Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

[hockeydad94]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

In that case, how has the other goalie played that she is competing for playing time with?

Great question! Very inconsistent, some games she doesn't even show up mentally. Save percentage is about 90%, gaa well into the 3.0's. Overall, just about last place in the league for all goaltenders using the stats as a ranking mechanism. Like if the other goalies on her team were standing on their heads, I would tell her to learn from them and enjoy the ride, something good for the team is going to happen.

 

[hockeydad94]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

That is a tough situation but I think that it is something that needs to be answered by other goalies. Rookie goalies in situations where there are proven seniors just don't get the time by what I see unless the senior falters.I see national team invite players start 2/3 games their rookie year. So unless you know they have recruited another top end goalie for next year I wouldn't worry. My admiration and respect to those young ladies who are used to top minutes in nets as their situation has got to be tough mentally. Just look at the big picture when she is a junior/senior would she be willing to split starts with a freshman?

Excellent food for thought! To answer your question, she would prefer to start in as many games as possible, however, if she felt that her play wasn't her best, she would not have a problem with another goalie playing.

 

[rugrats]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

Okay, time for a little confession. I started this thread because my daughter had a number of recruiting promises made to her and to date, not one has been kept. I wanted to hear from others as to what their experience was and not making this a complaining thread. The promises consisted of playing time, even more playing time if she worked hard & performed well, and an equipment allowance. When has had the opportunity to play, she has done a very good job. My daughter had a number of other college offers, but the playing time was THE deal maker. She loves the school and is having a great college experience, but the hockey part has become the most frustrating season of her life. Unless there is a stark change for next year, I see her transferring or possibly giving up hockey and staying at this school. It is amazing that this coach has been able to operate like this and get away with it (my daughter is not the only one).

Just an FYI... If your daughter is considering a transfer to another school to play hockey, she should be aware of a new rule coming into affect for next year. The rule requires a transfer to attend the the new school for 1 academic year before she would be allowed to play. So then of course would have to sit out 1 year of hockey.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

I don't believe any coach would "promise" any recruit anything.

And you would be completely wrong.

With all due respect, you need to enter the real world and cast aside the pleasant concept that coaches really live all the integrity and committment to excellence talk that they spew everywhere that seems to bamboozle most people. These concepts are quite idealistic and require an unshakeable core value system in order to convert them from concepts to the foundation of one's actual daily behaviour.

I certainly agree that they should "live" these concepts because they are supposed to be role models among other things. But, unfortunately, they are frail humanoids most of whom certainly talk the talk, but as well, certainly don't walk the walk.

If you find anyone in life, a mate, a friend, a relative, a neighbour, a co-worker, anyone, who not only talks the talk but walks the walk even when it is inconvenient to do so...especially, when it is inconvenient to do so, consider yourself very fortunate to know them...and learn from them, because you have just found an extremely rare human being...someone to emulate.

As another poster said in this thread..."a promise is a promise. Period." I couldn't agree more. After all, if it isn't, then what's the point of making it in the first place? It's supposed to mean something...something that the one you're making it to can count on...if not, then the one making it has just proven themselves to be untrustworthy. What more needs to be said?

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

Okay, time for a little confession. I started this thread because my daughter had a number of recruiting promises made to her and to date, not one has been kept. I wanted to hear from others as to what their experience was and not making this a complaining thread. The promises consisted of playing time, even more playing time if she worked hard & performed well, and an equipment allowance. When has had the opportunity to play, she has done a very good job. My daughter had a number of other college offers, but the playing time was THE deal maker. She loves the school and is having a great college experience, but the hockey part has become the most frustrating season of her life. Unless there is a stark change for next year, I see her transferring or possibly giving up hockey and staying at this school. It is amazing that this coach has been able to operate like this and get away with it (my daughter is not the only one).

Another goalie parent chipping in here...

There are some important life lessons your daughter needs to be learning here. First is what she is at college for. It is good that she is enjoying the school and the rest of the experience. It sounds like she has the "important" things well in hand - she is at a place she is enjoying (important for motivation) and doing well at the academics in a major she enjoys. The hockey isn't that great right now. Two out of 3 ain't bad. It sounds like she is used to having it all, though as most would be pretty happy with this arrangement. My daughter would fall into this category. Risking it all for the next set of "promises" to me sounds like it is coming from someone who doesn't know that it can get much worse. Trust me, coachs "get away with it" everywhere. My daughter's goalie friends have had a mixed bag of experiences, many of which sound just like your daughter's.

She was promised to start in about a third of the games. The games that she has played in, she has done very well. This is evidenced by her stats, the opinion her teammates have shared with her, and the press she has received. Discussions with the coach have not revealed anything amiss and there is nothing in her conduct in either a game or in a practice that should discourage the coach from playing her as promised. Have you guessed that she is a goalie?

Your daughter needs to stop reading her press, listening to her teammates (the backup goalie is always the most popular person on a team that is struggling), and just focus on the game of hockey and especially practice. Very few (if any) coaches are good at telling their goalies what they are seeing (because most of them have no idea of how to dissect a goalie both physically and mentally) and looking for and tend to make decisions on what seems to be irrational criteria. Add to that the fact that most goalies don't see the game the way the coaches see it and you have what is normal in hockey - neurotic goalies and coaches who pull out their hair dealing with neurotic goalies. And you know what kills goalies in most coaches eyes? An uneven keel - the neurotic goalie. They want calm, focused netminders who aren't flustered by things out of their control (like when they get ice).

The more she focuses on why she isn't getting what she wants, the more it will hurt her when she actually gets it. She can't maintain a high level of mental play when she is worrying about whether she has finally proven herself to the coach. Too much to carry around. And if she transfers and gets ice time, the "I knew it the whole time" mentality will quickly turn into a mental letdown and she will become the player she thinks she should be replacing today.

Sorry to be a bearer of difficult news, but I've been through the explain what the coach is thinking exercise myself and you know, it really doesn't matter what the coach is thinking because you cannot do anything about it. And I think my daughter has figured that out and it doesn't stress her so much now, although she still scratches her head about the whole situation.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

And you would be completely wrong.

With all due respect, you need to enter the real world and cast aside the pleasant concept that coaches really live all the integrity and committment to excellence talk that they spew everywhere that seems to bamboozle most people. These concepts are quite idealistic and require an unshakeable core value system in order to convert them from concepts to the foundation of one's actual daily behaviour.

I certainly agree that they should "live" these concepts because they are supposed to be role models among other things. But, unfortunately, they are frail humanoids most of whom certainly talk the talk, but as well, certainly don't walk the walk.

If you find anyone in life, a mate, a friend, a relative, a neighbour, a co-worker, anyone, who not only talks the talk but walks the walk even when it is inconvenient to do so...especially, when it is inconvenient to do so, consider yourself very fortunate to know them...and learn from them, because you have just found an extremely rare human being...someone to emulate.

As another poster said in this thread..."a promise is a promise. Period." I couldn't agree more. After all, if it isn't, then what's the point of making it in the first place? It's supposed to mean something...something that the one you're making it to can count on...if not, then the one making it has just proven themselves to be untrustworthy. What more needs to be said?

Truer words were never spoken. You nailed it.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

Another goalie parent chipping in here...

There are some important life lessons your daughter needs to be learning here. First is what she is at college for. It is good that she is enjoying the school and the rest of the experience.....

Risking it all for the next set of "promises" to me sounds like it is coming from someone who doesn't know that it can get much worse. Trust me, coachs "get away with it" everywhere. My daughter's friends have had a mixed bag of experiences, many of which sound just like your daughter's.

Sorry to be a bearer of difficult news, but I've been through the explain what the coach is thinking exercise myself and you know, it really doesn't matter what the coach is thinking because you cannot do anything about it. And I think my daughter has figured that out and it doesn't stress her so much now, although she still scratches her head about the whole situation.

All very true. Unfortunately, the reality is that life on many, if not most, college teams is no bed of roses, regardless of what position you play. I've heard enough about different issues from players in most places over the years--unless you are deemed one of the star attractions. In all likelihood, if you opt to change schools for the sake of a couple more years of hockey you will find similar problems (or a whole new set), despite the images coaches may project in the process. Things could potentially be even worse. A great many coaches out there leave a whole lot to be desired simply as human beings, and many are surprisingly mediocre in terms of their hockey and leadership savvy.

It's an important life lesson. At some point in life, unless you are very lucky, you will be working with/for someone who leaves much to be desired. As was said, you really can't do much about what a coach (or your boss) thinks of you, if you've already done everything that could be reasonably expected in order to change their mind. But you always have a choice in how to deal with it. The important thing is to not let their thinking eat you up and affect you emotionally, and potentially have a negative impact on you beyond the rink. Just because they are in charge does not mean they are not wrong. You need to find a way to detach to maintain your self-esteem. Some can learn to do that within the environment, others need to leave the team and/or the school to do what is best for your long term success and happiness.

If your daughter is loving thriving at the school she's at off the ice, why take a risk making things worse not only hockey-wise, but beyond it?

 

[ARM]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

A great many coaches out there leave a whole lot to be desired simply as human beings ...

To the extent that it is true of all who populate the earth, then I agree. To single out coaches and make them sound flawed in particular, I believe goes too far. These coaches have 20 some kids at once, and they are trying to look out for the interest of all of them plus the team as a whole. If you had 20 kids, would you be as effective as a parent? Coaches like their players, they want them to experience success, and they have a genuine interest in all of them. Do they make mistakes? Absolutely. Are there some teams that become totally dysfunctional? Yes, there are. But it's my belief that the lion's share of the coaches are sincerely trying to be fair, albeit with human failings. They may not see a situation as you or I would, but many of these aren't absolutes where one path is right and another wrong. Like any group, some are better than others, but I've been impressed with the caliber of people that I've met.

 

[WIrinkrat]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

To the extent that it is true of all who populate the earth, then I agree. To single out coaches and make them sound flawed in particular, I believe goes too far. These coaches have 20 some kids at once, and they are trying to look out for the interest of all of them plus the team as a whole. If you had 20 kids, would you be as effective as a parent? Coaches like their players, they want them to experience success, and they have a genuine interest in all of them. Do they make mistakes? Absolutely. Are there some teams that become totally dysfunctional? Yes, there are. But it's my belief that the lion's share of the coaches are sincerely trying to be fair, albeit with human failings. They may not see a situation as you or I would, but many of these aren't absolutes where one path is right and another wrong. Like any group, some are better than others, but I've been impressed with the caliber of people that I've met.

+1

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

I think anyone who believes a coach's promise on playing time is a fool. A coach MAY have an idea of how players will shake out in roles/icetime/starts in the upcoming year, but you never know until the first practices, and as the season progesses, things can change. My son was "scheduled" to be the starting goalie on his squirt team years ago as he moved up from mites. He was even the mite team's "MVP" playing goalie. Between seasons he put on some weight and lost some flexibility, and the coach decided there were better options in goal and he ended up being a 4th line wing. We had fun that year, like all the rest. Everyone was so happy for him when he scored his lone goal in an end of season tourney. The next year he was back in goal on the squirt B team, a very bad team, but still had fun.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

To the extent that it is true of all who populate the earth, then I agree. To single out coaches and make them sound flawed in particular, I believe goes too far. These coaches have 20 some kids at once, and they are trying to look out for the interest of all of them plus the team as a whole. If you had 20 kids, would you be as effective as a parent? Coaches like their players, they want them to experience success, and they have a genuine interest in all of them. Do they make mistakes? Absolutely. Are there some teams that become totally dysfunctional? Yes, there are. But it's my belief that the lion's share of the coaches are sincerely trying to be fair, albeit with human failings. They may not see a situation as you or I would, but many of these aren't absolutes where one path is right and another wrong. Like any group, some are better than others, but I've been impressed with the caliber of people that I've met.

I wouldn't go so far as to say coaches as a group are necessarily any more flawed than other groups. And yes I know of some who really are terrific both as human beings and leaders, as well as some who are average to mediocre at one or the other, and a few whom I really would not wish on my worst enemy.

But where you and I would seem to disagree is the premise that college coaches are even mostly, like good (or at least well-intentioned) parents, all looking out for the team family as a whole, and also for the interests--genuine or otherwise-- of each of the 20+ individually as well. While this would be desirable, and might be expected by outsiders given their important leadership role, I can say with certainty that to think this always or even usually occurs is extraordinarily naive. Wanting all the individuals on a team to experience success on or off the ice? growth? emotional well-being? Not even close, in many cases.

Many coaches have a self-interest or self-absorption which trumps what is best for the collective group they oversee, and their interest in their charges' development and well-being may not extend beyond a very select few (from which they can bask in reflected glory?)

As I have alluded to before in another thread, I believe the problem is two-fold: living in a culture which tends to deify sports and its coaches at the college level, distort their successes and talents to mythological proportions...and turning a blind eye to very real personal or professional failings because we can't deal with having our bubble burst about reality which doesn't totally jive with the vaunted image (eg. think Joe Paterno situation recently in the news), and two, (perhaps related) college coaches generally work in an environment where their performance is not subject to an semblance of a normal annual performance review process (much less, being evaluated based on 360 degree feedback annually), and their power is absolute.

While I generally agree with your point of view on most issues, perhaps it is the above that may also account for our very different perspectives in this case. I'm guessing your interactions with college coaches are based on your brief conversations with them (or players) based on the image they present to the outside, combined with strong positive halo effect in our culture, rather than working with/for them directly at length. My perspective is based on direct feedback from literally dozens of student athletes speaking in confidence, based on their direct experiences....often many years after their college careers have finished. Once removed in a safe environment, they have no reason any longer to sugar coat the behind the scenes realities.

Regardless of ones basic merits as a human being to begin with, working in such an environment is highly conducive to abuses of power, so it would not be surprising to find more dysfunctional leadership than one might find in many business settings as an example, or among well-equiped parents of large families.

In many cases, that is a big part of the reason certain programs have greater difficulty recruiting than many have occurred in the past, regardless of surface appearances based on their record of success.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

But where you and I would seem to disagree is the premise that college coaches are even mostly, like good (or at least well-intentioned) parents, all looking out for the team family as a whole, and also for the interests--genuine or otherwise-- of each of the 20+ individually as well. While this would be desirable, and might be expected by outsiders given their important leadership role, I can say with certainty that to think this always or even usually occurs is extraordinarily naive. Wanting all the individuals on a team to experience success on or off the ice? growth? emotional well-being? Not even close, in many cases.

Many coaches have a self-interest or self-absorption which trumps what is best for the collective group they oversee, and their interest in their charges' development and well-being may not extend beyond a very select few (from which they can bask in reflected glory?)

As I have alluded to before in another thread, I believe the problem is two-fold: living in a culture which tends to deify sports and its coaches at the college level, distort their successes and talents to mythological proportions...and turning a blind eye to very real personal or professional failings because we can't deal with having our bubble burst about reality which doesn't totally jive with the vaunted image (eg. think Joe Paterno situation recently in the news), and two, (perhaps related) college coaches generally work in an environment where their performance is not subject to an semblance of a normal annual performance review process (much less, being evaluated based on 360 degree feedback annually), and their power is absolute.

Very perceptive...very accurate. Self-interest, self-absorption, ego feeders, power seekers etc., etc.. All of them?, no. Many?, enough. These are all easy lines to cross without a seriously deeply rooted core value system that you display by example day in and day out, especially in difficult decisions where you live up to your committments even while knowing it may cause you to lose out on something else, instead of by talking about it.

The position of a coach is a ripe breeding ground for luring those with feeble value systems across those lines (or for contaminating the decent value systems of others) because they wield so much power...ie: scholarships and other enticements and they are virtually unaccountable to anyone...especially the more successful ones.

I too have heard comments from previous high end players after graduation...read, "when they are no longer being held at gun point by the coach and the power that they wield"...and the comments would shock many people...as would some of the things coaches say to their own players in order to justify their actions.

But what goes around comes around...life has a way of balancing out the accounts even though the balancing seldom occurs at the time that would be desired by the one initially with the lower account balance.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Recruiting Promises - Kept and Not Kept

Very perceptive...very accurate. Self-interest, self-absorption, ego feeders, power seekers etc., etc.. All of them?, no. Many?, enough. These are all easy lines to cross without a seriously deeply rooted core value system that you display by example day in and day out, especially in difficult decisions where you live up to your committments even while knowing it may cause you to lose out on something else, instead of by talking about it.

The position of a coach is a ripe breeding ground for luring those with feeble value systems across those lines (or for contaminating the decent value systems of others) because they wield so much power...ie: scholarships and other enticements and they are virtually unaccountable to anyone...especially the more successful ones.

I too have heard comments from previous high end players after graduation...read, "when they are no longer being held at gun point by the coach and the power that they wield"...and the comments would shock many people...as would some of the things coaches say to their own players in order to justify their actions.

Yep, most people would never believe it, even from their own kids....until you hear the same things over and over from several sources. If many parents had an inkling about the distortions in value systems of some, they would think very long and hard about having their children being influenced by those kind of "role models", especially when, for most, they are away from home for the first time.

But what goes around comes around...life has a way of balancing out the accounts even though the balancing seldom occurs at the time that would be desired by the one initially with the lower account balance.

By and large I think that's usually true. At least one would always like to hope so. Though I'm sure we all know of some people from our past who never seemed to get theirs....though maybe they live their lives in private misery.

It's a very useful life skill to learn to deal with impossible people...and impossible situations. We all face that at some point. When you face it a subsequent time, you generally have more self-assurance and perceptiveness to manage it better to your advantage. Thats the plus for those who have to go through it. I guess it builds character. And at least you also can learn what not to do, in leading other people.

For the coaches, distorted egos and inflexibility to change tends to accelerate with long term successful records, and it will typically lead to their ultimate downfall more often than not. As their negative reputations in the recruiting community become more well known based on impressions of former players, recruiting becomes infinitely more difficult, and those historical records become more difficult to replicate....resulting in a downward spiral. If one is lacking in the capacity for self-reflection, humility and the capacity and interest in making personal adjustments and improvements in a spirit of life-long learning and growth, it's inevitable that changes in their ability to recruit will lead to their downfall over time...regardless of their one-time seeming infallibility. I'm sure most of us can think of former college coaches who suffered such a fate, and I have no doubt they are nowhere near the last. There are some programs now having such recruiting challenges.