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POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

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Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
If Obama gave the speech Trump did, the usual suspects would scream about him making a distinction between terrorists and Islam, and how it was proof he's a secret Muslim who practices the doctrine of taqiyya to advance the Islamic agenda/invasion/etc.
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Obviously. The political right in the US, at this time, has no integrity.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

Handyman said:
No...they are never going to reform their system it is why I want us to stop sucking up to them. They are not our ally we are their customer...

And selling them arms is just the biggest piece of crap their is. This crap didnt work when we did it with Saddam to fight Iran and it wont work here. They are just as likely to give those weapons to terrorists or use them against Israel as there is they will use them to fight ISIS. (and how many craptastic regimes must we have help us fight an army of like 100k?)

And there is a zero percent chance any GOPer would be liking this if Obama or Hillary did it.
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The US is not the only arms supplier in the world. The Saudis have mountains of cash and a need for weapons. The House of Saud themselves are relatively moderate (relative to extreme Islamists, which is beyond RWNJ's here) pragmatists who wake up everyday thinking about how to maintain the status quo of being in power and filthy rich. And mainly how to avoid what happened to the Shah of Iran during the Iranian revolution which also threatened their own country, or also Mubarak, et al in the Arab spring. Given that, if we refuse them, they are certainly not going to just sit in their palaces and wait for the Iranians and/or the their own home grown extremists to realize they're defenseless. They will make any deal necessary that keeps them in power-- with the Russians, with the PRC -- they fear the West, but will readily take the cash and the influence that we enjoy and give it away to whomever if cornered. In dealing with them it is worthwhile to consider these sorts of things and how they might affect not only US interests, but the balance of power in the Middle East.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

In the middle east, we can either support the Iranians or the Saudis. Or we can support neither and cede influence to the Russians and/or Chinese. Tbh, I just like rubbing Trump's and his supporters noses in the dog crap that were his own words against Obama than view it in any sort of seriousness.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

So, uh, Flynn is going to refuse the Senate subpoena and invoke the 5th Amendment.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

Wisko McBadgerton said:
The US is not the only arms supplier in the world. The Saudis have mountains of cash and a need for weapons. The House of Saud themselves are relatively moderate (relative to extreme Islamists, which is beyond RWNJ's here) pragmatists who wake up everyday thinking about how to maintain the status quo of being in power and filthy rich. And mainly how to avoid what happened to the Shah of Iran during the Iranian revolution which also threatened their own country, or also Mubarak, et al in the Arab spring. Given that, if we refuse them, they are certainly not going to just sit in their palaces and wait for the Iranians and/or the their own home grown extremists to realize they're defenseless. They will make any deal necessary that keeps them in power-- with the Russians, with the PRC -- they fear the West, but will readily take the cash and the influence that we enjoy and give it away to whomever if cornered. In dealing with them it is worthwhile to consider these sorts of things and how they might affect not only US interests, but the balance of power in the Middle East.
Click to expand...

So we should do it because if we dont someone else will? Do you actually believe this crap or are you just saying it because your side made the deal?

Effect the balance of power...that is a laugh. The moderates you speak of in the House of Saud are in bed with terrorists just as much as anyone. They dont hate ISIS for any other reason than ISIS is an enemy to the terrorist groups and destabilizing efforts the House of Saud themselves support. Should we sell weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah too if they come out against ISIS? I mean they are important to the region as well and upsetting them could throw things into chaos! Plus, they certainly dont need our help to obtain weapons they have the funds and the access so why not right?

What you are saying is the exact same lame excuses Saint Ronnie and His Band of Liars and Thieves made when they sold weapons to Saddam. Those weapons were going to be used to fight Iran our mutual enemy. Dont upset Saddam because he has control over vast swaths of land, lots of money and power, is moderate in comparison to the other thugs in the region and has no interest in taking up arms against us because we help him out. (quite pragmatic wouldnt you say) What happened exactly with that one?

And again...the outcry we would hear from your cohort if Obama sold weapons to Saudi Arabia (my guess is we would not be hearing them called pragmatists and moderate) would be deafening. And I would be right there with them...this was unneeded and the chances those weapons are used against our interests are even money at best if you are betting.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

bronconick said:
In the middle east, we can either support the Iranians or the Saudis. Or we can support neither and cede influence to the Russians and/or Chinese. Tbh, I just like rubbing Trump's and his supporters noses in the dog crap that were his own words against Obama than view it in any sort of seriousness.
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I would rather cede influence...let them deal with this crap. It isnt like all of the different countries/sects will stop fighting each other and killing each other. Nothing will change except Americans will stop dying supporting the enemy of our enemy who is also our enemy. Or we can take sides and fight our enemy and our "ally" who is also our enemy depending on which country we are in and who is ruling. (see: Syria) Us being involved there isnt helping.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

bronconick said:
It'd be malpractice by his lawyer for him not to.
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Agreed. He has no immunity so if he doesnt invoke he either admits to crimes or lies. He knows what they know and he also knows what he did.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

Wisko McBadgerton said:
The US is not the only arms supplier in the world. The Saudis have mountains of cash and a need for weapons.
Click to expand...

The current economy depends on us selling imperial storm trooper gear and services (weapons, surveillance systems, operators, training, logs and O&M support) back to the Saudis. It's the third leg of the petrodollar economy and the only thing keeping the US economy afloat.

The US buys oil from the Saudis. Since 1971, there is nothing behind those dollars -- the US has to print those dollars out of thin air and sell them on the debt market. Meanwhile, the Saudis "buy" weapons from the US to defray some of the cost. That part of the oil transactions is really denominated in large part in airplanes, missiles, secret prisons, US military installations protecting the Saudi state, and torture kits.

But there are consequences, foreseen or not. The US defense companies and the financial interests that oversee the deals are paid by USG contracts, so the taxpayer is subsidizing deals where the profit goes to private interests while the debt is socialized. Plus, the Saudi dictatorship can use those toys on any enemy -- including domestic forces trying to unseat the dictatorship. To go with the oppression, local religious fanatics are upset by US troops stationed on their soil. So the Saudi government and their US enablers become the enemy of the Saudi people and radical Muslims, and as-sholes fly airplanes into buildings to get back at all the main players in the game.

This, of course, starts a new global cycle where imperial storm trooper gear and services now spread literally all over the world, with trillions of global dollars from all countries now pouring into private pockets. The opportunity cost of those dollars in lost education, investment, and social services pushes rich countries into austerity and borderline countries into failed statehood, destabilizing the globe and leading to more unrest hence more Draconian crackdowns and more authoritarian response and greater enrichment of those who control finance, energy and weapons.

And that's the history of the last fifty years.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

Handyman said:
Agreed. He has no immunity so if he doesnt invoke he either admits to crimes or lies. He knows what they know and he also knows what he did.
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And no one wants his immunity because he'd copy Oliver North and claim that he himself is responsible for everything, killing the investigation.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

bronconick said:
And no one wants his immunity because he'd copy Oliver North and claim that he himself is responsible for everything, killing the investigation.
Click to expand...

Bingo! Worked out well for Ollie too he wrote a book and made plenty on the lecture circuit.

Pleading the fifth isnt a guarantee to save him either...
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

Handyman said:
So we should do it because if we dont someone else will? Do you actually believe this crap or are you just saying it because your side made the deal?

Effect the balance of power...that is a laugh. The moderates you speak of in the House of Saud are in bed with terrorists just as much as anyone. They dont hate ISIS for any other reason than ISIS is an enemy to the terrorist groups and destabilizing efforts the House of Saud themselves support. Should we sell weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah too if they come out against ISIS? I mean they are important to the region as well and upsetting them could throw things into chaos! Plus, they certainly dont need our help to obtain weapons they have the funds and the access so why not right?

What you are saying is the exact same lame excuses Saint Ronnie and His Band of Liars and Thieves made when they sold weapons to Saddam. Those weapons were going to be used to fight Iran our mutual enemy. Dont upset Saddam because he has control over vast swaths of land, lots of money and power, is moderate in comparison to the other thugs in the region and has no interest in taking up arms against us because we help him out. (quite pragmatic wouldnt you say) What happened exactly with that one?

And again...the outcry we would hear from your cohort if Obama sold weapons to Saudi Arabia (my guess is we would not be hearing them called pragmatists and moderate) would be deafening. And I would be right there with them...this was unneeded and the chances those weapons are used against our interests are even money at best if you are betting.
Click to expand...

What I said was we have to consider what happens if we withdraw support from the Saudis. But this isn't a black and white situation. Sure, complete withdrawal from the Middle East is one option, but let's not pretend that it doesn't come with consequences. Withdrawing power from Iraq left a vacuum that was quickly filled. Ceding influence could give rise to a real Caliphate, the destruction of Israel, and human rights violations that make the current Saudis look like Gandhi. There are other possibilities. Everyone seeking power and control could just stop and hand Pepsi to their enemies. That would probably benefit the US economy.

If Obama sold arms to Saudi Arabia? The Obama administration sold roughly $115 billion in arms to the Saudis.
 
Re: POTUS 45.10 - Stage Two in Perpetuity

Kepler said:
The current economy depends on us selling imperial storm trooper gear and services (weapons, surveillance systems, operators, training, logs and O&M support) back to the Saudis. It's the third leg of the petrodollar economy and the only thing keeping the US economy afloat.

The US buys oil from the Saudis. Since 1971, there is nothing behind those dollars -- the US has to print those dollars out of thin air and sell them on the debt market. Meanwhile, the Saudis "buy" weapons from the US to defray some of the cost. That part of the oil transactions is really denominated in large part in airplanes, missiles, secret prisons, US military installations protecting the Saudi state, and torture kits.

But there are consequences, foreseen or not. The US defense companies and the financial interests that oversee the deals are paid by USG contracts, so the taxpayer is subsidizing deals where the profit goes to private interests while the debt is socialized. Plus, the Saudi dictatorship can use those toys on any enemy -- including domestic forces trying to unseat the dictatorship. To go with the oppression, local religious fanatics are upset by US troops stationed on their soil. So the Saudi government and their US enablers become the enemy of the Saudi people and radical Muslims, and as-sholes fly airplanes into buildings to get back at all the main players in the game.

This, of course, starts a new global cycle where imperial storm trooper gear and services now spread literally all over the world, with trillions of global dollars from all countries now pouring into private pockets. The opportunity cost of those dollars in lost education, investment, and social services pushes rich countries into austerity and borderline countries into failed statehood, destabilizing the globe and leading to more unrest hence more Draconian crackdowns and more authoritarian response and greater enrichment of those who control finance, energy and weapons.

And that's the history of the last fifty years.
Click to expand...

So... basically Saudi women could drive cars ... but the US economy will collapse. What a conundrum!
 
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