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POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

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Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

It won't work. People have been listening to those people for years. They won't change. They don't change. The only thing that changes them is time. And time moves slowly. We still had Jim Crow after slavery. For over 100 years. We still have racism after Jim Crow. For probably another 100 years. It will take a 100 years from now, maybe longer, to get over our fear of Muslims.

The only way the Dems win is to divide and conquer. Hillary didn't spend enough time on Democratic states because idiots thought Georgia, Nebraska, and Arizona were in play and REPUBLICANS had come out in favor of her. She got taken down by arrogance, and not by not listening to racist bigoted misogynistic morons.

Time to divide and conquer. Which is EXACTLY what Trump and the Republicans have done.

We will continue to lose if we think this way. You sound like sports fans who say "they didnt beat us we lost the game". They did beat us because the Dems lost site of the fact that people form their own opinions.

The Dems cant divide and conquer...their whole constituency is built on uniting. The Dems need to find a way to appeal to more than just coasts and a few midwest states or they are going to have problems.

They also need to find a way to get people to vote. This crap where only charismatic candidates get people to show up will be the death knell.
 
Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Tim Ryan (D-OH 13th), who unsuccessfully challenged Nancy Pelosi for the leadership of the house Dems, said a similar thing, calling the Democratic party too factionalized.

The party needs to realize who it needs to speak to, and who that is for the most part should be America's working class. Had the party focused nearly solely on an economic message my guess is Clinton would have won, and probably won handily. No, not the phony economic message Trump tried to put forth (bringing back coal and steel jobs, preventing anyone from moving jobs to Mexico, Viet Nam or some other ultra low wage nation) but one of reality and appeal to all of us who work for a living.

Within the working class (and the true middle class) there are men and women, young and old, whites and blacks, gays and straights, Christians, Muslims, Jews and atheists, and people from just about any other belief or demographic out there, other than those born with a silver spoon in their mouths (which is how to describe virtually anyone who is extremely wealthy since few rich people were ever poor). Appeal to the working class and even those who are better off financially but progressive in their thinking and beliefs will likely support you.

You can also appeal to people of different demographics without alienating people of another one. Clinton failed miserably in that regard. One only needed to look at the campaign literature that many of us left with voters as we went door-to-door. Everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING -- I left behind on door knobs all over Northeastern Ohio was subtly designed to appeal to African Americans, the LGBT community, or some other tiny (usually) minority. Like it or not, it turned off a lot of people who are not part of those subsets of Americans. Hillary might not have been able to win the white male vote, but ameliorating some of the losses would have won states like Ohio or Michigan, and she made less effort at appealing to white men than any Democratic candidate in history. She wrote off people like me, despite the fact that I supported her (starting out of course as a Bernie supporter) and many others like me would have had the party made the proper efforts and assessments. You can appeal to a white working class middle aged male on Cleveland's west side without appealing to whatever racist tendencies you think he may have been raised under. And if he votes for you and you win, you can continue to fight for a more inclusive society and to eventually erase as much of the bigotry in America that you can. You can't do a go d d amn thing (politically) when you lose.

This should be sent to the DNC every day until the midterms.
 
Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

I would like to take a moment and say that the last page of posts......I wish ALL of America could have a discussion such as this one. Despite our political differences, it has been CONstructive and we are listening to each other. We still disagree on some things, sure, but we are talking about those things in a very civil manner. I appreciate that.
 
Trump won, sure but how many of us think he is a moron? I won't advocate being kinder to racists or sexists. I do advocate listening to them and figuring out WHY they have those opinions and then present why that view is misguided, while being tolerant of that different view. As Handy said, if you come down on a person they will shut you out and go on the offensive.

Why does that only go one way, though? People have been using "lib" as an insult for my entire life. And let's not ignore the various slurs used towards minority groups, including women, who make up the Democratic base. Why do they get a free pass on talking down to others and stiggin' it but god forbid the dirty libs fight back.
 
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I don't think this is true. Racism still persists because it is The Other. But misogyny is largely over, because even the most braindead knuck has women in his life.

Note this is not to say there isn't still institutionalized sexism and that women are treated equally. Those problems are huge and most of them track back to iron age ideas in magic books. But the "hardwired" underlying assumptions about female inferiority are, I believe, dead except for some really old people and some really crazy Christian Al Qaeda types. And time's taking care of the former.

The same is true for the Phobes -- it's just about 25 years behind. (And for the same reason -- 1 in 20 of the Phobes' family members is gay. He just didn't know that before). As Khrushchev said, "we will bury you." Phobes' children will recoil at the memory of their bigoted fathers just as Segregationists' children do.

As I posted earlier, I absolutely disagree. People have had women in their lives since homo sapiens evolved. That hasn't kept women from being oppressed since that time.

The Omaha fishwrap ran a fairly innocuous column describing the phenomenon of men randomly asking women to smile for them. The reaction from about 1/3rd of men was 100% misogynistic. While that means 2/3rds of us had neutral or better responses top it, let's not claim it's anywhere close to eradicated.
 
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Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

We will continue to lose if we think this way. You sound like sports fans who say "they didnt beat us we lost the game". They did beat us because the Dems lost site of the fact that people form their own opinions.

The Dems cant divide and conquer...their whole constituency is built on uniting. The Dems need to find a way to appeal to more than just coasts and a few midwest states or they are going to have problems.

They also need to find a way to get people to vote. This crap where only charismatic candidates get people to show up will be the death knell.

You can't unite those people. You have to get your base out. The people that voted for Trump were never going to vote for Clinton. Period. You need to cut the rope and let them sink and concentrate on your Constituency. That's what Clinton failed on. She actually believed Republicans were voting for her in Georgia, Arizona, etc. She took the eye off the ball. Trump didn't get any massive quantities above Romney. Those folks are hopeless, racist, misogynistic. Just let them drown and build where you can.

If you want to actually be constructive find a way to destroy the Green party and meld it into the Dems. That will help. If you want to help get lazy *** Dems off the couch and to the polls. That will help. Trying to unite lunatics is a waste of energy.
 
Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

I don't think this is true. Racism still persists because it is The Other. But misogyny is largely over, because even the most braindead knuck has women in his life.

Note this is not to say there isn't still institutionalized sexism and that women are treated equally. Those problems are huge and most of them track back to iron age ideas in magic books. But the "hardwired" underlying assumptions about female inferiority are, I believe, dead except for some really old people and some really crazy Christian Al Qaeda types. And time's taking care of the former.

The same is true for the Phobes -- it's just about 25 years behind. (And for the same reason -- 1 in 20 of the Phobes' family members is gay. He just didn't know that before). As Khrushchev said, "we will bury you." Phobes' children will recoil at the memory of their bigoted fathers just as Segregationists' children do.

I don't get it Kep. This is EXACTLY what many on this forum were saying before Trump won enough votes to win in enough states, that there was NO WAY he could win because his support was all old white men. Look where that thinking and belief got us. You have to accept that you are an outlier in your true open mindedness. My guess is you turn away no opportunity to learn something or have a belief of yours challenged if you think it will lead to a better understanding of a topic. I'M not that open-minded and I'm a d am n sight more open-minded than a lot of people I know, many of whom I count among my friends or family. This country is teeming with knuckle draggers who believe that for a certain number of days every month a woman is fundamentally unable to act in a rational enough manner to be trusted or even expected to lead. Is this belief completely idiotic and offensive? Of course it is. But it most certainly exists. I am convinced that there isn't a mainstream MALE Democratic candidate who would not have won, even running the exact same campaign as Clinton ran. Far more people than you are comfortable admitting did not vote for her because of her gender. Sadly, those people come from all of the walks of life I pointed out (white, black, young, old etc) in my previous post.
 
Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Why does that only go one way, though? People have been using "lib" as an insult for my entire life. And let's not ignore the various slurs used towards minority groups, including women, who make up the Democratic base. Why do they get a free pass on talking down to others and stiggin' it but god forbid the dirty libs fight back.

They don't get a free pass. I will call out anyone that talks down to another person. In the end, one should acknowledge a different opinion. Doesn't mean you agree with it, or respect it; you are simply hearing that opinion out, and then (hopefully) discussing it in a rational manner, like we are doing here.
 
Why does that only go one way, though? People have been using "lib" as an insult for my entire life. And let's not ignore the various slurs used towards minority groups, including women, who make up the Democratic base. Why do they get a free pass on talking down to others and stiggin' it but god forbid the dirty libs fight back.

This is something I've been wondering for awhile. Why am I supposed to try and understand their views when they refuse to consider things like science?
 
Why does that only go one way, though? People have been using "lib" as an insult for my entire life. And let's not ignore the various slurs used towards minority groups, including women, who make up the Democratic base. Why do they get a free pass on talking down to others and stiggin' it but god forbid the dirty libs fight back.

I don't think it's like that. It's that the loudest and most crass voices on the other side are the ones you hear and react to as being representative, whether you were an R thinking all dems talk pure hatred like Rover or a D thinking all R's are bigoted screamers. Most people are fairly decent and considerate once you stop to talk AND listen.
 
This is something I've been wondering for awhile. Why am I supposed to try and understand their views when they refuse to consider things like science?

For this in particular, understand that it's an act performed for the sake of negotiation. I had a frank talk with a climate change denier in November who said basically, of course everyone knows climate change is happening, but if we all publicly agreed on that we'd have to then surrender our way of life to anti-combustion extremists like Albert Gore Jr. There's no moral middle ground between what we've got now and sacrificing everything to central planning, so denial is easier.
I expect all this to change very rapidly once renewables come along far enough to make sense to a capitalist. There is important work for both activists and investors in the meantime to lay the groundwork.
 
I don't think it's like that. It's that the loudest and most crass voices on the other side are the ones you hear and react to as being representative, whether you were an R thinking all dems talk pure hatred like Rover or a D thinking all R's are bigoted screamers. Most people are fairly decent and considerate once you stop to talk AND listen.

I guess i disagree to the extent that hate radio (Limbaugh, beck, et al) is nearly universally right wing in nature, and the left's attempt to do the same failed miserably. Though the old adage of supporters listening for 15 minutes and opponents listening for 30 could very well apply.

On the flip side, probably the same sort of phenomenon leads to comedy shows being liberal and their right wing equivalents to fail.
 
I guess i disagree to the extent that hate radio (Limbaugh, beck, et al) is nearly universally right wing in nature, and the left's attempt to do the same failed miserably. Though the old adage of supporters listening for 15 minutes and opponents listening for 30 could very well apply.

On the flip side, probably the same sort of phenomenon leads to comedy shows being liberal and their right wing equivalents to fail.
Good point; for some reason conservatives like (faux) red meat outrage and liberals are far better with sarcasm/parody. You'd think the latter would be more cutting and effective but it might do more self-harm in the long run - there's a real hatred of outspoken liberal celebrities with sharp tongues, nearly on par with the liberal rejection of Limbaugh. We should be tuning out all the ratings-chasers
 
Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

For this in particular, understand that it's an act performed for the sake of negotiation. I had a frank talk with a climate change denier in November who said basically, of course everyone knows climate change is happening, but if we all publicly agreed on that we'd have to then surrender our way of life to anti-combustion extremists like Albert Gore Jr. There's no moral middle ground between what we've got now and sacrificing everything to central planning, so denial is easier.
I expect all this to change very rapidly once renewables come along far enough to make sense to a capitalist. There is important work for both activists and investors in the meantime to lay the groundwork.

Exactly.
 
Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

For this in particular, understand that it's an act performed for the sake of negotiation. I had a frank talk with a climate change denier in November who said basically, of course everyone knows climate change is happening, but if we all publicly agreed on that we'd have to then surrender our way of life to anti-combustion extremists like Albert Gore Jr. There's no moral middle ground between what we've got now and sacrificing everything to central planning, so denial is easier.
I expect all this to change very rapidly once renewables come along far enough to make sense to a capitalist. There is important work for both activists and investors in the meantime to lay the groundwork.

when someone makes a game changing fuel cell, we are all off oil.

giddy up.
 
Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

The party needs to realize who it needs to speak to, and who that is for the most part should be America's working class. Had the party focused nearly solely on an economic message my guess is Clinton would have won, and probably won handily. No, not the phony economic message Trump tried to put forth (bringing back coal and steel jobs, preventing anyone from moving jobs to Mexico, Viet Nam or some other ultra low wage nation) but one of reality and appeal to all of us who work for a living.

I agree with this. If Hillary had spent the last month of the campaign hammering this point home, she would have been elected easily. Instead, all we heard from her was "Oh that Donald Trump, listen to all the nasty things he says about women, and Muslims, listen to how he yells". It was in her policy positions, on her website, but who goes looking for a website? Get out there and let people know what you're going to do for them.

Thing is, people liked the fact that Trump was yelling against the establishment, they liked that he wasn't politically correct.
 
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