POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

[Handyman]

"So. It's a train."

"if we offer them great coffee..."

 

[BassAle]

The affordability of cities is far more about the wage disparity between workers, not over crowding.

I disagree. It’s largely demand. More and more people are moving into cities because that’s where the jobs are. That’s driving up prices.

If they start paying everyobe that works in cities enough to comfortably afford a 1-2 million dollar home/condo then even more people will want to move to those cities.

And most sprawl happens where there is nothing, so there's no character to ruin.

That “nothing” is something. Read some Edward Abby

Unless you have firm examples of small towns being taken down so that strip malls can be put in.

If you are talking about the cultural character,

I don’t give a **** about cultural character. Drive around places like Denver, Salt Lake City, Seattle, San Jose, Phoenix

It’s a sea of cookie cutter cul de sacs, a depleted water table, and unsustainable growth.

I care about shrinking wilderness and the health of the environment. The East Coast is a lost cause. Let’s not ruin the west any more than it is.

 

[BassAle]

No, that's an excuse to be scared of people taking over your position.

Nobody lives in Maine, there's plenty of space. Good for the compounds people like you think you need. And if you look up your own statistics, you will see that nobody is moving to Maine, too.

So you've managed to scare off migrants.

Southern Maine is a poster child for sprawl and poor land-use choices (rural towns around Portland requiring 4 acre house lots to prevent “suburbanization).

I’m in favor of immigrants moving to Maine and higher density development here. (Both Portland and Lewiston have sizable immigrant communities, relative to their overall size, that are probably responsible for their only real growth over the last decade)

I’m still not excited about the inevitable 400M+ US population, most of whom are not going to be living in rural areas that currently have excess housing stock. It’s going to fuel massive new development , pushing further into the wilderness around our western cities.

Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit, and as vital to our lives as water and good bread. A civilization which destroys what little remains of the wild, the spare, the original, is cutting itself off from its origins and betraying the principle of civilization itself.

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

The ugliest thing in America is greed, the lust for power and domination, the lunatic ideology of perpetual Growth - with a capital G. 'Progress' in our nation has for too long been confused with 'Growth'; I see the two as different, almost incompatible, since progress means, or should mean, change for the better - toward social justice, a livable and open world, equal opportunity and affirmative action for all forms of life. And I mean all forms, not merely the human. The grizzly, the wolf, the rattlesnake, the condor, the coyote, the crocodile, whatever, each and every species has as much right to be here as we do.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

I’m still not excited about the inevitable 400M+ US population, most of whom are not going to be living in rural areas.

If history's a guide, they won't be adding to the current largest cities, either. NYC proper broke 9M about 1910 and hasn't budged since. Cities become overwhelming after a certain point. Adding another 50M to 350M, which is just a 14% increase BTW, will probably mean a bunch of new cities of 1-1.5M. That's what the population increase since 1950 has meant. So, cities like Charlotte, Denver, Nashville, OKC, Vegas, Albuquerque and Tucson that are now around 750k will instead be 1-1.25M. Big whup.

 

[BassAle]

If history's a guide, they won't be adding to the current largest cities, either. NYC proper broke 9M about 1910 and hasn't budged since. Cities become overwhelming after a certain point. Adding another 50M to 350M, which is just a 14% increase BTW, will probably mean a bunch of new cities of 1-1.5M. That's what the population increase since 1950 has meant. So, cities like Charlotte, Denver, Nashville, OKC, Vegas, Albuquerque and Tucson that are now around 750k will instead be 1-1.25M. Big whup.

It will be a big whup when Denver, Vegas, Albuquerque, and Tucson run out of water. These places have already changed, many people living there would say for the worse.

Lowering the global population is the best thing we could do for the planet

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

It will be a big whup when Denver, Vegas, Albuquerque, and Tucson run out of water. These places have already changed, many people living there would say for the worse.

The waters wars is a whole different problem. If we can't tech our way out of that then everything west of the Mississippi River and south of the Columbia/Snake/Missouri might as well be the Kalahari.

If it comes to that, without a reversal of climate change the die off from resource wars and simple environmental exhaustion will hold the US pop stagnant no matter how many immigrants come in. Be rich or be dead. Skin color, ethnicity, and birth status will be a non-factor.

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

It will be a big whup when Denver, Vegas, Albuquerque, and Tucson run out of water. These places have already changed, many people living there would say for the worse.

Lowering the global population is the best thing we could do for the planet

Ask China how that's going for them.
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/16/6293...nas-one-child-policy-births-are-still-lagging

 

[BassAle]

Ask China how that's going for them.
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/16/6293...nas-one-child-policy-births-are-still-lagging

I said best for the planet, not best for the economy.

This is exactly the point I’m trying to make. Our economy requires growth.

 

[BassAle]

The waters wars is a whole different problem. If we can't tech our way out of that then everything west of the Mississippi River and south of the Columbia/Snake/Missouri might as well be the Kalahari.

If it comes to that, without a reversal of climate change the die off from resource wars and simple environmental exhaustion will hold the US pop stagnant no matter how many immigrants come in. Be rich or be dead. Skin color, ethnicity, and birth status will be a non-factor.

It’s not a whole different problem. We wouldn’t need to tech our way out of it if we weren’t building in the desert. Some of our fastest growing cities are in some of the driest places.

Water, water, water....There is no shortage of water in the desert but exactly the right amount , a perfect ratio of water to rock, water to sand, insuring that wide free open, generous spacing among plants and animals, homes and towns and cities, which makes the arid West so different from any other part of the nation. There is no lack of water here unless you try to establish a city where no city should be.

Know how to avoid resource wars? Don’t have a ****ing economic model that relies on constant growth. It doesn’t _have_ to be inevitable

population growth exacerbates climate change. As does population migration into the U.S. where the average person consumes more resources.

 

[BassAle]

NYC proper broke 9M about 1910 and hasn't budged since.

NYC has been stuck at 9M for 100 years, but surrounding areas have grown significantly in that time. Also consider 9M people now is actually a lot more households.


I think immigrants contribute a lot to culture and in general make somewhere more interesting. I’d trade all the rednecks for immigrants in a heartbeat.

I’d just rather that the cancer that is human civilization stop metastasizing

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

Humans are a cancer limited only by war, disease, and famine.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

Looks like Trump is going to be stuck with Shutdown 2: The Walls a Khan.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

The waters wars is a whole different problem. If we can't tech our way out of that then everything west of the Mississippi River and south of the Columbia/Snake/Missouri might as well be the Kalahari.

If it comes to that, without a reversal of climate change the die off from resource wars and simple environmental exhaustion will hold the US pop stagnant no matter how many immigrants come in. Be rich or be dead. Skin color, ethnicity, and birth status will be a non-factor.

Water pipeline from Alaska.

One of Wally Hickel's ideas.

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

I disagree. It’s largely demand. More and more people are moving into cities because that’s where the jobs are. That’s driving up prices.

If they start paying everyobe that works in cities enough to comfortably afford a 1-2 million dollar home/condo then even more people will want to move to those cities.



That “nothing” is something. Read some Edward Abby



I don’t give a **** about cultural character. Drive around places like Denver, Salt Lake City, Seattle, San Jose, Phoenix

It’s a sea of cookie cutter cul de sacs, a depleted water table, and unsustainable growth.

I care about shrinking wilderness and the health of the environment. The East Coast is a lost cause. Let’s not ruin the west any more than it is.

The water problem is far, far, far more in crappy water control for farmers. They are the true wasters. Don't put it on consumers.

BTW, your "anti character" is just NIMBY. That's all.

You claim your state has no space, when you are one of the most wide spaced out states in the country, and that does NOT include going vertical. Nobody is moving to your state, so stop worrying about it.

One of these days, you should bother to question and look up what people are telling you instead of just vomiting up the same BS arguments. Especially the moron in the white house who claims 42M people will come across the border- that would take about 30-40 years- by then the population natural growth will likely have receded (which it is doing right now) and IF that 42M came in, it would roughly add nothing.

Immigrants are moving to farm lands to specifically pick up the work that people have walked away from. That's how it works.

 

[alfablue]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

Southern Maine is a poster child for sprawl and poor land-use choices (rural towns around Portland requiring 4 acre house lots to prevent “suburbanization).

I’m in favor of immigrants moving to Maine and higher density development here. (Both Portland and Lewiston have sizable immigrant communities, relative to their overall size, that are probably responsible for their only real growth over the last decade)

I’m still not excited about the inevitable 400M+ US population, most of whom are not going to be living in rural areas that currently have excess housing stock. It’s going to fuel massive new development , pushing further into the wilderness around our western cities.

Immigrants are not moving to urban areas as fast as people who already live here. That trend has been going on for over a century. Most people who move to all of the cities you whine about are not immigrants- they are just US citizens looking for work. The immigrants that do move there go to support them.

If you don't want people to move from rural to urban places, it's a MUCH bigger problem than immigration is. That's a whole jobs structure problem. If you can convince tech companies to locate their businesses in backwater towns, you would be a genius. And given that nobody has been able to really do that, forgive me for not thinking you can either. But that's not the majority immigration problem.

 

[BassAle]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

You claim your state has no space, when you are one of the most wide spaced out states in the country, and that does NOT include going vertical. Nobody is moving to your state, so stop worrying about it.

I never said that my state has no space. That was Drew so go **** yourself, this isn't even about Maine.

 

[BassAle]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

BTW, your "anti character" is just NIMBY. That's all.

go **** yourself. I'm totally okay with people moving to Maine. I've advocated for higher density developments and zoning amended to allow for taller buildings. I also welcome immigrants and domestic migration because we need them in Maine.

One of these days, you should bother to question and look up what people are telling you instead of just vomiting up the same BS arguments.

again, go **** yourself. I'm not anti-immigrant by any stretch. I acknowledge that we need immigrants. What I don't like is an economy that requires constant growth. That's clearly unsustainable.

Immigrants are moving to farm lands to specifically pick up the work that people have walked away from. That's how it works.

I don't think you know how it works. Some immigrants move to farm land, most do not. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apos-where-immigrants-moving-us-162100977.html


I don't really care if immigrants move here if our population flattens or comes close to doing so. I do have concerns about unsustainable growth, which our economy is designed to require. What I said is that "I"m not excited about the prospects of a U.S. population that's 400M+". Our current population is roughly 325M. I don't doubt I'll see 400M in my lifetime.

The water problem is far, far, far more in crappy water control for farmers. They are the true wasters. Don't put it on consumers.

who are they growing those crops for?

desert agriculture is a huge waste of water, but guess what? Its pretty much required given our population and its desire for fresh fruits and greens year round.

What about when Phoenix runs out of water? Who's fault will that be? It's idiotic to be encouraging population growth in the desert, but that's were a lot of it will happen over then next 100 years unless we run out of water.

 

[BassAle]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

But that's not the majority immigration problem.

I don't think there is an immigration problem. We clearly need immigrants. My company couldn't function with out skilled immigrants.

I think there is a fundamental economic problem that not only encourages population growth, but requires it to function. There is clearly a limit. I'd rather we stop before we reach it.

 

[BassAle]

Re: POTUS 45:48: There's Always Barber College

Most people who move to all of the cities you whine about are not immigrants- they are just US citizens looking for work.

That is true, and I never said it wasn't.

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-...p-2018-4?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=referral

My whole point was that I'm not excited by the prospect of population growth. A growing population, both from natural population growth and immigration, exacerbates many environmental problems.

You assumed I was some anti-immigrant Trumptard because I said I wasn't excited by the prospect of a 400M+ population and adding 50M hypothetical latin american immigrants would certainly get us closer to that number.

 

[Drew S.]

go **** yourself. I'm totally okay with people moving to Maine. I've advocated for higher density developments and zoning amended to allow for taller buildings. I also welcome immigrants and domestic migration because we need them in Maine.



again, go **** yourself. I'm not anti-immigrant by any stretch. I acknowledge that we need immigrants. What I don't like is an economy that requires constant growth. That's clearly unsustainable.




I don't think you know how it works. Some immigrants move to farm land, most do not. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apos-where-immigrants-moving-us-162100977.html


I don't really care if immigrants move here if our population flattens or comes close to doing so. I do have concerns about unsustainable growth, which our economy is designed to require. What I said is that "I"m not excited about the prospects of a U.S. population that's 400M+". Our current population is roughly 325M. I don't doubt I'll see 400M in my lifetime.



who are they growing those crops for?

desert agriculture is a huge waste of water, but guess what? Its pretty much required given our population and its desire for fresh fruits and greens year round.

What about when Phoenix runs out of water? Who's fault will that be? It's idiotic to be encouraging population growth in the desert, but that's were a lot of it will happen over then next 100 years unless we run out of water.

I’d much rather we had young, hard working immigrants move here from Latin America or wherever else versus old rich white people and I’m sure you feel the same way. Alfa completely missed the point.