Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

[brassbonanza]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

Show me a replay that definitively shows the puck never went out of play or touched any part of the netting. You can't, because there isn't one. Is that a possible scenario? Sure. But did anyone see that? No.

I wouldn't really want to see a game every year as it would only dilute the rivalry and turn Cornell into a defacto conference member. BU already has two OOC games taken up with the Beanpot, which sure as hell ain't going anywhere, so I wouldn't be for making 33% of our OOC schedule exactly the same every year. That said, I would like the game to be on some consistent basis, alternating between MSG, Lynah and Agganis in some form.

 

[KnightsOfTheRound]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

And its absolutely a referee's job to track a puck while its still in play. I understand that they can't always do it, but it doesn't mean that I can't be frustrated when a puck that never went out of play and ends up as a legitimate goal gets waived off because the play was whistled dead.

9 refs out of 10 would have blown that play dead, and all 9 of them would have been correct to do so because they couldn't see the puck. I bet that the 10th ref would have even waived off the "goal" on the basis of assuming the puck was out of play and because of his intent to blow the play dead.

If you watch the video, the players had even stopped playing the puck by that point and were skating away.

I think it was 100% the right call no matter how you slice it.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

I agree with you largely. Perhaps it will become an every year thing once Hockey East expands and we drop down to a 22 game league schedule. To make it big (at least on BU's campus) they would have to schedule it on a weekend that is not thanksgiving weekend when all the students are gone. The games held over Thanksgiving weekend at Agganis are usually as close to a ghost town as it gets on Comm Ave. Maybe this would be a good rivalry to bring back as the Tuesday before Thanksgiving game. Then do it on a 3 year rotation... one at Agganis, one at Lynah, one at MSG.

If they were going to do it at Agganis, take it totally away from the Thanksgiving holiday, as people start going home the Friday before, and almost everyone is gone Tuesday night. Maybe put it the weekend after BC. Sure, it's around finals, but everyone is there at least. Or sometime in October. It would be a shame to put this game on campus over a holiday weekend.

 

[css228]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

I get your frustration, honestly, I do. But come on - a puck that never went out of play? How are you so sure? Were you the only person in the arena that kept your eye on it the whole time? Everyone lost sight of it. It was a fast moving puck. And it had to have hit something for it to cross over the net - which meant it was heading towards the back - to flick it up. Based on the video, if Millan had gotten a piece of it, or the crossbar, wouldn't we have seen that change in direction? Which means it had to have hit something to deflect it upwards. I've seen plays called dead when the refs lost sight of a puck that on the white ice behind a goalie. Since no one on the ice could see where this one went, the ref had to call the play dead.

Logically, pucks don't hit nets and bounce out in front of the goal. Had to have hit something that wouldn't have killed it and dropped it straight down, since we didn't hear the crossbar, likely it hit the dasher. Either way, I'm done talking about this play, because you're absolutely right, I lost sight just like everyone else in that arena, I guess I just expect more of refs because they're getting paid to do a job. Either way it was a great game, and there were more egregious things to be upset about if you want to talk about refs (logically its hard to figure out how someone can get a penalty for diving with an accompanying minor given to the guy who took him down, the calls seem exclusive but from what I'm reading HE refs do it all the time and no other refs do so maybe its an HE thing?), and things guys need to work on (one too many passes way too many times). Iles was fantastic in net, and Ferlin looked like the best player on the ice much of the time. The breakout needs to improve, but much of the passing game was sloppy for both teams due to poor ice (which was also a problem during the earlier NYR - PHI game, and being the second game when the ice was already poor in the first couldn't have helped much). Overall encouraging game from the Red who I fully expect to split at CC in January.

 

[candycanes99]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

Logically, pucks don't hit nets and bounce out in front of the goal. Had to have hit something that wouldn't have killed it and dropped it straight down, since we didn't hear the crossbar, likely it hit the dasher.

Certainly, especially given how high the puck went. I actually did see it live on its way back down (missed seeing wherever it hit of course). The overhead view on MSG is a bit deceiving since the camera is mounted so high up. It almost seems to fall in slow motion in that video even though the speed is live; that puck was extremely high up there. Heck, at several barns in college hockey there'd be no doubt that it went out of play because it would have hit the ceiling!

(logically its hard to figure out how someone can get a penalty for diving with an accompanying minor given to the guy who took him down, the calls seem exclusive but from what I'm reading HE refs do it all the time and no other refs do so maybe its an HE thing?),

The penalty called was not diving. It was embellishment. The latter is called when a player tries to exaggerate a legitimate penalty. It actually does happen quite frequently, but is called as infrequently as diving is. They are two separate rules in NCAA and are called that way. If it's called more by HE referees than other leagues, perhaps you can thank Nathan Gerbe. As to whether or not it was the right call, I remember thinking live that the call was sold a little bit by the Cornell guy, but was surprised they had the balls to make that call.

From the NCAA rulebook:

SECTION 11. a. A player shall not attempt to draw a penalty through any
exaggerated or deceitful action. A diving penalty is a stand-alone penalty.
PENALTY—Minor for diving.
b. A player who has been fouled shall not exaggerate the impact of the foul.
An embellishment penalty is called in conjunction with an opponent’s
penalty.
PENALTY—Minor for embellishment.

 

[css228]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

Certainly, especially given how high the puck went. I actually did see it live on its way back down (missed seeing wherever it hit of course). The overhead view on MSG is a bit deceiving since the camera is mounted so high up. It almost seems to fall in slow motion in that video even though the speed is live; that puck was extremely high up there. Heck, at several barns in college hockey there'd be no doubt that it went out of play because it would have hit the ceiling!


The penalty called was not diving. It was embellishment. The latter is called when a player tries to exaggerate a legitimate penalty. It actually does happen quite frequently, but is called as infrequently as diving is. They are two separate rules in NCAA and are called that way. If it's called more by HE referees than other leagues, perhaps you can thank Nathan Gerbe. As to whether or not it was the right call, I remember thinking live that the call was sold a little bit by the Cornell guy, but was surprised they had the balls to make that call.

From the NCAA rulebook:

Definitely would have hit a banner or a rafter at Lynah, and probably a rafter at most ECAC barns. And that's good to know, I've never seen that called in ECAC play before or in the few chances I've gotten to watch CCHA and WCHA hockey. With Carnelian tinted lenses, it still seems to me a poor call, but at least its not logically incoherent.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

If they were going to do it at Agganis, take it totally away from the Thanksgiving holiday, as people start going home the Friday before, and almost everyone is gone Tuesday night. Maybe put it the weekend after BC. Sure, it's around finals, but everyone is there at least. Or sometime in October. It would be a shame to put this game on campus over a holiday weekend.

I dont know... I agree with you for the Friday and Sat nights after Thanksgiving, but I remember some pretty good crowds at the Tuesday prior to turkey games...some people are gone for sure, but I think everyone who is in town goes, since there is not much else to do on that Tuesday evening.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

CU/BU sells out MSG? Could it be that DI hockey appeals to upscale residents and visitors to NYC? Savvy advertisers eventually notice such things, as do large television networks. Hidebound rural college hockey fans - not so much.

 

[defkit]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

Certainly, especially given how high the puck went. I actually did see it live on its way back down (missed seeing wherever it hit of course). The overhead view on MSG is a bit deceiving since the camera is mounted so high up. It almost seems to fall in slow motion in that video even though the speed is live; that puck was extremely high up there. Heck, at several barns in college hockey there'd be no doubt that it went out of play because it would have hit the ceiling!


The penalty called was not diving. It was embellishment. The latter is called when a player tries to exaggerate a legitimate penalty. It actually does happen quite frequently, but is called as infrequently as diving is. They are two separate rules in NCAA and are called that way. If it's called more by HE referees than other leagues, perhaps you can thank Nathan Gerbe. As to whether or not it was the right call, I remember thinking live that the call was sold a little bit by the Cornell guy, but was surprised they had the balls to make that call.

From the NCAA rulebook:

I never knew this distinction. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Harry Cleverly]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

A few observations:

1.) A very nice "event," and to see 18,200 from both sides combining for a sea of red. But was it really "sold out"?
It looked a lot like a game at the new Yankee Stadium, with the most expensive seats down low, across from the benches, empty ... but everywhere else was packed.

2.) Very nice of Cornell to give out all of those "Red Hot Hockey" towels with the school logo. Made a nice crying towel for the Big Red after the OT.

3.) I wonder how many in the crowd remember that in the late '60s and 1970s that Cornell was a much bigger rival for BU than BC was back then. Certainly not today's students.

4.) BU seemed to have more students at the game, Cornell a lot more alumni.

5.) Is Dean Elmore the most popular man at BU? Cornell fans couldn't figure out how any Dean of Students could be so popular. "Elmore ... Sieve, Elmore ... Sieve."

6.) Embellishment is a stupid rule. It is either a penalty or a dive. Embellishment, something in-between, shouldn't be a penalty.

7.) Does anyone know now, two days later, where that puck went that came down and ended up in the back of the BU net? No?
It clearly went in after the whistle, so no goal was the only possible outcome. Not only did the referee lose site of it, but so did everyone else and the TV cameras, so the whistle had to be blown.

8.) Cornell's young goalie is very good, and they play a nice, close-checking style. But if they tried to open it up against a good team they'd be in big trouble.

9.) I'd like to see BU and Cornell play once every year - every other year at MSG, and in between they could play a game at Agganis one year and Lynah the other. I don't think that would oversaturate the rivalry for RHH.

10.) Props to the BU band, who stepped it up and more than met the challenge posed by the always clever Cornell band.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

A few observations:



6.) Embellishment is a stupid rule. It is either a penalty or a dive. Embellishment, something in-between, shouldn't be a penalty.

This is an admirably sensible analysis. I hope college hockey rules officials see it and do the right thing.

 

[css228]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

A few observations:

1.) A very nice "event," and to see 18,200 from both sides combining for a sea of red. But was it really "sold out"?
It looked a lot like a game at the new Yankee Stadium, with the most expensive seats down low, across from the benches, empty ... but everywhere else was packed.

2.) Very nice of Cornell to give out all of those "Red Hot Hockey" towels with the school logo. Made a nice crying towel for the Big Red after the OT.

3.) I wonder how many in the crowd remember that in the late '60s and 1970s that Cornell was a much bigger rival for BU than BC was back then. Certainly not today's students.

4.) BU seemed to have more students at the game, Cornell a lot more alumni.

5.) Is Dean Elmore the most popular man at BU? Cornell fans couldn't figure out how any Dean of Students could be so popular. "Elmore ... Sieve, Elmore ... Sieve."

6.) Embellishment is a stupid rule. It is either a penalty or a dive. Embellishment, something in-between, shouldn't be a penalty.

7.) Does anyone know now, two days later, where that puck went that came down and ended up in the back of the BU net? No?
It clearly went in after the whistle, so no goal was the only possible outcome. Not only did the referee lose site of it, but so did everyone else and the TV cameras, so the whistle had to be blown.

8.) Cornell's young goalie is very good, and they play a nice, close-checking style. But if they tried to open it up against a good team they'd be in big trouble.

9.) I'd like to see BU and Cornell play once every year - every other year at MSG, and in between they could play a game at Agganis one year and Lynah the other. I don't think that would oversaturate the rivalry for RHH.

10.) Props to the BU band, who stepped it up and more than met the challenge posed by the always clever Cornell band.

They did open it up against Yale and won 6-2... I think the primary reason we didn't see either team really open up and score a lot was A) Iles and BU's sieve stood on their heads and B) the ice conditions were very poor, this being the 2nd game of the day on that ice with the ice being noted as poor during the Flyers-Rangers game earlier that day. Both teams were in the top 10 in GPG coming in so that's the only explanation I can come to as for both teams missing the net so much. Also, Cornell did have a lot of students there, but it just seemed like fewer because the alumni turnout was so great that the ratio of students to alums was smaller. But if everyone here is for the every other year at MSG with intervening years at the respective campuses (when students are there obviously) then we should all contact our respective AD's and tell them to get it done. I'd love to see BU come to Lynah before I graduate.

 

[sterlippo1]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

Could it be that DI hockey appeals to upscale residents and visitors to NYC?

no

 

[Bumbles]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

I wouldn't want to play Cornell every year because if we did, they'd basically be a conference member. I definitely agree we should play on a fairly consistent basis but every year is too much. Keeping it the way it is with every other yr at MSG is perfectly fine with me.

Also, Cornell should know that this is definitely their event. Cornell has a ton more alums/students living in the NYC area than BU does and I'm sure they'd be able to sell out regardless of who they played.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

Also, Cornell should know that this is definitely their event. Cornell has a ton more alums/students living in the NYC area than BU does and I'm sure they'd be able to sell out regardless of who they played.

Didn't Cornell play in Newark last year and struggle to fill a third of the arena?

 

[css228]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

Didn't Cornell play in Newark last year and struggle to fill a third of the arena?

Played Colgate. Playing your travel partner in an OOC game isn't going to get you a crowd.

 

[ithacat]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

A few observations:

1.) A very nice "event," and to see 18,200 from both sides combining for a sea of red. But was it really "sold out"?
It looked a lot like a game at the new Yankee Stadium, with the most expensive seats down low, across from the benches, empty ... but everywhere else was packed.

2.) Very nice of Cornell to give out all of those "Red Hot Hockey" towels with the school logo. Made a nice crying towel for the Big Red after the OT.

3.) I wonder how many in the crowd remember that in the late '60s and 1970s that Cornell was a much bigger rival for BU than BC was back then. Certainly not today's students.

4.) BU seemed to have more students at the game, Cornell a lot more alumni.

5.) Is Dean Elmore the most popular man at BU? Cornell fans couldn't figure out how any Dean of Students could be so popular. "Elmore ... Sieve, Elmore ... Sieve."

6.) Embellishment is a stupid rule. It is either a penalty or a dive. Embellishment, something in-between, shouldn't be a penalty.

7.) Does anyone know now, two days later, where that puck went that came down and ended up in the back of the BU net? No?
It clearly went in after the whistle, so no goal was the only possible outcome. Not only did the referee lose site of it, but so did everyone else and the TV cameras, so the whistle had to be blown.

8.) Cornell's young goalie is very good, and they play a nice, close-checking style. But if they tried to open it up against a good team they'd be in big trouble.

9.) I'd like to see BU and Cornell play once every year - every other year at MSG, and in between they could play a game at Agganis one year and Lynah the other. I don't think that would oversaturate the rivalry for RHH.

10.) Props to the BU band, who stepped it up and more than met the challenge posed by the always clever Cornell band.

Enjoyed your observations.

I'm in complete agreement with you on #6. Nothing sums it up better than saying it's stupid. I'm not saying that as a Cornell fan because it happened to a Cornell player (for the 2nd time this year) -- it just doesn't make any sense.

As for young Andy Iles, BU fans may not know that when they scored in the 1st period they stopped his shutout streak at 213:35, which is now the 2nd longest streak in Cornell history.

I hope the series continues; it's a blast to go to MSG and take in the experience. It would, however, be nice to get a game at Lynah and at Agganis worked into the rotation somehow -- would love to see Cornell @ Agganis (took in a Vermont v BU game a few years ago and it's a beautiful facility).

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

I don't understand why the concept of penalty+embellishment is so hard to grasp. Why can't both players be in the wrong? That's like saying if two guys get in a fight, only the one who threw the first punch should get the roughing penalty. Embellishment (after legit penalties) is most definitely a slippery slope to diving (after non-penalties) creeping into the sport, and nobody wants that. Skate hard, keep your legs moving, play through the penalty, and leave the drama to the Italian soccer players.

(I'm a Cornell fan but did not watch the game and have not seen video of the incident in the Cornell-BU game; this is just my general opinion on the topic)

 

[chickod]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

...a puck that never went out of play and ends up as a legitimate goal gets waived off because the play was whistled dead.

"Legitimate" goal? C'mon...even all of the players STOPPED. Why did they stop? Because they HEARD THE WHISTLE. And we all heard it too (and probably so did you). End of story.

 

[sterlippo1]

Re: Red. Hot. Hockey. III. - BU vs. Cornell

"Legitimate" goal? C'mon...even all of the players STOPPED. Why did they stop? Because they HEARD THE WHISTLE. And we all heard it too (and probably so did you). End of story.

It really is the end of the story. As much as i wanted it to be a goal it WAS after the whistle AND everyone stopped playing BECAUSE they heard the whistle. Truly the most messed up play i've ever seen though and we cant even blame JP.......