Project Management

[dxmnkd316]

What is your actual scope of work?

My company uses the term "Project Engineer" instead of "Project Manager," and it can include everyone from MS Project jockeys, to people putting together change packages for Technical/Cost Review Boards, to people babysitting the Risk Management process, or, in the case of small (<$10M) IRAD/CRAD projects, the overall lead could be a Project Engineer rather than a Program Manager (PM). Our "Project Engineers" are basically PMs-in-training who actually do one aspect of program management, as opposed to the PM who has responsibility for all aspects.

That's what we do as well. I can't recall an instance of straight up project managers in my corporate division. The PE has the responsibility of managing the schedule, scope, budget but they also have the responsibility of ensuring compliance with our internal engineering standards which is why they require an engineering degree. You'll essentially only see chemical and mechanical hired as PEs. As you mentioned, there's obviously the team management, communication, risk mgmt, etc. as well.

Our PEs run all projects from around $100k up to the half-billion-dollar monstrosities.

 

[dxmnkd316]

4) Never ask a team member to do something you aren't willing to do yourself. I've sat in requirements meetings and taken notes to help out the analysts. I've worked nights and weekends when I had little to do simply because I'd ask the team to grind one out for me. None of these things are necessarily part of my job description but if you demonstrate you don't feel you're better than them, the team will respond when you ask them to do grunt work.

True, as long as you add the caveat that it's limited to tasks you're capable of doing.

But if I ask my team members to work weekends, I'll be there as well. Buying lunch goes a very, very long way. ANd not just for the engineering team, we've done it for the entire team: manufacturing, project, construction, trades. Pizza is cheap and very few people will turn it down.

 

[dxmnkd316]

I would also suggest to know your technical limits. So that the team does not have to spend time explaining to you every single little detail.

As for "is that fair" - I suppose it is, but can't really picture a good PM.

I really do think this means you've never had a good PM then. We've had PMs that go from greenfield to 10x existing capacity in six months while managing a nine-figure budget across several countries. Without a great PM, that will never happen. I've had projects where an entire building's control system was fried and we re-spec'd, designed, installed, and commissioned over a dozen reactor systems in a month. That doesn't happen without someone overseeing the project effectively. (Which isn't to say I'm a great PM, I've got a long way to go)

 

[MichVandal]

I meant is that a fair summary of your concerns, not is the interaction fair. Fairness is what works.

So don't just know my limits but do some reading so I'm not wasting their time? Got it. Is it okay / welcome to take subject matter experts aside and ask them what resources they think I would find useful? You know one of the biggest obstacles to learning about what you don't know is you don't even know what you don't know.

This is good feedback, thank you.

Seems like a good idea- the hard part is when the PM is the one that *has* to make the presentation to management, and has no real choice but to be have some kind of detailed knowledge. Unless the *has to present* can delegate to the team experts.

 

[aparch]

Configuration Management.

*Construction Management slinks slowly away*

I'm subscribing to this thread just for the pointers though. Thought about getting my PMP to accent my Construction Management degree... as someone pretending to be a Civil Engineer, not having a PE is a chicane in the rat race of life.

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

True, as long as you add the caveat that it's limited to tasks you're capable of doing.

But if I ask my team members to work weekends, I'll be there as well. Buying lunch goes a very, very long way. ANd not just for the engineering team, we've done it for the entire team: manufacturing, project, construction, trades. Pizza is cheap and very few people will turn it down.

Completely agree.

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

Every project I've run that required daily standups involved two steps:

1. Running down task list for updates
2. Asking each person what they plan to do that day and if they anticipated issues

The first question would identify current road blocks, the second would identify anticipated ones, and by requiring everyone to sound off on part 2, the wallflowers have to speak up. Typically they'd take 20-30 minutes first thing in the morning. A lot of these were the "drop literally everything you're doing and work on this until it's done". That's how we got telehealth stood up in less than a week at the beginning of the pandemic.

This is really good. I've done generic standups as well but like your approach.

 

[LynahFan]

Completely agree.

Absolutely. During early, turbulent days of one program I worked, we did 6 months of “mandatory “ Saturdays. Mandatory was a bit of a bluff, because we couldn’t afford to fire anybody. On those Saturdays, the PM and his staff (all VPs and 2nd level Directors) would do nothing but walk around to say hello, thank you for being here today, and hand out these “weekend warrior” poker chips with the project logo on them. The chips probably cost less than a dime when bought in bulk - but the engineers loved them. 4 years later when I left the program, many many people still had those chips proudly displayed in their cubes.

You don’t have to be there doing the work, but you do have to be there.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Absolutely. During early, turbulent days of one program I worked, we did 6 months of “mandatory “ Saturdays. Mandatory was a bit of a bluff, because we couldn’t afford to fire anybody. On those Saturdays, the PM and his staff (all VPs and 2nd level Directors) would do nothing but walk around to say hello, thank you for being here today, and hand out these “weekend warrior” poker chips with the project logo on them. The chips probably cost less than a dime when bought in bulk - but the engineers loved them. 4 years later when I left the program, many many people still had those chips proudly displayed in their cubes.

You don’t have to be there doing the work, but you do have to be there.

That said, it's also important not to be this fucking guy:
https://twitter.com/hadip/status/1426587396343099397?s=20

Occasional weekends are fine. But I take issue with the idea that it should be expected. Perhaps that's a topic for the antiwork thread...

 

[LynahFan]

That said, it's also important not to be this fucking guy:
https://twitter.com/hadip/status/1426587396343099397?s=20

Occasional weekends are fine. But I take issue with the idea that it should be expected. Perhaps that's a topic for the antiwork thread...

Maybe I’m a sociopath, but I see nothing wrong with what that guy posted nor his satisfaction from being part of that team. We’re exempt employees. This is what the job requires (at times). If your priorities don’t align or your other commitments prevent you from being able to contribute at that level, no problem - I wish you all the luck in a different career path. I’m not blessed with the right capabilities to be an NFL quarterback, but I deal with that. If you can’t work weekends when there is a team of 3000 people depending on your progress, then you just don’t have the right capability to help design new airplanes. It’s not a character flaw - just a question of compatibility.

 

[MichVandal]

Maybe I’m a sociopath, but I see nothing wrong with what that guy posted nor his satisfaction from being part of that team. We’re exempt employees. This is what the job requires (at times). If your priorities don’t align or your other commitments prevent you from being able to contribute at that level, no problem - I wish you all the luck in a different career path. I’m not blessed with the right capabilities to be an NFL quarterback, but I deal with that. If you can’t work weekends when there is a team of 3000 people depending on your progress, then you just don’t have the right capability to help design new airplanes. It’s not a character flaw - just a question of compatibility.

When I see that kind of suggestion, I'm so happy that I'm retiring soon.

If you really want people to work 6/7 days, pay them 6/5 wages. It's amazing that people can be fooled into working more just for a tiny piece of plastic, but that won't last long if it's abused, and it is constantly abused. Especially with the whole Tom Sawyer/Huck Finn BS about being an honor to work. Life isn't work. Work is to support life.

What was really funny are the people who do that, and then stay at work for extra hours literally doing nothing. Just for the appearance of working.

Sorry about the tangent.

 

[Kepler]

*Construction Management slinks slowly away*

I'm subscribing to this thread just for the pointers though. Thought about getting my PMP to accent my Construction Management degree... as someone pretending to be a Civil Engineer, not having a PE is a chicane in the rat race of life.

I've seen construction management projects that are 100x more complex and sophisticated than anything in the software world, and any time people pull out blueprints I get very quiet and feel overawed. You're absolutely welcome -- your experience and knowledge fit right in.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

When I see that kind of suggestion, I'm so happy that I'm retiring soon.

If you really want people to work 6/7 days, pay them 6/5 wages. It's amazing that people can be fooled into working more just for a tiny piece of plastic, but that won't last long if it's abused, and it is constantly abused. Especially with the whole Tom Sawyer/Huck Finn BS about being an honor to work. Life isn't work. Work is to support life.

What was really funny are the people who do that, and then stay at work for extra hours literally doing nothing. Just for the appearance of working.

Sorry about the tangent.

Yeah this is why so many people are changing jobs right now. Paid to work 40 but expected to work a lot more. Not ideal for many people

 

[MichVandal]

*Construction Management slinks slowly away*

I'm subscribing to this thread just for the pointers though. Thought about getting my PMP to accent my Construction Management degree... as someone pretending to be a Civil Engineer, not having a PE is a chicane in the rat race of life.

So I assume you are a larger construction manager....

Question for you- are parts of the project dependent on the weather? IIRC, I've seen some bridge constructions that kind of required a specific temp to get it all expand together, so I'm extending that to other projects.... Assuming that you do- how do you deal with delays that move some of the work to a period where the conditions don't support the plans?

 

[Swansong]

I have no issues with pulling crazy (unpaid) OT for specific projects or tasks, so long as I'm not hassled about leaving early or taking time off as needed. If you join that specific team for that specific project, you know what you're getting into and don't really have a right to whine. But if your job is a normal 9-5 and then somehow ends up as a 7-10, 6-7 days/week thing then yeah, you totally have a gripe.

Last summer after a ransomware attack I ended up working like 130-140 hours over the next two weeks. our server team worked much, much more. But it's ok because I spent the next 3-4 weeks checking out by like 2 PM every day and my boss didn't charge PTO for 2-3 days I took off. Did it average out? Close enough.

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

Yeah this is why so many people are changing jobs right now. Paid to work 40 but expected to work a lot more. Not ideal for many people

That said, it's also important not to be this fucking guy:
https://twitter.com/hadip/status/142...343099397?s=20

Occasional weekends are fine. But I take issue with the idea that it should be expected. Perhaps that's a topic for the antiwork thread...

Maybe I’m a sociopath, but I see nothing wrong with what that guy posted nor his satisfaction from being part of that team. We’re exempt employees. This is what the job requires (at times). If your priorities don’t align or your other commitments prevent you from being able to contribute at that level, no problem - I wish you all the luck in a different career path. I’m not blessed with the right capabilities to be an NFL quarterback, but I deal with that. If you can’t work weekends when there is a team of 3000 people depending on your progress, then you just don’t have the right capability to help design new airplanes. It’s not a character flaw - just a question of compatibility.

In the consulting firms, the expectation is OT for everyone. There's a set amount that's expected plus “whatever it takes to get the job done.” Pay is yearly, not hourly so it doesn't matter one way or the other how many hours you work so long as you meet the minimum expectation. I hired a former elementary school teacher as a member of the testing team. She struggled to wrap her head around the fact that she wasn't getting paid for hours worked over 40. I'd made the expectation clear when she was hired and it became a problem so she didn’t last long. So who's at fault here?

Me, and I made two mistakes. The first was not fully understanding that someone's mindset for work was not in line with mine or what the firm's requirements were. The second was in not communicating to her in a way that would allow her to internalize the commitment she was signing up for.

There is no right or wrong answer when it comes to this topic, only situations where expectations of work/life balance are not aligned.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Consulting often gets paid for those hours. My issue now is my firm isn’t consulting, they don’t pay as consulting and they want the hours worked.

 

[Kepler]

checking out by like 2 PM every day and my boss didn't charge PTO for 2-3 days I took off. Did it average out? Close enough.

Gotta be really careful about that in my environment. If you are charging to a USG charge number then charging hours you didn't work is timecard fraud and not charging hours you did work is even worse because the FAR police come after you for anticompetitive practices (you're essentially bribing the government).

I know that's not what you meant, but you have to be really careful, you can't just move hours around and balance things out.

If you're just charging your company overhead, that's between you and your timecard god. My company would go nuclear on any manager who approved that.

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

Consulting often gets paid for those hours. My issue now is my firm isn’t consulting, they don’t pay as consulting and they want the hours worked.

Understood, and agree it's BS.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Understood, and agree it's BS.

We have attrition rate north of 40% right now so…lol