Project Management

[MichVandal]

In the consulting firms, the expectation is OT for everyone. There's a set amount that's expected plus “whatever it takes to get the job done.” Pay is yearly, not hourly so it doesn't matter one way or the other how many hours you work so long as you meet the minimum expectation. I hired a former elementary school teacher as a member of the testing team. She struggled to wrap her head around the fact that she wasn't getting paid for hours worked over 40. I'd made the expectation clear when she was hired and it became a problem so she didn’t last long. So who's at fault here?

Me, and I made two mistakes. The first was not fully understanding that someone's mindset for work was not in line with mine or what the firm's requirements were. The second was in not communicating to her in a way that would allow her to internalize the commitment she was signing up for.

There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to this topic, only situations where expectations of work/life balance are not aligned.

Since this subject is still going- who benefits by all of the extra work?

Are your teams working extra because someone overpromised some delivery? Is it bad planning? Are people being paid competitively- as in can someone get a job somewhere else getting the same, but just working 40 hrs a week?

You say that there's no OT pay, but someone is benefitting by 60 hour work weeks. Has to be, or it would not be needed/required.

 

[Scarlet]

I've been reading this thread with interest. My title is Program Manager. I work on an Integrated Marketing Communications team. Our team is part of the larger Global Brand & Communications department for a Fortune 100 company. In the department we have, in addition to my team, a Brand Strategy team, Internal Communications, Public and Media Relations, and Creative Services. The head of my team is very fond of describing our role as being the hub of a wheel, and we manage/integrate the spokes. It's my role to build a comms team after the Brand Strategy team writes a creative or assignment brief and then bring a program to life.

I'm responsible for event operations and logistics as well. So, my role means I travel (when we traveled), it means if we have a signage installation I have to be in the office on a weekend to oversee it. I was in the office at 6:30am one day last week because we were doing a video shoot and it was my job to coordinate with Facilities and Security to make it happen. I've worked weekends, I've worked nights, I've even worked holidays. Because that's part of my job responsibilities. As I'm an exempt employee, I have been offered comp time. I don't mind it at all because it has given me the opportunity to travel and meet some amazing people. During our time as a sponsor of the US Olympic Team, I was pretty much an athlete handler as well.

I do need to keep track of a lot, do a lot of follow up and chasing. I basically represent my comms team to my internal business partner and represent my internal business partner to my comms team.

I remember a few years ago talking to the former head of our team during drinks after his going away party (that I had to manage). I told him I had seen a Facebook post asking what your "elevator speech" was. I thought about it and came up with mine. It's four words. I get shit done. That's basically what a project manager does.

 

[JF_Gophers]

I definitely wouldn't take a job where 60 hrs was normal. There is no pay I'd accept for that schedule. Because it wouldn't be worth it to my mental health or my family.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

I definitely wouldn't take a job where 60 hrs was normal. There is no pay I'd accept for that schedule. Because it wouldn't be worth it to my mental health or my family.

Me either.

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

Since this subject is still going- who benefits by all of the extra work?

The man benefits. The man always benefits

Are your teams working extra because someone overpromised some delivery? Is it bad planning? Are people being paid competitively- as in can someone get a job somewhere else getting the same, but just working 40 hrs a week?

These aren't my teams anymore, I'm in my semi-retirement career -- I've hung out a shingle as an independent. But I admit I've been there before and it's rarely one thing that's a root cause. The last time I found myself in this situation the client set an arbitrary date that was based on what the CFO dictated from a capital spend perspective. My approach was to communicate that yes, this was arbitrary (and dumb) and explain why, but then talk about why it was important. Next, I engaged the team in a planning activity to get their buy-in and commitment on how we were going to do the impossible. By the end everyone, including me, was ground to a nub, but we got it done (Yay us!). I resolved that the follow on project was not going to be a repeat, so I took the team through a planning exercise along with the marketing team. We used Agile metrics collected from the first project on how many story points/sprint we could crank out. We then told the marketing people they had only so much in the way of story point "currency" to spend on features for the upcoming release. It all went wonderfully and no one had to kill themselves. So my takeaway is that management and PMs can shit all over their people but if the people believe that management and PMs hear and act on their concerns, everyone moves forward for the benefit of everyone. I sense that in your situation management shits on you then shits on you again. That's bad.

No one was paid any more for their superhuman efforts but they did get a project tchotchke.

I've seen a lot of bad planning that results in extra effort needed to save the day. I've gotten much better at planning over my career; that and communicating expectations upward to protect the team. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, you're dealt a lousy hand and you play it the best you can. But all this is different from the vibe I'm picking up from you.

You say that there's no OT pay, but someone is benefitting by 60 hour work weeks. Has to be, or it would not be needed/required.

The man wins. The man always wins. Though some of the people came out of that crucible with skills they would never have learned otherwise and were able to parlay this experience into other higher paying opportunities.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Manage risks and people effectively, escalate judiciously and as soon as there is a pattern of issues or problems with a resource, and the rest will generally fall into place. Budget and schedule slippage is usually due to ongoing blockers caused by stakeholders who either aren't fully engaged/interested, don't know what they want (which leads to requirements that are too vague and causes scope creep), and/or can't deliver something the team needs in a timely manner. Sometimes it is due to a client's inefficient business processes and legacy technology platforms bogging down the team's ability to perform and deliver. Rarely have I seen a team brought down by incompetent technical consultants, but I do have a rather narrow technology niche that is occupied by a lot of smart and knowledgeable people, so I can't speak to other platforms or areas of expertise.

As for OT always being expected in consulting, that has not been my experience, but I imagine it varies from practice to practice. My firm usually doesn't want people pulling OT because our MSAs generally stipulate that all work will be performed during standard business hours and that any OT must be authorized by the client. Otherwise the firm can't charge the OT back to the client so the firm would end up eating the cost, which obviously fcks up the PM's precious budget.

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

Manage risks and people effectively, escalate judiciously and as soon as there is a pattern of issues or problems with a resource, and the rest will generally fall into place. Budget and schedule slippage is usually due to ongoing blockers caused by stakeholders who either aren't fully engaged/interested, don't know what they want (which leads to requirements that are too vague and causes scope creep), and/or can't deliver something the team needs in a timely manner. Sometimes it is due to a client's inefficient business processes and legacy technology platforms bogging down the team's ability to perform and deliver. Rarely have I seen a team brought down by incompetent technical consultants, but I do have a rather narrow technology niche that is occupied by a lot of smart and knowledgeable people, so I can't speak to other platforms or areas of expertise.

As for OT always being expected in consulting, that has not been my experience, but I imagine it varies from practice to practice. My firm usually doesn't want people pulling OT because our MSAs generally stipulate that all work will be performed during standard business hours and that any OT must be authorized by the client. Otherwise the firm can't charge the OT back to the client so the firm would end up eating the cost, which obviously fcks up the PM's precious budget.

Well put. You used far fewer words than I did and said it more clearly.

 

[Swansong]

Gotta be really careful about that in my environment. If you are charging to a USG charge number then charging hours you didn't work is timecard fraud and not charging hours you did work is even worse because the FAR police come after you for anticompetitive practices (you're essentially bribing the government).

I know that's not what you meant, but you have to be really careful, you can't just move hours around and balance things out.

If you're just charging your company overhead, that's between you and your timecard god. My company would go nuclear on any manager who approved that.

In that case I'm very glad I work for a private company (a hospital). Our CIO explicitly approved this some time ago.

 

[MichVandal]

The man benefits. The man always benefits


These aren't my teams anymore, I'm in my semi-retirement career -- I've hung out a shingle as an independent. But I admit I've been there before and it's rarely one thing that's a root cause. The last time I found myself in this situation the client set an arbitrary date that was based on what the CFO dictated from a capital spend perspective. My approach was to communicate that yes, this was arbitrary (and dumb) and explain why, but then talk about why it was important. Next, I engaged the team in a planning activity to get their buy-in and commitment on how we were going to do the impossible. By the end everyone, including me, was ground to a nub, but we got it done (Yay us!). I resolved that the follow on project was not going to be a repeat, so I took the team through a planning exercise along with the marketing team. We used Agile metrics collected from the first project on how many story points/sprint we could crank out. We then told the marketing people they had only so much in the way of story point "currency" to spend on features for the upcoming release. It all went wonderfully and no one had to kill themselves. So my takeaway is that management and PMs can **** all over their people but if the people believe that management and PMs hear and act on their concerns, everyone moves forward for the benefit of everyone. I sense that in your situation management ****s on you then ****s on you again. That's bad.

No one was paid any more for their superhuman efforts but they did get a project tchotchke.

I've seen a lot of bad planning that results in extra effort needed to save the day. I've gotten much better at planning over my career; that and communicating expectations upward to protect the team. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, you're dealt a lousy hand and you play it the best you can. But all this is different from the vibe I'm picking up from you.


The man wins. The man always wins. Though some of the people came out of that crucible with skills they would never have learned otherwise and were able to parlay this experience into other higher paying opportunities.

Thanks for the explanation.

That's not at all what is happening to me- I've never been asked to routinely work extra. Once a few years, but it hasn't happened for at least a decade. Heck, I've not even had to test at 2-4am for 12 years.

My issue seems to be more how my company trains PMs and how they work. Combine that with managers who are more interested in meeting times vs. doing a great job- and corners get "cut." Finally, let marketing decide what should and should not be in something because of dollars, and you see my company in the news reasonably often.

The frustrating part is that it's not changed in the 29 years I've been there- for some reason, the problems are never actually worked out, and new processes are made up for the sake of making them up- which just adds to more stuff that has to be done that's not actually in the project's interest.

I admit to be very lucky WRT work-life and am very thankful for that. Whenever there have been an emergency, leaving the next day has never been a problem. And taking a vacation has never actually been a problem (it's such not a problem that I'm happy to give up 1/20 of my pay to get another week).

edit- BTW, I bet my company is a nightmare for consultants. Although, we are really spending a lot of money on hired engineering (which I also dispise)

 

[dxmnkd316]

Maybe I’m a sociopath, but I see nothing wrong with what that guy posted nor his satisfaction from being part of that team. We’re exempt employees. This is what the job requires (at times). If your priorities don’t align or your other commitments prevent you from being able to contribute at that level, no problem - I wish you all the luck in a different career path. I’m not blessed with the right capabilities to be an NFL quarterback, but I deal with that. If you can’t work weekends when there is a team of 3000 people depending on your progress, then you just don’t have the right capability to help design new airplanes. It’s not a character flaw - just a question of compatibility.

Maybe. I just think the hustle culture "Your life for The Shareholders" is a fucking scam that's been ingrained into our work ethic baseline for 40 years. I won't do it anymore. It's toxic. If you require people to work weekends regularly, then it's been improperly staffed.

YMMV.

 

[dxmnkd316]

We have attrition rate north of 40% right now so…lol

JFC... I thought we were bad in my division at like 30%

 

[LynahFan]

Maybe. I just think the hustle culture "Your life for The Shareholders" is a fucking scam that's been ingrained into our work ethic baseline for 40 years. I won't do it anymore. It's toxic. If you require people to work weekends regularly, then it's been improperly staffed.

YMMV.

I also should have clarified that everyone below director gets paid “straight time” for every hour over 40 per week, so it’s at least a value proposition and not slave labor. We’re also a relatively new site, so plenty of people have hired in based on their prior California/Seattle/DC salaries and Florida cost of living and no state income tax, so most of our employees are doing just fine relative to industry - we get worried when attrition goes above ~8%.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

JFC... I thought we were bad in my division at like 30%

Shareholder value man…drive down costs. Don’t backfill people who leave, put same amount of work on fewer people…burn them all out. I can’t imagine it saves any money in the end

 

[dxmnkd316]

I also should have clarified that everyone below director gets paid “straight time” for every hour over 40 per week, so it’s at least a value proposition and not slave labor. We’re also a relatively new site, so plenty of people have hired in based on their prior California/Seattle/DC salaries and Florida cost of living and no state income tax, so most of our employees are doing just fine relative to industry - we get worried when attrition goes above ~8%.

That cushions the blow. Getting paid extra for OT even if not at OT rates is better than free.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Shareholder value man…drive down costs. Don’t backfill people who leave, put same amount of work on fewer people…burn them all out. I can’t imagine it saves any money in the end

That sounds familiar....

I know there was a meeting recently with our division management about the high turnover rate. It wasn't good.

 

[St. Clown]

I also should have clarified that everyone below director gets paid “straight time” for every hour over 40 per week, so it’s at least a value proposition and not slave labor. We’re also a relatively new site, so plenty of people have hired in based on their prior California/Seattle/DC salaries and Florida cost of living and no state income tax, so most of our employees are doing just fine relative to industry - we get worried when attrition goes above ~8%.

Overtime isn’t paid at the OT RATES for hourly employees? If yes, how is that legal?

 

[Kepler]

Shareholder value man…drive down costs. Don’t backfill people who leave, put same amount of work on fewer people…burn them all out. I can’t imagine it saves any money in the end

Harvard MBAs brought that down from Mount Wall Street to Main Street, bless their hearts.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Overtime isn’t paid at the OT RATES for hourly employees? If yes, how is that legal?

Wouldn't this be considered incentive pay of some sort? As long as they're exempt, the corporation isn't required to pay them OT, but they can.

 

[St. Clown]

Wouldn't this be considered incentive pay of some sort? As long as they're exempt, the corporation isn't required to pay them OT, but they can.

If you’re hourly, you’re non-exempt. Perhaps i
misread the meaning for LynahFan, and he meant that exempt employees were being paid extra for their time.

 

[dxmnkd316]

If you’re hourly, you’re non-exempt. Perhaps i
misread the meaning for LynahFan, and he meant that exempt employees were being paid extra for their time.

Right. My understanding was they were paying exempt employees for OT