many of the drafted players did not go to college? So the colleges get pretty much all the aspiring football players – the “All-American” Pete Dawkins, Whizzer Whites, and Myron Rolles, as well as the borderline criminals and people with elementary school reading levels. College basketball gets the Bill Bradleys and the David Robinsons as well as the OJ Mayos.

Baseball has minor leagues, but most of the minor league teams are under control of the MLB teams.

Hockey isn’t like that. If you have hockey ability and you don’t want to go to college, you don’t have to. The colleges don’t dominate the NHL drafts.

Sure you have the possibility that college hockey will go the way of college football and college hockey. When college hockey signs a contract with ESPN or CBS for hundreds of millions – or billions – of dollars rather than having to rely on the coattails of other sports to get their national tournament televised, I’ll worry a lot more.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

You are an intelligent guy who writes well, but you really seem to be angered about a problem that doesn't really exist. College Hockey does NOT have serious academic issues like football or basketball does. It just doesn't. Our players graduate at a terrific rate of about 80% - a rate above the all-student rates at NCAA schools. The very few players that do leave early for the pros often come back and finish their degrees. Our players are almost universally articulate, productive and can handle college level work. If you are really concerned about academic integrity, you should focus on other sports where the need is far more acute, and the athletes can't do college work.

Yeah I am going to have to agree with you as well.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Division I college hockey programs should follow the successful reorganization of Olympic hockey as it turned from amateur to professional. It's easy: just replace the name of the country with the name of the school.

Junior hockey programs are numerous, the players are talented, and Junior Hockey wishes to attract more paying fans. College hockey programs have large numbers of devoted fans and hockey rinks. Simply rename Junior Hockey teams with the names of the colleges the Junior teams agree to represent! The players could live near campus and practice and play in the college's rink. The players could dress up in the college's uniforms and play many more games a year than a college team burdened by academic expectations.

The college would be spared the costs of coaches and trainers, conserve classroom space and professors' time, and avoid the embarrassing need to suspend academic and admission standards. College funds previously used for athletic scholarships could be used for academic scholarships instead. The renamed Junior teams would attract fans from both town and gown. This larger fan base and larger game schedule would result in greater profits, which the Junior hockey program could split with the colleges. The quality of "college" hockey would improve, the popularity of hockey would grow, revenue would increase, and abuse of academic standards would decrease. What more could college hockey fans desire?
Your idea is incoherent and makes no sense what so ever. There is no problem with college hockey at least from the angle that you're talking about.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

I read your cautionary tale, but I am not worried as you are. Yes, investments in college hockey have increased in recent years, teams play before larger crowds and TV cameras, and there is an increasing sense that college hockey is becoming more of "big-time" sport. That's progress in my book. You see "big time" and assume that our sport is headed for the same moral bankruptcy and lack of academic success that plague college football and basketball, but the fundamental underpinnings are totally different.

The reason is socio-economic, and yes, race plays a big role. Despite the best efforts of the NHL to promote diversity and say "Hockey is for Everyone" hockey is still not popular in places where money is in short supply, or where education is not valued.

Academics have taken a backseat in football and basketball because there are huge talent pools of incredibly talented athletes who come from poorly educated, economically disadvantged backgrounds where education is either lousy or not valued by families (or both), resulting in ill-prepared and un-academically motivated athletes. Football and basketball coaches are pressured to win now, and with the large pools of these talented, undereducated athletes available to them, it's no wonder that you have the poor graduation rates and players not prepared for academic work.

Hockey is different. Hockey draws it's athletes from a wholly different socio-economic base. The fundamental economic basis of North American hockey players has shifted from a game played by the undereducated farmers and miners 60 years ago to a high-cost, highly structured, mostly suburban game played with upscale expectations. Most hockey players now come primarily from middle to upper income backgrounds where education is important and valued.

Sure, there are economic pressures on some players to turn pro, but for most of them, it's not a matter of providing for basics their families as it is the opportunity to take advantage of an economic doorway to lifetime financial security, and sometimes for testy hockey parents to see a return on their own extensive investment of resources (money, time and effort) into developing not-so-little Johnny's hockey career.

Sure there is some economic pressure on D-I hockey programs to win. But unlike football and basketball, there is no large secondary population of talented hockey players who can't do college work to enroll and never graduate. Those few hockey players who can't handle college work play Major Junior, and even in Major juniors, probably 75% of the players could do college work if they felt like it.

Someday, if hockey really becomes popular among people with limited financial means, you might start to have some issues, but for now, hockey is a sport played mostly by educated players and families who already have money, and as such, is in little danger of academic failure.

Swami, I agree with everything you wrote, except for that part about undereducated farmers and miners.

Canadian farmers and miners (even 60 years ago) were well-educated. I assume you were referring to farmers and miners from Minnesota! :rolleyes: :D :p
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

There is another factor that is far different in hockey than in basketball and football. For the top level of competition – the NBA and the NFL – the colleges are the minor leagues. The NFL draft is going on now. How many of the drafted players did not go to college? So the colleges get pretty much all the aspiring football players – the “All-American” Pete Dawkins, Whizzer Whites, and Myron Rolles, as well as the borderline criminals and people with elementary school reading levels. College basketball gets the Bill Bradleys and the David Robinsons as well as the OJ Mayos.

Baseball has minor leagues, but most of the minor league teams are under control of the MLB teams.

Hockey isn’t like that. If you have hockey ability and you don’t want to go to college, you don’t have to. The colleges don’t dominate the NHL drafts.

Sure you have the possibility that college hockey will go the way of college football and college hockey. When college hockey signs a contract with ESPN or CBS for hundreds of millions – or billions – of dollars rather than having to rely on the coattails of other sports to get their national tournament televised, I’ll worry a lot more.

Thank you for a thoughtful and focused response, and also the comments of "Wildkitty." I agree with your logic but reject your assumptions. For example: In the last decade there has been a steady increase in the number of collegiate hockey players drafted by and signing with professional hockey teams. Among some Division I programs there has been a significant decrease in the number of hockey recruits who have failed to earn a diploma.

These trends do not support the assumption that collegiate hockey programs have little to fear from the chronic abuses concealed, then revealed, in other Division I college sports programs. For those who dismiss the growing trends in college hockey as inconsequential please consider: "Remember that the mighty oak was once a nut like you."
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Thank you for a thoughtful and focused response, and also the comments of "Wildkitty." I agree with your logic but reject your assumptions. For example: In the last decade there has been a steady increase in the number of collegiate hockey players drafted by and signing with professional hockey teams. Among some Division I programs there has been a significant decrease in the number of hockey recruits who have failed to earn a diploma.
Is that what you meant to say? I assume you meant the opposite

These trends do not support the assumption that collegiate hockey programs have little to fear from the chronic abuses concealed, then revealed, in other Division I college sports programs. For those who dismiss the growing trends in college hockey as inconsequential please consider: "Remember that the mighty oak was once a nut like you."
Nor do they necessarily support the assumption that college hockey is going the way of college basketball and football. To me it's actually a compliment to college hockey because it means that college hockey is attracting better players.

There was a time that the source of NHL players was almost exclusively Canadian Juniors. Any Americans who were in the NHL had gone to Canada to play Canadian Juniors. Even the Canadian kids who played college hockey weren't good enough for the NHL. But now playing hockey for a US college is seen by talented hockey players who want to attend college as an attractive path that might lead to the NHL, and certainly could get you an education that you might not have been able to obtain otherwise and permit you to have experiences that kids who are taking bus rides all over Canada and playing 80 games a year aren't going to get.

I'm not so naive as to believe that all college hockey players are great students and I think that the situation bears watching. But just being aware of the situation and watching it is far different than the proposed drastic solution in your base note. To use your "nut" cliche, you're proposing cutting down the forest because of five bad trees.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Swami, I agree with everything you wrote, except for that part about undereducated farmers and miners.

Canadian farmers and miners (even 60 years ago) were well-educated. I assume you were referring to farmers and miners from Minnesota! :rolleyes: :D :p

The state of hockey's farmers and miners is all that matters.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Division I college hockey programs should follow the successful reorganization of Olympic hockey as it turned from amateur to professional. It's easy: just replace the name of the country with the name of the school.

Junior hockey progams are numerous, the players are talented, and Junior Hockey wishes to attract more paying fans. College hockey programs have large numbers of devoted fans and hockey rinks. Simply rename Junior Hockey teams with the names of the colleges the Junior teams agree to represent! The players could live near campus and practice and play in the college's rink. The players could dress up in the college's uniforms and play many more games a year than a college team burdened by academic expectations.

The college would be spared the costs of coaches and trainers, conserve classroom space and professors' time, and avoid the embarrassing need to suspend academic and admission standards. College funds previously used for athletic scholarships could be used for academic scholarships instead. The renamed Junior teams would attract fans from both town and gown. This larger fan base and larger game schedule would result in greater profits, which the Junior hockey program could split with the colleges. The quality of "college" hockey would improve, the popularity of hockey would grow, revenue would increase, and abuse of academic standards would decrease. What more could college hockey fans desire?

This has to be the most idiotic idea ever conceived about college hockey. Bravo!
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Good idea. It seems posters to this site have already voted out of existence the possibility that college hockey could face or succumb to the same temptations other Division I college sports programs have succumbed to.

What -- Walmart was having a sale on straw men?
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

It seems posters to this site have already voted out of existence the possibility that college hockey could face or succumb to the same temptations other Division I college sports programs have succumbed to.

Name three.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Name three.

Only three?
Florida State football - 2009
Memphis basketball - 2009
Alabama football, tennis, track and field - 2009
Southern Indiana basketball - 2009
- and so on and so on, many more than three. Numerous HIGH SCHOOL teams have been sanctioned and have forfeited games. Now, what's all this stuff about college hockey has nothing to beware of, or should we continue to pretend hockey is the sole incorruptable sport?

I was surprised at how many took my proposal of a Junior-college hockey union at face value, and at how overwrought they became. Their credulous reaction and anger indicates they fear such an event might actually take place; otherwise they would have smiled and gone on their way.
I'm getting on thin ice here, but I suspect the attackers of this modest proposal reacted as they did because they recognize the truth of several of the facts supporting this facetious conclusion, and that makes them grumpy .
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Only three?
Florida State football - 2009
Memphis basketball - 2009
Alabama football, tennis, track and field - 2009
Southern Indiana basketball - 2009
- and so on and so on, many more than three. Numerous HIGH SCHOOL teams have been sanctioned and have forfeited games. Now, what's all this stuff about college hockey has nothing to beware of, or should we continue to pretend hockey is the sole incorruptable sport?

I was surprised at how many took my proposal of a Junior-college hockey union at face value, and at how overwrought they became. Their credulous reaction and anger indicates they fear such an event might actually take place; otherwise they would have smiled and gone on their way.
I'm getting on thin ice here, but I suspect the attackers of this modest proposal reacted as they did because they recognize the truth of several of the facts supporting this facetious conclusion, and that makes them grumpy .

It isn't because you've achieved some advance sense of nuance and insight... your idea is just wrong. Your solution isn't modest either... it rattles at the fundamentals of college athletics and disturbs something that shows no evidence of being disturbed.

BTW, you can point to the same issues in the 1980s and 1990s. The problem here is that your solution is to a problem that doesn't exist... but since it seems like a slick solution you are in love with it. Hell, some of us have pointed out why your idea doesn't work.

Explain to me why the current situation is actually a problem. Your solution is more wishful thinking more than anything else.

Patman said:
Here's the obvious problem... what is to stop the teams from associating with the school? What is to stop them from associating with bigger schools? Why would they associate with the schools and not Bill's Tavern?

As soon as you answer some of these then maybe I'll take you seriously.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Only three?
Florida State football - 2009
Memphis basketball - 2009
Alabama football, tennis, track and field - 2009
Southern Indiana basketball - 2009
- and so on and so on, many more than three. Numerous HIGH SCHOOL teams have been sanctioned and have forfeited games. Now, what's all this stuff about college hockey has nothing to beware of, or should we continue to pretend hockey is the sole incorruptable sport?

No. Name three posters who "have already voted out of existence the possibility that college hockey could face or succumb to the same temptations other Division I college sports programs have succumbed to."
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

It isn't because you've achieved some advance sense of nuance and insight... your idea is just wrong. Your solution isn't modest either... it rattles at the fundamentals of college athletics and disturbs something that shows no evidence of being disturbed.

BTW, you can point to the same issues in the 1980s and 1990s. The problem here is that your solution is to a problem that doesn't exist... but since it seems like a slick solution you are in love with it. Hell, some of us have pointed out why your idea doesn't work.

Explain to me why the current situation is actually a problem. Your solution is more wishful thinking more than anything else.



As soon as you answer some of these then maybe I'll take you seriously.

This is a forum about college hockey, not you or me. The issue here is to seriously consider actual events and trends in college hockey, and by extension, in college sports in general. I have seen no credible evidence that college hockey is exempt from the abuses found in other college sports programs. I am seriously concerned that there are increasing economic incentives for college hockey programs to corrupt recruiting and academic standards.

You are unconcerned and deny a growing possibility of mischief in college hockey programs. I hope you're right, but I fear you are not.

If you don't take seriously my proposal for combining Junior and college hockey you are starting to catch on.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Division I college hockey programs should follow the successful reorganization of Olympic hockey as it turned from amateur to professional. It's easy: just replace the name of the country with the name of the school.

Junior hockey progams are numerous, the players are talented, and Junior Hockey wishes to attract more paying fans. College hockey programs have large numbers of devoted fans and hockey rinks. Simply rename Junior Hockey teams with the names of the colleges the Junior teams agree to represent! The players could live near campus and practice and play in the college's rink. The players could dress up in the college's uniforms and play many more games a year than a college team burdened by academic expectations.

The college would be spared the costs of coaches and trainers, conserve classroom space and professors' time, and avoid the embarrassing need to suspend academic and admission standards. College funds previously used for athletic scholarships could be used for academic scholarships instead. The renamed Junior teams would attract fans from both town and gown. This larger fan base and larger game schedule would result in greater profits, which the Junior hockey program could split with the colleges. The quality of "college" hockey would improve, the popularity of hockey would grow, revenue would increase, and abuse of academic standards would decrease. What more could college hockey fans desire?

The future is approaching, and with it comes change. Remember amateur Olympic hockey? The majority of Div. I hockey schools may be doing a stellar job maintaining academic standards AND a hockey program, but there are great and growing economic pressures against doing so.

Division I college football and basketball schools may have once been immune to lowered admission and academic standards encouraged by these teams. Most observers agree this is no longer the case. Some fans take comfort in the argument that hockey is and always will be a minor sport, so Division I hockey schools will remain immune to the abuses regularly uncovered in football/basketball mills masquerading as academically oriented undertakings.

The "Hockey will always be a minor sport" argument seems a somewhat perverse form of wishful thinking when it is used to dismiss the probability that college hockey programs will increrasingly suffer from the same abuses
seen in college football and basketball mills. (eg. 0% graduation rate for seven years from Cincinnati's NCAA-endorsed basketball team)

The suggestion that Junior Hockey players replace amateur student hockey players may sound far-fetched and even a bit satirical, but I suspect it is happening in some schools at this moment, and the trend will grow. You haven't noticed? It wasn't a fish who discovered water.

As in Olympic hockey, "What once were vices now are virtues."

This is a forum about college hockey, not you or me. The issue here is to seriously consider actual events and trends in college hockey, and by extension, in college sports in general. I have seen no credible evidence that college hockey is exempt from the abuses found in other college sports programs. I am seriously concerned that there are increasing economic incentives for college hockey programs to corrupt recruiting and academic standards.

You are unconcerned and deny a growing possibility of mischief in college hockey programs. I hope you're right, but I fear you are not.

If you don't take seriously my proposal for combining Junior and college hockey you are starting to catch on.

Oh great you started another thread where you will selectively argue you ludicrous and near crackhead ideas.

Problem 1: I am a fan of my college hockey team because I have class with them, I have seen them on campus and they represent me and my fellow classmates on the ice. If come crackpot jr team was affiliated with my I would not care to watch.

Problem 2: You keep saying colleges can not support college hockey do to the economy. How many college hockey programs actually lose money on a pure accounting basis? And on an economic basis, college athletics are a huge recruiting tool for many students. For me it was was the tie breaker, along with the smaller class sizes.

Problem 3: this has is more so for you other mindless banter from the pro signing thread. In what way, in what world, is NO COLLEGE better then some.

Problem 4: your attempt at fixing a problem that is in the extreme minority. There are already incentives to have a high grad rate and disincentives to deter cheating and recruiting solely the one and done type players. Customer loyalty programs are abused on a daily basis by a small number of the users. Someone with your logic would eliminate them, missing out on the big picture. Now have the CEO's of the biggest most profitable companies in the world eliminated their customer loyalty programs? No they slightly alter them to fix the problem, THAT"S why they are the CEO and your some guy sitting on a computer spewing this garbage.
 
Re: Reforming College Hockey

Only three?
Florida State football - 2009
Memphis basketball - 2009
Alabama football, tennis, track and field - 2009
Southern Indiana basketball - 2009
- and so on and so on, many more than three. Numerous HIGH SCHOOL teams have been sanctioned and have forfeited games. Now, what's all this stuff about college hockey has nothing to beware of, or should we continue to pretend hockey is the sole incorruptable sport?

Do the Snoozleberries taste just like Snoozleberries in your world??

And Southern Indiana?? hahahaha. You're bringing up a D2 school who's only claim to fame is that Bruce Pearl let them to a D2 Championship before he was the coach at Tennesse.
 
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