POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

so a national decree? not a states decision?

That's not the way to look at it. This is nothing different than the way it was before -- it was always negotiated. The difference now is more people are being heard who didn't matter before. Most of the people who are worried about the statues don't give a sh-t about statues, they care that the old world order their fathers and pastors promised them is disappearing. In that world, if they were "normal" (white, Christian, straight) then they owned this country. We who didn't fit that model were deviants who they permitted to have rights out of noblesse oblige. In return, we were supposed to be grateful and respect their final decisions which they made for the good of everyone.

That crumbled through the middle of this century in the cities and the universities, and then in the late 20th C in the corporations, but it was still the mindset in the country and in the nutbar churches. Now it's crumbling there -- even their children see it as racist, sexist garbage unless they're completely braindead. Modernity is finally catching up with the deadenders, and they are responding exactly like the deadenders in the Middle East: with violence and bizarre fundamentalist religious bullsh-t, but mostly with hatred and eyes screwed so shut with intolerance their heads are 'sploding. This is American ISIS. It has its own TV network and its own president, but just like the other ISIS it's completely inept and insipid, partly because it attracts by definition only the most stupid, but also because there is no future in its fantasies. It is feeding on something already dead and decaying.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

That is a well thought out post, but doesn't answer the question. The underlined is my question. How far do you think the people will go? Not you specifically, but the gen pop?

By when? There is no endpoint, it just keeps changing, forever. The changes come from technology and historical events and, if you're a Hegelian (I'm not) from the gradual spooling out of History as a sort of organic creature.

The question you're asking doesn't really make sense. People aren't "going" anywhere. They're always trying to bring things into true with where they already are. Institutions and traditions (and statues) are literal reifications of culture, so they are always lagging indicators.

It's like somebody saying in 1915 "today society wants to give women the vote. How far will it go? Where will it end?" The answer is it will go where people want it to go: we are not forever stuck with the culture of the past, we do not live suffocated by skeletons and trapped in tombs. As for where it will end, it won't as long as we keep the species going. There is no end, there's just a perpetual evolution of culture in reaction to its circumstances, physical, intellectual, technological, etc.

 

[Handyman]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

You're upset because you figured Bannon would find a way to hang on.

Marines don't like it when you break ranks. Bannon had to go.

I am upset? Just because you predict something obvious, that lots of other people are predicting, and you get it right doesnt make you the genius you pretend you are mmmkay. Putting money on the favorite doesnt make you smart...

 

[mookie1995]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

read where the indians (dot) and chinese did some actual fighting in their border skirmish... albeit with rocks and clubs, but there was still interaction between the two.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Ok, so you can bury your head in the sand all you want.

There's more than enough going on that people want to take legal rights away from other people just because of who they are. First of all, that has to be stopped at all costs. But if you continue to just let if go unchecked, this will get ugly.

You don't seem to want to nip this in the bud just because our economy is better than Germany. That's it. BFD.

Nothing I've posted signifies I've buried my head in the sand and I'm well aware of the attempts of these aholes to take away the rights of others. Also nothing I've said equates to, "not wanting to nip this in the bud" but rather I simply think you need to temper the hyperbole. It's not going unchecked btw as there are plenty of people far and wide calling these aholes out as the racist pricks they are and I hope the opposition remains loud and proud. For the last time we're nowhere near the conditions of 1930's Germany and there's nothing you can point to that makes the situations remotely similar outside your imagination.

 

[BassAle]

One of those things everybody knows must be true... so it's the kind of thing I tend to question.

2010 Census has the following US Demographics:

White- 63.7%

Black -12.2%

Hispanic/Latino - 16.3%

Asian - 4.7%

The National Center for Education Statistics has the following Demographic breakdown for 2014 students enrolled in college:

White- 58%

Black- 14%

Hispanic/Latino - 17%

Asian- 7%

So if that's correct, it seems like minorities are a little over represented and whites a little under.

Are you accounting for student visas? Not everyone living here is a citizen.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Are you accounting for student visas? Not everyone living here is a citizen.

well how many kenyans do you think have crossed the ocean since barry?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Lol

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

By when? There is no endpoint, it just keeps changing, forever. The changes come from technology and historical events and, if you're a Hegelian (I'm not) from the gradual spooling out of History as a sort of organic creature.

The question you're asking doesn't really make sense. People aren't "going" anywhere. They're always trying to bring things into true with where they already are. Institutions and traditions (and statues) are literal reifications of culture, so they are always lagging indicators.

It's like somebody saying in 1915 "today society wants to give women the vote. How far will it go? Where will it end?" The answer is it will go where people want it to go: we are not forever stuck with the culture of the past, we do not live suffocated by skeletons and trapped in tombs. As for where it will end, it won't as long as we keep the species going. There is no end, there's just a perpetual evolution of culture in reaction to its circumstances, physical, intellectual, technological, etc.

Okay, let's go with 10 years from now, where will we be? Enough time for changes to be made, but not enough time for a full generational swing.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

read where the indians (dot) and chinese did some actual fighting in their border skirmish... albeit with rocks and clubs, but there was still interaction between the two.

Don't worry about it unless they let the nukes fly.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Are you accounting for student visas? Not everyone living here is a citizen.

And not everyone in our schools even lives in the US permanently and would not be counted among our population.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

It's like somebody saying in 1915 "today society wants to give women the vote. How far will it go? Where will it end?"

"Today it's the womenfolk, tomorrow it's 18 year-olds who don't know their a55 from a hole in the ground!"

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Okay, let's go with 10 years from now, where will we be? Enough time for changes to be made, but not enough time for a full generational swing.

Who cares? We aren't there and have no idea where we'll be in 10 years.

Hopefully the racists are gone and we don't need to continue dismantling their monuments of hatred.

Or maybe we'll have evolved a sense of deep embarrassment, took a howitzer to Mt. Rushmore, and returned it to the Native Americans.

Maybe we've started to pay reparations to blacks. Maybe we've all given in to the racists and erected a new 250 ft monument in DC to David Duke.

Who knows? But today we have an issue where a bunch of racists use monuments to traitors and racists of past as a way to cling to their dying breaths of an ideology.

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

I care, and the discussion is to get a sense of direction on where we are headed, where we are ending up, etc.

The racists will still be there, unfortunately, IMO. I think they are more blatant today than 10 years ago, when most of them were more subtle in their opinions. They feel almost empowered right now, no thanks to Trump.

By discussing this, maybe we can figure some stuff out and fix problems. *shrug* I hope, anyway.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

We know the direction we're heading. Dismantling the racist infrastructure. If that means taking down all of the monuments to our leaders pre-Civil War, so be it.

Your slippery slope argument is not a compelling one. Because in this case the end goal is far more important than monuments.

 

[The Rube]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

We know the direction we're heading. Dismantling the racist infrastructure. If that means taking down all of the monuments to our leaders pre-Civil War, so be it.

Your slippery slope argument is not a compelling one. Because in this case the end goal is far more important than monuments.

Referring to the bolded/underlined, do you think that's where it will end up? Again, honest question. If it's ALL monuments, does that include things like Mt Rushmore, which you previously mentioned?

 

[burd]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

Obama's email saying that we are not born racists is inspiring and the right thing so say. But while we are not born racists, it appears we are born with genetic characteristics that make us more likely to have racist views. Our monkey brains still tend to react with caution, alarm, or fear to tribal strangers--surely an evolutionary characteristic. Recently discussed studies that show fear-response tendencies differ between conservatives and non conservatives in ways that correspond to differences in Amygdala function.

There is no excuse for racism or other forms of bigotry, and we each should be held accountable, but that is not to say we should ignore the science related to it. Like other forms of bias; if we understand the science of it, maybe we will become better at dealing with it.

As to any measures that take us a step back in free speech or assembly rights, they would have to be compelling and not just an emotional response to events like Charlottesville. As Mr. Justice Holmes said:

But when men have realized that time has upset many fighting faiths, they may come to believe even more than they believe the very foundations of their own conduct that the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas -- that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: POTUS 45.17 - Section 4 of Amendment 25

So since that's a fact, since Wisconsin is not even 3% African American, that's not a problem. Or just over 2% hispanic. No big deal.

That data is kind of misleading, as it is a sum of all schools, and many of the big schools are not even close to that. Kind of like how separate but equal is ok. When it isn't.

OK, but the data I see for UW Madison says 78.9% white. 4.7% Hispanic, 2.2% mixed race, 2.2% black. WI pop. is 86.7% white. So it doesn't appear to me that those under represented black kids seats are going to white kids. (At UMICH Asians are 12.8% of undergrads, 1.8% of the state?) U of Florida similarly has blacks and whites under represented, Latinos and Asians over.

I'm not advocating for anything, just saying it appears, at least on the surface, that it's not necessarily Whitey taking up all the African American seats. I read there are about 23 million college students, so in my original post it appears whites are under represented nationally by 5.7%, that's under by 1.3 million white kids nation wide. It could be that they do have an argument to make as well.

 

[joecct]

I care, and the discussion is to get a sense of direction on where we are headed, where we are ending up, etc.

The racists will still be there, unfortunately, IMO. I think they are more blatant today than 10 years ago, when most of them were more subtle in their opinions. They feel almost empowered right now, no thanks to Trump.

By discussing this, maybe we can figure some stuff out and fix problems. *shrug* I hope, anyway.

We've had "No Irish Allowed", the "Yellow Peril", Reconstruction, Know Nothings, KKK, Gentlemens' Agreements and Massive Resistance to name a few. Nothing has changed. Just the targets.

 

[alfablue]

OK, but the data I see for UW Madison says 78.9% white. 4.7% Hispanic, 2.2% mixed race, 2.2% black. WI pop. is 86.7% white. So it doesn't appear to me that those under represented black kids seats are going to white kids. (At UMICH Asians are 12.8% of undergrads, 1.8% of the state?) U of Florida similarly has blacks and whites under represented, Latinos and Asians over.

I'm not advocating for anything, just saying it appears, at least on the surface, that it's not necessarily Whitey taking up all the African American seats. I read there are about 23 million college students, so in my original post it appears whites are under represented nationally by 5.7%, that's under by 1.3 million white kids nation wide. It could be that they do have an argument to make as well.

The other issue with your data that makes it appear equal is the result in the general society. Minorities still have a wage gap that significantly as a good increase is jobless rates.

Which points out that the separate but equal isn't, since it's not impacting jobs and wages as much as it should.