Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

[Carter]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

seems kind of obvious that it was premeditated to me...

Why would insanity preclude premeditation?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

seems kind of obvious that it was premeditated to me...

Insane people can plan things. See: Howard Hughes.

 

[Twitch Boy]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Fark has started calling the guy Sideshow Bob.

The idea is he wanted to be known as a supervillain, so let's start calling him the furthest thing from it.

I'm all for this.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Insanity defense?

Think it works?

No. Remember, "insanity" is a legal not a clinical term. UNO Fan or other lawyers can explain it, but the standard we apply derives from the "MacNaughton rule," which holds a suspect is deemed able to stand trial if he knew the consequences of his act. Again, a lawyer can explain it, but it's my understanding the insanity defense is rarely offered and even more rarely successful.

Remember that Olympic Centennial park bomber Eric Rudolph set several other bombs, including two at an abortion clinic. The second was intended to kill emergency personnel who had resonded to the first. Is that the act of a "sane" person?

 

[unofan]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Insanity defense?

Think it works?

Only if he can somehow prove he lost the ability to reason right from wrong. (this varies somewhat by state, but that's the simplest and most common variation - the next most common is having an inability to consider the consequences of his actions). Psychopaths generally know right from wrong, they just don't care.

He may also get a temporary reprieve if he isn't competent to stand trial. But that would simply delay the trial indefinitely, not cancel it. And that's fairly rare as well.

Why would insanity preclude premeditation?

It's not that it precludes premeditation, but it could preclude the legal responsibility for it. Again, this is varies by state, but the bar exam answer is that certain crimes are traditionally known as "specific intent" crimes while others (the vast majority, in fact) are "general intent crimes." Specific intent crimes require the state to prove you didn't just intend to shoot the gun, but intended to shoot the gun with the intent to do X. Diminished capacity, just as voluntary drunkenness or many psychological conditions which don't reach the level of legal insanity, often negate specific intent and morph the crimes for which you are culpable into a lesser included charge which only requires general intent.

1st degree murder is generally seen as a specific intent crime. 2nd degree murder is not. But good luck showing that in this case.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Only if he can somehow prove he lost the ability to reason right from wrong. (this varies somewhat by state, but that's the simplest and most common variation - the next most common is having an inability to consider the consequences of his actions)

He may also get a temporary reprieve if he isn't competent to stand trial. But that would simply delay the trial indefinitely, not cancel it. And that's fairly rare as well.


It's not that it precludes premeditation, but it could preclude the legal responsibility for it. Again, this is varies by state, but the bar exam answer is that certain crimes are traditionally known as "specific intent" crimes while others (the vast majority, in fact) are "general intent crimes." Specific intent crimes require the state to prove you didn't just intend to shoot the gun, but intended to shoot the gun with the intent to do X. Diminished capacity, just as voluntary drunkenness or many psychological conditions which don't reach the level of legal insanity, often negate specific intent and morph the crimes for which you are culpable into a lesser included charge which only requires general intent.

1st degree murder is generally seen as a specific intent crime. 2nd degree murder is not.

Maybe his lawyers could emulate Darrow with Leopold and Loeb and let the judge decide.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

It's not that it precludes premeditation, but it could preclude the legal responsibility for it. Again, this is varies by state, but the bar exam answer is that certain crimes are traditionally known as "specific intent" crimes while others (the vast majority, in fact) are "general intent crimes." Specific intent crimes require the state to prove you didn't just intend to shoot the gun, but intended to shoot the gun with the intent to do X. Diminished capacity, just as voluntary drunkenness or many psychological conditions which don't reach the level of legal insanity, often negate specific intent and morph the crimes for which you are culpable into a lesser included charge which only requires general intent.

1st degree murder is generally seen as a specific intent crime. 2nd degree murder is not. But good luck showing that in this case.

Thank you, this was very interesting. (And informed, which probably is against Cafe rules.)

 

[unofan]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Thank you, this was very interesting. (And informed, which probably is against Cafe rules.)

and full of typos..I know I was somewhat out of it due to the record heat and whatnot, but good lord was that horrendously written. Let me try again:

It's not that it precludes premeditation, but it could preclude the legal responsibility for it. Again, this varies by state, but the bar exam answer is that certain crimes are traditionally classified as "specific intent" crimes while others (the vast majority, in fact) are "general intent crimes." Specific intent crimes require the state to not only prove you intentionally or willfully shot the gun, but shot the gun with the intent to do X. Diminished capacity, such as voluntary drunkenness or many psychological conditions which don't reach the level of legal insanity, often negate specific intent and morph the crimes for which you are culpable into a lesser included charge which only requires general intent. So, for instance, attempted murder becomes assault with a deadly weapon. (side note: involuntary drunkenness, such as being slipped a roofie, or being a somnambulist generally negate all moral culpability for the crime. At least for bar exam purposes - and yes, the bar loves its somnambulist questions).

1st degree murder (sometimes known informally as "murder +") is often deemed a specific intent crime because the state has to prove not only murder but the additional aggravating factors (premeditation, depraved heart, cop killer, felony murder) even though the latter two aren't really "intent" related. 2nd degree murder (informally known as "common law murder" or just "murder") is always a general intent crime.

But good luck showing diminished capacity in this case. Generally speaking the longer the planning, the less likely you are to show you lacked the intent or were somehow hindred in your ability to determine right from wrong.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Watching video of the shooter today in court made me think of one thing: A sleep-deprived chemical engineer trying to make it through his 3:00 lecture after staying up all night writing a Unit Ops report. The student's brain being completely drained after long stretches of intense thought. I speak from experience.

This kid looks like he's been up for a few nights straight after fully realizing the brevity of the situation and how his once promising life is over. It's like this completely blindsided him as if he expected a different result. For a fraction of a second while watching the video, I actually pitied him.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

If anything, I think he was drained by the whole situation itself, and not comprehending what is going to (probably) happen to him. Months of planning, his plan was a relative "success," plus all the questioning by the police, and lack of sleep.....

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

I think he fully comprehends what is going to happen to him. He's probably near-genius in terms of his intelligence. He gets it and while I agree the questioning is probably exhausting, he already looks like he's haunted by the demons of what he's done.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

I think he fully comprehends what is going to happen to him. He's probably near-genius in terms of his intelligence. He gets it and while I agree the questioning is probably exhausting, he already looks like he's haunted by the demons of what he's done.

Unless I hear him give some statements, I don't think he's haunted at all. I don't necessarily think he takes/took "pleasure" in his crimes, but I don't think his crimes weigh on his conscience. Given his intelligence, he knew the results. He knew what it would look like. He might have even imagined how it felt.

 

[Proud2baLaker]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

http://news.yahoo.com/alleged-colorado-gunmans-family-stands-son-205325000--abc-news-topstories.html

So, after the earlier crap with ABC news this wouldnt suprise me at all. According to Holmes mother that line "You have the right person" is completely out of context. She said that to an ABC news producer who called her (she had yet to hear anything from police that her son was arrested for this and Mosk was calling her while she was still asleep). This is how she says it went:

He [Mosk] asked if I was Arlene Holmes and if my son was James Holmes, who lives in Aurora, Colorado. I answered yes, you have the right person. I was referring to myself. I asked him to tell me why he was calling and he told me about a shooting in Aurora. He asked for a comment. I told him I could not comment because I did not know if the person he was talking about was my son and I would need to find out

The producer, Mosk, of course claims that he told her that her son was the shooter and that is when she said the quote. There is no recording of the phone call at all. She certainly could be backtracking but at this point due to some sloppy "journalism" from this producer we will never know.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

This kid looks like he's been up for a few nights straight after fully realizing the brevity of the situation and how his once promising life is over. It's like this completely blindsided him as if he expected a different result. For a fraction of a second while watching the video, I actually pitied him.

I think it's possible to pity him for his wasted life and for his torment to come, even while fully believing that he has that torment coming and that he deserves no better.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Maine police stop potential copycat...

<object id="flashObj" width="480" height="270" classid="clsid:<param name="movie" value="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1&isUI=1" /><param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF" /><param name="flashVars" value="videoId=1750291014001&playerID=1684512073001&playerKey=AQ~~,AAAACC1lJjE~,eO0k1bjplevyL8YPi3NQccQnZmHFkpb9&domain=embed&dynamicStreaming=true" /><param name="base" value="http://admin.brightcove.com" /><param name="seamlesstabbing" value="false" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="swLiveConnect" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1&isUI=1" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" flashVars="videoId=1750291014001&playerID=1684512073001&playerKey=AQ~~,AAAACC1lJjE~,eO0k1bjplevyL8YPi3NQccQnZmHFkpb9&domain=embed&dynamicStreaming=true" base="http://admin.brightcove.com" name="flashObj" width="480" height="270" seamlesstabbing="false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" swLiveConnect="true" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"></embed></object>

BIDDEFORD, Maine (NEWS CENTER) -- State Police say Timothy Courtois was driving 112mph on the Maine Turnpike with his emergency flashers on, when an officer pulled him over Sunday morning. State Police Spokesman Steve McCausland says they found an AK-47 assault weapon, four handguns and several boxes of ammunition, in Courtois' car.

State Police say that during routine questioning at the stop, Courtois threw some red flags in his behavior. Among them, police say he had purchased the black Ford Mustang he was pulled over in the day after the shooting. Police say Courtois told them he planned to modify the vehicle so it could outrun police in a chase.

Courtois told police he was on his way to Derry, New Hampshire to shoot a former employer.

McCausland says police then searched Courtois's home, at 344 Elm Street in Biddeford, and found several additional guns, a machine gun, and thousands of rounds of ammunition.

Also found in his car were newspaper clippings about the shooting at the Colorado movie theater. Police say that Courtois told them he had attended "The Dark Knight Rises" on Saturday night at Cinemagic Theater in Saco, with a loaded gun in his backpack. Police tell us that the guns found in the car are the same kind of guns used in the Colorado shooting.

Impressive arsenal

 

[joecct]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Not familiar with Maine law, but does possession of all those weapons constitute a crime?

 

[Priceless]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Not familiar with Maine law, but does possession of all those weapons constitute a crime?

No idea. Holmes didn't commit a crime until he pulled the trigger.

ETA: All this guy has been charged with is criminal speeding and having a concealed weapon.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Not familiar with Maine law, but does possession of all those weapons constitute a crime?

Don't know, but saying he was going to shoot someone probably gives them all they need to get at least something on him.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

I'm not going to pass judgement until someone from the NRA gives me the important facts, like how much money he saved by being able to buy all that ammo in bulk.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

Don't know, but saying he was going to shoot someone probably gives them all they need to get at least something on him.

Just saying you are going to kill someone is not a crime.