Reforming College Hockey

[Patman]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

This is a forum about college hockey, not you or me.

Its your idea we're working on right now. The amorphous subject of "college hockey" is not focused on this in here.

The issue here is to seriously consider actual events and trends in college hockey, and by extension, in college sports in general.

No, what you're doing is taking cases of college sports in general and reversing them in on college hockey. All the animals aren't equal here... what college hockey does is different than basketball or any of the other sports. Corruption of the sport isn't an inevitability.

I have seen no credible evidence that college hockey is exempt from the abuses found in other college sports programs.

They aren't... but they aren't particularly at risk either. We do have examples in hockey (Maine '92, '94) but those that exist are many years in the past now.

I am seriously concerned that there are increasing economic incentives for college hockey programs to corrupt recruiting and academic standards.

But for hockey its very slowly increasing. College hockey still remains and stands to remain very much "off the radar". You are shoehorning problems in other situations onto college hockey... in that you are wrong.

You are unconcerned and deny a growing possibility of mischief in college hockey programs. I hope you're right, but I fear you are not.

Possibility always exists... but even if it exists it doesn't rise to the seriousness that would make your solution even possibly reasonable. Further your solution is unstable... when you are trying to form that kind of partnership it has to make sense to all involved. What you are proposing is tying a Major Junior system to the colleges... but what's to stop them from aligning with other alternatives?

If you don't take seriously my proposal for combining Junior and college hockey you are starting to catch on.

You're right... I am starting to catch on.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

This is a forum about college hockey, not you or me. The issue here is to seriously consider actual events and trends in college hockey, and by extension, in college sports in general. I have seen no credible evidence that college hockey is exempt from the abuses found in other college sports programs. I am seriously concerned that there are increasing economic incentives for college hockey programs to corrupt recruiting and academic standards.

You are unconcerned and deny a growing possibility of mischief in college hockey programs. I hope you're right, but I fear you are not.

If you don't take seriously my proposal for combining Junior and college hockey you are starting to catch on.

When college hockey gets tv ratings higher than reruns of poker, women's basketball, bowling, or the 57th Annual Pinochle Tournament, then we can probably be concerned.

And when the NHL gets higher ratings than those events I mentioned (being that the NHL is the league that college hockey players want to get to, therefore causing the "corruption" in the first place), then we can probably be concerned.

We are only noticing this uptick in people leaving early and such because we follow it hardcore. However, in the big picture? This is nothing. It's beyond nothing. Frankly, I think the main reason you are seeing this uptick is because of the NHL's rookie cap. Why spend another year in college when a team is offering the max?* In the past, you could take that extra year, and maybe be good enough to get a bigger contract. Now? The max is the max. Why take that extra year and possibly get hurt?

*And we're seeing players who shouldn't leave early jump at that contract, only to toil away in the minors. IMO, the "problem" will correct itself, and some players will stay that extra year, to get that clause that keeps them in the NHL, and not the minors forever.

 

[WildKitty]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Something that just occurred to me:

Whatever osorojo's crackbrained idea, and however the colleges may view it, the Juniors would NEVER agree!

Who's that Greek character, with the rock, and the hill?

 

[SteveP]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I have seen no credible evidence that college hockey is exempt from the abuses found in other college sports programs.

And you have presented no credible evidence that even remotely points to any abuses happening in college hockey.

So, to use the vernacular, either put up or shut up!

Who's that Greek character, with the rock, and the hill?

That would be that legendary center ice man Sisyphus.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Only three?
Florida State football - 2009
Memphis basketball - 2009
Alabama football, tennis, track and field - 2009
Southern Indiana basketball - 2009
- .

This is a forum about college hockey,

????

Your arguments may actually be taken seriously if you had some data or something to back them up.
How many students leave for the pro's before earning their degree? How has that changed from the 70's, 80's, 90, 00's? etc.

Until you actually do some research and provide data then your ramblings are just that.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

????

Your arguments may actually be taken seriously if you had some data or something to back them up.
How many students leave for the pro's before earning their degree? How has that changed from the 70's, 80's, 90, 00's? etc.

Until you actually do some research and provide data then your ramblings are just that.

The most recent information about college athletes' graduation rate released by the NCAA concerns the 2002-03 school year. Why is this? More recent NCAA comparisons of the graduation rates of athletes and non-athletes were found to be statistically invalid. Google "NCAA graduation rates" for confirmation.

The staff of USCHO was apparently concerned enough about the potential of college hockey programs eroding academic standards that in 2005 USCHO staff researched and wrote an article about the NCAA proposing one year suspensions of athletic scholarships in colleges graduating less than 50 percent of their athletes. Hockey programs? Maybe not at that time. Concern over the danger to college hockey? You betcha, or why bother with
writing and releasing this article if it doesn't apply to college hockey?

Quick and easy solutions to complex issues are in great demand but short supply, unless you count denial as a solution. If you are as interested in quality education as you are in shots on goal you should check out William G. Bowen's research into the relationship between college athletics and college academics, particularly the data in his books "Reclaiming the Game" and "The Game of Life." Bowen's research findings are an embarrassment to both "elite" schools which do not give athletic scholarships as well as schools that do.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

The most recent information about college athletes' graduation rate released by the NCAA concerns the 2002-03 school year. Why is this? More recent NCAA comparisons of the graduation rates of athletes and non-athletes were found to be statistically invalid. Google "NCAA graduation rates" for confirmation.

.

And so your argument that there is a problem comes from where

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

The NCAA measures Graduation Success Rate (GSR) as the rate of athletes who get their degrees in six years. Six years is similar to the rate of regular students to get their degrees across the country.

In order to measure six year success rates, going back to 2002 is appropriate, since you count six years from the time those kids entered college (2002) to 2008 graduation, allowing a year or so to collect the data (2009).

Hockey graduates 82% of its players in six years. That's a terrific rate.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/nH8egsrAggr2009/1_0.pdf

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

The NCAA measures Graduation Success Rate (GSR) as the rate of athletes who get their degrees in six years. Six years is similar to the rate of regular students to get their degrees across the country.

In order to measure six year success rates, going back to 2002 is appropriate, since you count six years from the time those kids entered college (2002) to 2008 graduation, allowing a year or so to collect the data (2009).

Hockey graduates 82% of its players in six years. That's a terrific rate.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/nH8egsrAggr2009/1_0.pdf

I believe the NCAA groups all players at all levels involved in a sport to produce their statistics: Division I, II, III, and perhaps club sports too. As the level of competition decreases the incentive for admission/academic/ financial mischief decreases. Similarly, it would be folly to contend that the athletic and academic programs of all schools within a division or league exhibit the same virtues and vices.
The graduation rates of athletes enrolled in individual schools are very difficult to discover; the academic success of members of a particular sports team in an individual school appear to be inaccessable to the layman. Unfortunately, the academic circumstances of members of individual college teams is the focus of my concerns about the future of college hockey. Bowen's research does shed some troubling (for educators, if not fans) light upon the relationship between academics and athletics in some selected schools and groups of schools.
His work is his intellectual property. Even if it weren't I would not take the time to duplicate and post his findings for the "What, me worry?" crowd, for they likely would not bother to read it and risk disturbing their convictions.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I believe the NCAA groups all players at all levels involved in a sport to produce their statistics: Division I, II, III, and perhaps club sports too. As the level of competition decreases the incentive for admission/academic/ financial mischief decreases. Similarly, it would be folly to contend that the athletic and academic programs of all schools within a division or league exhibit the same virtues and vices.
The graduation rates of athletes enrolled in individual schools are very difficult to discover; the academic success of members of a particular sports team in an individual school appear to be inaccessable to the layman. Unfortunately, the academic circumstances of members of individual college teams is the focus of my concerns about the future of college hockey. Bowen's research does shed some troubling (for educators, if not fans) light upon the relationship between academics and athletics in some selected schools and groups of schools.
His work is his intellectual property. Even if it weren't I would not take the time to duplicate and post his findings for the "What, me worry?" crowd, for they likely would not bother to read it and risk disturbing their convictions.

BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAH,

a.) ""What, me worry?" crowd, for they likely would not bother to read it"

You nincompoop, the NCAA does not group D1, D2, club etc all together and had you bothered to read some of the links posted to you, you would see that.

BAHAHAHAHaHA

Let me reword that last sentence of yours for you and you tell me if you would buy it?
I have data that shows otherwise and I'm not going to show it to you, because you probably wouldn't read it. Nanananan goo goo

You are something special you are. But hey, why let facts and statistics ruin a good rant......

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I believe the NCAA groups all players at all levels involved in a sport to produce their statistics: Division I, II, III, and perhaps club sports too. As the level of competition decreases the incentive for admission/academic/ financial mischief decreases. Similarly, it would be folly to contend that the athletic and academic programs of all schools within a division or league exhibit the same virtues and vices.
The graduation rates of athletes enrolled in individual schools are very difficult to discover; the academic success of members of a particular sports team in an individual school appear to be inaccessable to the layman. Unfortunately, the academic circumstances of members of individual college teams is the focus of my concerns about the future of college hockey. Bowen's research does shed some troubling (for educators, if not fans) light upon the relationship between academics and athletics in some selected schools and groups of schools.
His work is his intellectual property. Even if it weren't I would not take the time to duplicate and post his findings for the "What, me worry?" crowd, for they likely would not bother to read it and risk disturbing their convictions.

GSRs are not that hard to find. And club sports don't count. They are all right listed here by school:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaa...r/2009/841gfw951_2009_d1_school_gsr_data.html

I haven't read Bowen's book, but I still contend that the number of kids in Division I hockey in academic trouble is a very tiny number, and with 82% of the hockey athletes graduating with a degree, our sport is doing very well when you stack it up against the all-student averages at the schools that play hockey. There is always the chance that hockey may fall into the basketball and football academic morass, but the chances remain low, largely because most college hockey athletes arecoming from well-educated families with solid financial resources, unlike football and basketball, where many more athletes are coming from less affluent and less educated families or poor schools.

 

[ts8801]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I believe the NCAA groups all players at all levels involved in a sport to produce their statistics: Division I, II, III, and perhaps club sports too. As the level of competition decreases the incentive for admission/academic/ financial mischief decreases. Similarly, it would be folly to contend that the athletic and academic programs of all schools within a division or league exhibit the same virtues and vices.
The graduation rates of athletes enrolled in individual schools are very difficult to discover; the academic success of members of a particular sports team in an individual school appear to be inaccessable to the layman. Unfortunately, the academic circumstances of members of individual college teams is the focus of my concerns about the future of college hockey. Bowen's research does shed some troubling (for educators, if not fans) light upon the relationship between academics and athletics in some selected schools and groups of schools.
His work is his intellectual property. Even if it weren't I would not take the time to duplicate and post his findings for the "What, me worry?" crowd, for they likely would not bother to read it and risk disturbing their convictions.

<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sX161ulHrSA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sX161ulHrSA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object>

 

[Patman]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I believe the NCAA groups all players at all levels involved in a sport to produce their statistics: Division I, II, III, and perhaps club sports too. As the level of competition decreases the incentive for admission/academic/ financial mischief decreases. Similarly, it would be folly to contend that the athletic and academic programs of all schools within a division or league exhibit the same virtues and vices.
The graduation rates of athletes enrolled in individual schools are very difficult to discover; the academic success of members of a particular sports team in an individual school appear to be inaccessable to the layman. Unfortunately, the academic circumstances of members of individual college teams is the focus of my concerns about the future of college hockey. Bowen's research does shed some troubling (for educators, if not fans) light upon the relationship between academics and athletics in some selected schools and groups of schools.
His work is his intellectual property. Even if it weren't I would not take the time to duplicate and post his findings for the "What, me worry?" crowd, for they likely would not bother to read it and risk disturbing their convictions.

How much do we want to bet that Bowen looked at college athletics as a whole?

You are here presenting a radical shift... the burden of proof is on you. If Bowen's work (whoever he is) was that ****ing and concerning I think we'd have quite a few people here versed in it.

BTW, some of us work or have worked within the university setting or have worked in the university setting on the academic side. I typed in poor grades and excellent grades for various athletes (I wasn't the professor for full disclosure) in what is easily a fail course for athletes. I have had one student in a discussion section who is now playing in the NBA. I am aware with the problems and issues of college academics within college athletics. Your overbearing concern is not justified.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

How much do we want to bet that Bowen looked at college athletics as a whole?

You are here presenting a radical shift... the burden of proof is on you. If Bowen's work (whoever he is) was that ****ing and concerning I think we'd have quite a few people here versed in it.

BTW, some of us work or have worked within the university setting or have worked in the university setting on the academic side. I typed in poor grades and excellent grades for various athletes (I wasn't the professor for full disclosure) in what is easily a fail course for athletes. I have had one student in a discussion section who is now playing in the NBA. I am aware with the problems and issues of college academics within college athletics. Your overbearing concern is not justified.

William G. Bowen is past president of Princeton University and currently the president of the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. He is the author and co-author of several books which research and examine the relationships between academics and athletics in American colleges and universities. He is widely considered a, if not THE leading authority on this subject. His research and studies are focused on specific public and private schools, which he names. Bowen is concerned about trends in the relationships between academics and athletics. He does not seem to exclude any sports from these trends.

How can concern about the well being of academic and athletic programs be "overbearing?" Misplaced, perhaps, but in this case research and scholarship suggest there is cause for such concern. The vehement denials and personal attacks resulting from expressing this concern are further evidence the concern has merit. Such forceful denials come from people whose valued beliefs and opinions are challenged by threats perceived as real. Rational people do not react so strenuously to circumstances which they know are imaginary.

 

[WildKitty]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Rational people ask for proof. You've been asked. Repeatedly. You claim you wish to avoid copyright infringement - the term you used was intellectual property, or something like that.

You apparently being a fan of college hockey (although this thread leaves room for doubt), may I assume that you have once attended an institution of higher learning? Surely you have heard of citation. Not the kind you have to pay or go to jail - the kind that follows every resource, term paper, thesis... generally found in the last few pages.

No one on the boards cares if you use Chcago, APA, or martian format for your citation. You're so scared of lawsuit? Cite the dratted book you keep referring to! What page? Who published it? If you really want to cover your posterior, you can even include the ISBN!

We like to discuss things. And many here like to point out the many inconsistencies or idiocies of other posters. It's just who we/they are. Their continued attempts to put back on track a seemingly derailed mind are NOT evidence that they are scared of something. However, your continued avoidance of actual proof does imply that you have something to hide.

Author's Name (Last, First.) Title (in quotations). Date of publication: Publishing Company. Page number(s). You may proceed.

 

[ts8801]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

William G. Bowen is past president of Princeton University and currently the president of the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation. He is the author and co-author of several books which research and examine the relationships between academics and athletics in American colleges and universities. He is widely considered a, if not THE leading authority on this subject. His research and studies are focused on specific public and private schools, which he names. Bowen is concerned about trends in the relationships between academics and athletics. He does not seem to exclude any sports from these trends.

How can concern about the well being of academic and athletic programs be "overbearing?" Misplaced, perhaps, but in this case research and scholarship suggest there is cause for such concern. The vehement denials and personal attacks resulting from expressing this concern are further evidence the concern has merit. Such forceful denials come from people whose valued beliefs and opinions are challenged by threats perceived as real. Rational people do not react so strenuously to circumstances which they know are imaginary.

We also continue to bring valid counter points which you only selectively argue against. Bring proof and respond to all of them if you want to have a chance convincing anyone.

I think you need to get out of the sky is falling la la land you are currently in and join the rest of us in reality.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Division I college hockey programs should follow the successful reorganization of Olympic hockey as it turned from amateur to professional. It's easy: just replace the name of the country with the name of the school.

Junior hockey progams are numerous, the players are talented, and Junior Hockey wishes to attract more paying fans. College hockey programs have large numbers of devoted fans and hockey rinks. Simply rename Junior Hockey teams with the names of the colleges the Junior teams agree to represent! The players could live near campus and practice and play in the college's rink. The players could dress up in the college's uniforms and play many more games a year than a college team burdened by academic expectations.

I would never make a two-hour trip back to St. Cloud to simply watch some local Junior-league team. Most people would likely share my view. The attachment to the school creates an intangible attachment to the fan. Most fans' attraction to their college's/university's teams have less to do with their overall success than the simple existence of an outlet of school pride. Take MTU for example. That program has had nothing buy nightmares for the past 15-20 years, and yet they still have a number of die-hard fans that travel all over the Midwest to see their team. Do you see that same sort of dedication from Junior team fans in this country? Don't make the mistake of comparing Canadian Juniors to a similar product in the US. The two markets are not interchangeable.

The college would be spared the costs of coaches and trainers, conserve classroom space and professors' time, and avoid the embarrassing need to suspend academic and admission standards. College funds previously used for athletic scholarships could be used for academic scholarships instead. The renamed Junior teams would attract fans from both town and gown. This larger fan base and larger game schedule would result in greater profits, which the Junior hockey program could split with the colleges. The quality of "college" hockey would improve, the popularity of hockey would grow, revenue would increase, and abuse of academic standards would decrease. What more could college hockey fans desire?

I fail to see how this could be? Your premise that academic scholarships would/could simply transfer to academic scholarships is simply wrong with regards to the larger programs and schools. I won't speak to the smaller schools out east, as I simply am unfamiliar with their structure, or the unique case of the EZAC. Many of these schools have dedicated pools provided by booster clubs and created through the profits of their sport teams. I remember reading a few years back that SCSU's hockey program pays for something like 75% of the total athletic budget - scholarships and all. Why would the divorce itself of that revenue stream?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I would never make a two-hour trip back to St. Cloud to simply watch some local Junior-league team. Most people would likely share my view. The attachment to the school creates an intangible attachment to the fan. Most fans' attraction to their college's/university's teams have less to do with their overall success than the simple existence of an outlet of school pride.

Exactly. Osorojo's proposal would decimate fan interest in the games. Then again, maybe that's not so bad in his opinion - if fans don't show, then these new semi-pro teams wouldn't pay very well, so the top prospects wouldn't come, so those who do would end up having to stay for 4 years.

If he were a doctor, I bet his solution for stopping cancer from spreading would be to shoot the patient immediately after diagnosis. Problem solved!

 

[leswp1]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

I keep coming in here trying to find the basis for the whole thread and it seems like it is one person with an opinion that is not swayed by any factual evidence or logic, who won't answer any serious inquiries regarding his opinion and a bunch of other people countering his lame argument that has no basis with a bunch of factual evidence. Why do I keep reading this

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Reforming College Hockey

Why do I keep reading this

Les, I've been asking myself the same question. I think we're reading on the off hope that something sparking sensible debate comes through from Bear-red.

The only way his original post has any sort of merit whatsoever is if a college uses a junior team as a farm team. Obviously, unlike the pros, you can't go back and forth. However, in RPI's case, one of the former assistant coaches is now going to head coach a junior team, and some of the school's recruits have flocked to this junior team for a year. If you can match similar play styles in a young player's development, it would show terrific growth. It's still a system, and who knows what would happen should they get to the NHL, but it would boost confidence in a solid program. Replacement is a terrible idea IMO, but long systems would be great. Of course there are academic challenges, but there will always be those. If they weren't confident about academics, the players would be in Kitchener now.