POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

I don't know if I believe that. I know there are Christian Taliban who believe some Biblical idiocy to that effect, but those cretins can't be more than maybe 5% of the population. And I'll give you that there are still dinosaurs from their 80s and up who don't think a lady is up to it, but again... what... 5%?

Even among conservatives, and even among fundies, my impression is nobody believes gender matters. They hate Democratic women and spew sexist bilge about them, but that's because they're Democratic women.

TL;DR: the right has people who are sexist and misogynistic but those are only ways in which they express their partisanship and stupidity. They don't start from sexism. They just employ it because they lack imagination or empathy.

This sounds like a response posted to one of the liberal bedwetters (I was one of them, remember) who posted their fears about Clinton managing to blow the election as November 8th drew nearer. There are more people out there -- and more women out there -- than open-minded people like you want to believe exist who really think women are not up to being in high-powered decision making positions. It's high time we who ARE open-minded and know that leadership and quality come in all shapes and sizes and types come to grips that we live in a very effed up country right now and come up with ways to combat and neutralize the very large portion of America that is dumb enough to believe the dumb things they believe. If we continue to believe that Democrats and progressives and open-minded candidates lost (and have been losing) simply because they run poor campaigns or can't figure out how to craft a message we will continue to see the country on the same path we've all been witnessing for years now. We are in the decline of our society and it isn't only because Clinton ran an awful campaign. We are declining because too many of us are really like Trump speaks and unless and until we see that as plainly as we saw the final score of whatever college hockey game we paid attention to last night, we can kiss it all goodbye.

 

[mookie1995]

80s stylists should be brought before The Hague ICJ.

Coming from the guy who gets moist for Rachel maddow

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

I hope so, because right now all Flint is In Like is sh-t.

Too bad...elections have consequences and last I checked the people of Flint (and Michigan in general) were too lazy to be bothered to vote in their own self interests. This is what happens when you leave the party in power that poisons you and leave the presidential ballot blank because you just cant vote for Hillary even though she might actually try and save you.

This is what they wanted...they can choke on the lead.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

This sounds like a response posted to one of the liberal bedwetters (I was one of them, remember) who posted their fears about Clinton managing to blow the election as November 8th drew nearer. There are more people out there -- and more women out there -- than open-minded people like you want to believe exist who really think women are not up to being in high-powered decision making positions. It's high time we who ARE open-minded and know that leadership and quality come in all shapes and sizes and types come to grips that we live in a very effed up country right now and come up with ways to combat and neutralize the very large portion of America that is dumb enough to believe the dumb things they believe. If we continue to believe that Democrats and progressives and open-minded candidates lost (and have been losing) simply because they run poor campaigns or can't figure out how to craft a message we will continue to see the country on the same path we've all been witnessing for years now. We are in the decline of our society and it isn't only because Clinton ran an awful campaign. We are declining because too many of us are really like Trump speaks and unless and until we see that as plainly as we saw the final score of whatever college hockey game we paid attention to last night, we can kiss it all goodbye.

This is 100% spot on. The Left is too arrogant to believe that half the country isnt where they are at on many of these issues and they talk down tot he people who arent. (myself included) We point out and shame the people who maybe have racist thoughts, or who find gays immoral, or find trans people kind of creepy, or women arent smart enough to hold office or think the Earth is 6000 years old. Obviously in the long term history will prove all that stuff is ridiculous but we dont live in the future we live in the here and now...and there are millions of people (most of whom are not bad people) that believe some or all of that. Hell, I bet even all of us Progressives have something we think that would be considered a bit yucky...

Then there is Donald Trump. Trump watched as Hillary and the Left pointed and laughed at the "Knuckledraggers" and "Idiots" and he went the complete opposite way. You know why people didnt hold his feet to the fire over the racist and sexist rhetoric...it is because for many people one or more of the things he said somewhat match up with something they believe. He didnt run away from them or ignore them he took the hit for them. When I was working the Trump VIP Party one of the big money guys (the only one who tipped in an odd twist) said those exact words. These people believed Trump was out there taking bullets for them. That is why they dont care that he was lying his *** off and even admits it...because at least he didnt shame them for having non-mainstream beliefs.

I know the new thing on the Left is to a shine a light on bigotry and hate and make sure that everyone can see it but that isnt going to stop what is going on...in fact it most likely will make it worse. This isnt the 1980s where by making things public you can almost isolate someone in shame...there are millions of ways to communicate and now when you make it public all you do is make them a public figure that millions can rally behind. Plus you are backing them into a corner, which only makes them lash out more.

If the Democrats want to bring people into the 21st Century that is awesome and it will benefit everyone. You dont need to drag them by the hair though, how about showing as much compassion for the people who dont understand or who have legit beefs with such rapid change at the same time. Just because you are on the side of right doesnt give you carte blanche to shout down everyone else.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Meanwhile both Houses have now voted to repeal the ACA without replacement. January 27th will be the beginning of the end. I hope those Drumpfers in Kentucky are happy...this is what they wanted.

Elections have consequences...

“This is a critical first step toward delivering relief to Americans struggling under this law,” Speaker Ryan said on the House floor. He added that there would a replacement drafted “in the next couple of weeks” and ensured there would be “a stable transition period” but did not go into specifics. Ryan said at a press conference Thursday, “We’re not holding hard deadlines, only because we want to get it right.”

 

[burd]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Meanwhile both Houses have now voted to repeal the ACA without replacement. January 27th will be the beginning of the end. I hope those Drumpfers in Kentucky are happy...this is what they wanted.

Elections have consequences...

“This is a critical first step toward delivering relief to Americans struggling under this law,” Speaker Ryan said on the House floor. He added that there would a replacement drafted “in the next couple of weeks” and ensured there would be “a stable transition period” but did not go into specifics. Ryan said at a press conference Thursday, “We’re not holding hard deadlines, only because we want to get it right.”

They've been screaming "repeal!!" for 7 years, and they are only now sitting down to figure out something better?

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

This is 100% spot on. The Left is too arrogant to believe that half the country isnt where they are at on many of these issues and they talk down tot he people who aren't.

If the Democrats want to bring people into the 21st Century that is awesome and it will benefit everyone. You dont need to drag them by the hair though, how about showing as much compassion for the people who dont understand or who have legit beefs with such rapid change at the same time. Just because you are on the side of right doesnt give you carte blanche to shout down everyone else.

Boom. Nailed it. Shouting down people does not work. It makes you look like an arrogant prck and/or a fool. This goes for everyone, not just the left, btw.

 

[Rover]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Boom. Nailed it. Shouting down people does not work. It makes you look like an arrogant prck and/or a fool. This goes for everyone, not just the left, btw.

Sure seemed to work for Trump.

I have a different take. While not meaning it, you and Handy basically wrote that we should be kinder to racists and bigots until they come around. I'd rather not do that. My issue with the Dems is that they try to be all things to all people. They need to cut that out and focus on their supporters, much like the right has done.

If you ever read the speeches of people like Lincoln, FDR and Kennedy, not just the famous ones but all the rest, you'll find they're very partisan people. That's not a bad thing necessarily. It gives your side a reason to turn out. In a perfect world you could appeal to the left and the middle and the center-right, but in a perfect world Trump wouldn't about to take office. Obama and Hillary Clinton spent too much time trying to be post-partisan figures, not realizing that and 50 cents will get you a newspaper and not much else. The electorate doesn't value that anymore if they ever did. The modern day GOP both in Congress, statehouses, and the next President needs to be called out directly and by name when necessary as the scum sucking a holes that they are. Along with their supporters. Mealy mouthed national conservations aren't cutting it. A scorched Earth policy will. This is why I miss Howard Dean who understood this better than almost anybody else in the party.

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Trump won, sure but how many of us think he is a moron? I won't advocate being kinder to racists or sexists. I do advocate listening to them and figuring out WHY they have those opinions and then present why that view is misguided, while being tolerant of that different view. As Handy said, if you come down on a person they will shut you out and go on the offensive.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Trump won, sure but how many of us think he is a moron? I won't advocate being kinder to racists or sexists. I do advocate listening to them and figuring out WHY they have those opinions and then present why that view is misguided, while being tolerant of that different view. As Handy said, if you come down on a person they will shut you out and go on the offensive.

It won't work. People have been listening to those people for years. They won't change. They don't change. The only thing that changes them is time. And time moves slowly. We still had Jim Crow after slavery. For over 100 years. We still have racism after Jim Crow. For probably another 100 years. It will take a 100 years from now, maybe longer, to get over our fear of Muslims.

The only way the Dems win is to divide and conquer. Hillary didn't spend enough time on Democratic states because idiots thought Georgia, Nebraska, and Arizona were in play and REPUBLICANS had come out in favor of her. She got taken down by arrogance, and not by not listening to racist bigoted misogynistic morons.

Time to divide and conquer. Which is EXACTLY what Trump and the Republicans have done.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

I have a different take. While not meaning it, you and Handy basically wrote that we should be kinder to racists and bigots until they come around. I'd rather not do that. My issue with the Dems is that they try to be all things to all people. They need to cut that out and focus on their supporters, much like the right has done.

Tim Ryan (D-OH 13th), who unsuccessfully challenged Nancy Pelosi for the leadership of the house Dems, said a similar thing, calling the Democratic party too factionalized.

The party needs to realize who it needs to speak to, and who that is for the most part should be America's working class. Had the party focused nearly solely on an economic message my guess is Clinton would have won, and probably won handily. No, not the phony economic message Trump tried to put forth (bringing back coal and steel jobs, preventing anyone from moving jobs to Mexico, Viet Nam or some other ultra low wage nation) but one of reality and appeal to all of us who work for a living.

Within the working class (and the true middle class) there are men and women, young and old, whites and blacks, gays and straights, Christians, Muslims, Jews and atheists, and people from just about any other belief or demographic out there, other than those born with a silver spoon in their mouths (which is how to describe virtually anyone who is extremely wealthy since few rich people were ever poor). Appeal to the working class and even those who are better off financially but progressive in their thinking and beliefs will likely support you.

You can also appeal to people of different demographics without alienating people of another one. Clinton failed miserably in that regard. One only needed to look at the campaign literature that many of us left with voters as we went door-to-door. Everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING -- I left behind on door knobs all over Northeastern Ohio was subtly designed to appeal to African Americans, the LGBT community, or some other tiny (usually) minority. Like it or not, it turned off a lot of people who are not part of those subsets of Americans. Hillary might not have been able to win the white male vote, but ameliorating some of the losses would have won states like Ohio or Michigan, and she made less effort at appealing to white men than any Democratic candidate in history. She wrote off people like me, despite the fact that I supported her (starting out of course as a Bernie supporter) and many others like me would have had the party made the proper efforts and assessments. You can appeal to a white working class middle aged male on Cleveland's west side without appealing to whatever racist tendencies you think he may have been raised under. And if he votes for you and you win, you can continue to fight for a more inclusive society and to eventually erase as much of the bigotry in America that you can. You can't do a go d d amn thing (politically) when you lose.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Surrounded by Republicans at work, and trying to both effectively represent my beliefs but not offend anybody (or make my workday harder) I do stuff like the following. Some Hate Radio meme starts percolating through the office like "Planned Parenthood chops up live babies and sells the parts for profit argle bargle." I start by saying "the video that started the whole controversy was bunk" and point anybody who wants to a source. Of course as the person shifts their ground they're going to come up with a series of "but, stills." "Maybe that video is bunk, but still Planned Parenthood is a baby killing factory." "PP is actually a women's health provider and abortions are only a small part of the services they provide. Here are some of the others.." and then all the cancer screening etc that links up with the speaker's own life. "My aunt died of breast cancer." "I'm sorry for her family; PP does early screening that can catch that..."

Of course in most cases what's really behind this is hatred of abortion, and eventually it gets there. "Maybe PP does good stuff, but they do abortions too, and women who have abortions regret it and it ruins their lives." "Although there are a few cases of that, the vast majority of women do not regret their decision and in fact they go on and have families when the circumstances allow them to provide for their children." And so on. If the conversation eventually grounds in religion obviously I will not change their mind but I've given them the example of someone who engages with them, listens to them, and is respectful. For example, whenever anybody says "but as a Christian I believe..." I never follow up with "OK, but many Christians actually tolerate abortion in at least some circumstances..." because that will activate their fight or flight. I immediately drop it by saying "I respect your personal belief system; mine leads me to other conclusions for my personal life." Most believers will not, in fact, draw the equivalence between us -- they think they're right for everybody, not just them. But some are tolerant, and even those who are not now have a positive experience dealing with an atheist liberal, and the next time Hate Radio spews a garbage strawman about us they will think, "wait... that wasn't my experience at all..."

And that my friends is the Royal Road to Doubt, and the eventual freeing of that mind from ideological servitude.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Planned Parenthood was founded by a eugenicist. That's all you need to know.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Planned Parenthood was founded by a eugenicist. That's all you need to know.

Irrelevant.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Planned Parenthood was founded by a eugenicist. That's all you need to know.

VW was founded by Nazis. If you drive a Jetta you're Hitler.

But Flag does represent the handful of coworkers I have who I don't engage with at all. There is no positive that can possibly come out of that for either of us.

I'd be lying though if I didn't admit I secretly smile a bit when they go off the rails on whatever the latest Poutrage the Echo Chamber has fed them, because now the open-minded conservatives in my office have two examples to test drive for attitudes towards a current event: a paranoid screaming ally or a smart, respectful opponent.

I am glad there are Flags in the world. They make my work just a little easier and more fun.

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

It won't work. People have been listening to those people for years. They won't change. They don't change. The only thing that changes them is time. And time moves slowly. We still had Jim Crow after slavery. For over 100 years. We still have racism after Jim Crow. For probably another 100 years. It will take a 100 years from now, maybe longer, to get over our fear of Muslims.

The only way the Dems win is to divide and conquer. Hillary didn't spend enough time on Democratic states because idiots thought Georgia, Nebraska, and Arizona were in play and REPUBLICANS had come out in favor of her. She got taken down by arrogance, and not by not listening to racist bigoted misogynistic morons.

Time to divide and conquer. Which is EXACTLY what Trump and the Republicans have done.

Sadly, I have to agree on the racism point. This sounds odd but I am glad that the issue is back out in the open. For a while, people were afraid to say anything and now those same people are spouting off. I want to know where people stand. Hidden racism, for lack of a better phrase, is worse than blatant outspoken racism, IMO. I will stress that this applies to words not actions.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Sadly, I have to agree on the racism point. This sounds odd but I am glad that the issue is back out in the open. For a while, people were afraid to say anything and now those same people are spouting off. I want to know where people stand. Hidden racism, for lack of a better phrase, is worse than blatant outspoken racism, IMO. I will stress that this applies to words not actions.

Misogyny in this country is just as bad.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Misogyny in this country is just as bad.

I don't think this is true. Racism still persists because it is The Other. But misogyny is largely over, because even the most braindead knuck has women in his life.

Note this is not to say there isn't still institutionalized sexism and that women are treated equally. Those problems are huge and most of them track back to iron age ideas in magic books. But the "hardwired" underlying assumptions about female inferiority are, I believe, dead except for some really old people and some really crazy Christian Al Qaeda types. And time's taking care of the former.

The same is true for the Phobes -- it's just about 25 years behind. (And for the same reason -- 1 in 20 of the Phobes' family members is gay. He just didn't know that before). As Khrushchev said, "we will bury you." Phobes' children will recoil at the memory of their bigoted fathers just as Segregationists' children do.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Sadly, I have to agree on the racism point. This sounds odd but I am glad that the issue is back out in the open. For a while, people were afraid to say anything and now those same people are spouting off. I want to know where people stand. Hidden racism, for lack of a better phrase, is worse than blatant outspoken racism, IMO. I will stress that this applies to words not actions.

I agree with this 100%. It's as if Trump snapped on the light and now we can see all the cockroaches scurrying about. There were there all along, but they were hidden. Now they believe they can just saunter around in public. I believe that people are, in the main, good, and there will be a huge backlash against the alt right. Those f-ckers are gonna get foot stomped.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS Elect Trump II: We Are So Totally F%*#ed

Sure seemed to work for Trump.

I have a different take. While not meaning it, you and Handy basically wrote that we should be kinder to racists and bigots until they come around. I'd rather not do that. My issue with the Dems is that they try to be all things to all people. They need to cut that out and focus on their supporters, much like the right has done.

If you ever read the speeches of people like Lincoln, FDR and Kennedy, not just the famous ones but all the rest, you'll find they're very partisan people. That's not a bad thing necessarily. It gives your side a reason to turn out. In a perfect world you could appeal to the left and the middle and the center-right, but in a perfect world Trump wouldn't about to take office. Obama and Hillary Clinton spent too much time trying to be post-partisan figures, not realizing that and 50 cents will get you a newspaper and not much else. The electorate doesn't value that anymore if they ever did. The modern day GOP both in Congress, statehouses, and the next President needs to be called out directly and by name when necessary as the scum sucking a holes that they are. Along with their supporters. Mealy mouthed national conservations aren't cutting it. A scorched Earth policy will. This is why I miss Howard Dean who understood this better than almost anybody else in the party.

That isnt what I am saying...I have nothing but contempt for racist or people who want to deny gays of rights. But I am not a politician so me saying it holds no real weight.

When the trans movement ramped up last year and people were pushing for multisex bathrooms and all that jazz I had a conversation with my gf's family. Her parents and I work at the same college and there is discussion at the college of possibly turning all the bathrooms into non-sex bathrooms. I argued against it which brought some eyre from my gf and quizzical looks from her family. Despite my vocal support for LGBT rights I was being talked down to because I thought the idea was a bad idea. My explanation was that despite the logitical and financial issues involved, it was a change that wasnt needed because no one is policing the bathrooms anyways. Plus, by making it a huge deal (which it would be, the college would definitely make it known) you are disenfranchising those that dont support LGBT rights and you are making it an issue for them when it need not be. I said that the more the Left pushes this, the harder the blowback will be because a high percentage of the population isnt there yet...I had to end the conversation because I was honestly getting angry. (the school did not make the move yet but it is going to happen at some point)

Large sweeping changes are not liked by large populations of people. People need to be fed breadcrumbs to get them where you want to go. Think back to the Civil Rights movement, it didnt start with MLK and LBJ...it started long before that. It started with the Thirteenth Amendment (which was then blown back by things like Plessy vs. Ferguson) and then it continued with actions by people like Harry Truman. Then there was Brown vs. Board...etc. Movements need time to breathe, or people have a hard time accepting the larger change.

Like I said the Left is on the side of right...history will prove them correct. But we live in today and the election of Trump and his cabinet of hate mongers and bigots proves that overall people werent ready. The Left needs to learn from that or they will continue to have issues. People may be deplorable, but they still have a voice and will still vote.