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Polls 2021-2022

ARM said:
. Barring those, they looked a little like UW buzzing around an opponent while somehow consistently failing to score. Obviously, the opponent was considerably better than what managed to thwart Wisconsin for much of the extended weekend.
Click to expand...

BC > St. Cloud? Not.
 
TonyTheTiger20 said:
Yeah, normally I would think it just isn't possible, but Northeastern's SOS is so terrible right now that any more losses they'd take would really be killer. Losses among the top four won't do nearly as much damage. It would be a surprise but I could see it happening where UMD gets into the top four. In fact in a vacuum, NU losing to BC today alone would be enough to drop the Huskies down to 6th and jump UMD to 4th:


Ob02sy5.png


On top of that, Harvard is going to have a really difficult time moving up because they are locked into losing the UMD/HU Pairwise comparison thanks to their 0-2-0 H2H record. That's why you see UMD up in 4th despite the lower RPI. One or two UMD upsets and they are going to be sitting pretty.
Click to expand...

So Tony, if i did the predictor correct, if UMD splits with Wisco, wins the rest, and Harvard and Northeastern win the rest of theirs, top 4 end up all WCHA?
 
HockeyGuy362 said:
So Tony, if i did the predictor correct, if UMD splits with Wisco, wins the rest, and Harvard and Northeastern win the rest of theirs, top 4 end up all WCHA?
Click to expand...

Can be hard to say because other games will influence the standings but I would say that certainly passes the smell test.
 
[TABLE="cellspacing: 0"]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]Minnesota[/TD]
[TD](13)[/TD]
[TD]22-7-1[/TD]
[TD]148[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Ohio State[/TD]
[TD](2)[/TD]
[TD]21-5-0[/TD]
[TD]137[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]Wisconsin[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]21-4-4[/TD]
[TD]117[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Minnesota Duluth[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]18-9-0[/TD]
[TD]99[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]Northeastern[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]22-4-1[/TD]
[TD]91[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Harvard[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]17-6-0[/TD]
[TD]78[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Yale[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]18-5-1[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]Colgate[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]21-7-1[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]Clarkson[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]21-6-3[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]NR[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]Quinnipiac[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]19-7-3[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Others receiving votes: Vermont 15, Connecticut 8

Updated Poll
 
No surprise; Gophers still ranked #1 with the Ohio State Buckeyes #2. Wisconsin ranked 3rd, Northeastern 4, Duluth #5. Yale leads the Ivies with Harvard close behind.
 
Timothy A said:
Why did UMD drop?
Click to expand...

I think the closeness of the first St. Thomas game hurt UMD. They righted the ship the next day, but I think they may have taken St. Thomas too lightly. The WCHA is a tough conference. I hope the Gophers don't stumble this week by underestimating their likely opponent of the next 4 games.
 
Steamboat said:
I think the closeness of the first St. Thomas game hurt UMD. They righted the ship the next day, but I think they may have taken St. Thomas too lightly. The WCHA is a tough conference. I hope the Gophers don't stumble this week by underestimating their likely opponent of the next 4 games.
Click to expand...

Too many weekends against bottom teams. In the ECAC only the RPI/Union weekend is against bottom teams, otherwise you're playing at least 1 team in the top 10 in PWR and usually 2 in the top 15 or so every weekend.
 
TitleIXHockey said:
Too many weekends against bottom teams.
Click to expand...
I agree. I thought that the Gophers level of play deteriorated yesterday versus St. Thomas. Too much skating around with the puck that won't work against better competition. Now they get another weekend of the same. Not an optimal recipe for honing a team for the postseason.
 
TitleIXHockey said:
Too many weekends against bottom teams. In the ECAC only the RPI/Union weekend is against bottom teams, otherwise you're playing at least 1 team in the top 10 in PWR and usually 2 in the top 15 or so every weekend.
Click to expand...

I need to partially disagree with your interpretation. I am assuming we're just talking about the polls here -- the thread topic -- not pairwise calculations.

First, I'm sure we agree that the addition of St. Thomas to the WCHA means 4 more games against a "bottom team." Any new team is going to struggle in its first year. I still believe that Women's Hockey at St. Thomas is a very promising enterprise, and that we were correct to accept them into our league. But yes, for the short term, we have an expansion team in our ranks. That does provide an opportunity for the other teams to pad their records.

But to justify your sweeping interpretation, I believe you must also be targeting Minnesota State & Bemidji State. Browsing through the various resumes, it doesn't look good initially for the Mavericks and Beavers. Mediocre W-L Records, Goals against greatly exceeding Goals For. And yet I believe these "middle of the standings" WCHA teams would do just fine against the middle of the pack ECAC teams. This year that appears to mean Cornell, St. Lawrence & Princeton. I'm sure you recall that Bemidji had a win and a tie against Clarkson, who's running ahead those three schools. Note that Minnesota State routed Merrimack (WHEA) twice in road games, in their opportunity to play an Eastern team.

Next, I'm going to gently suggest that Dartmouth & Brown have pretty shaky resumes as well. Thus giving the ECAC contenders an opportunity to pad their records. No disrespect to those programs, of course. But the wins haven't been there in 2021-22.

OK, none of that proves "WCHA Superiority." But more to the point, there aren't nearly enough East/West games to justify a claim of superiority by either side.

As an actual voter, you obviously can and will vote on any basis you want. My position is that it's unreasonable for a poll voter to simply dismiss Minnesota State & Bemidji as "bottom teams." My eye test says otherwise.

(In the alternative, if you're exempting the Mavs and the Beavers from the bottom group, then one should compare St. Cloud/St. Thomas/Lindenwood to RPI/Union/Dartmouth/Brown. For a poll voter, I don't think it's self-evident that one group is stronger than the other.)
 
Updated poll as of 2/21/22
1. Minnesota
2. Ohio State
3. Northeastern (4)
4. Wisconsin (3)
5. Minnesota Duluth
6. Harvard (7)
7. Yale (6)
8. Colgate
9. Quinnipiac
10. Clarkson
ORV - Vermont
Note: Last week's ranking shown in parenthesis
 
pgb-ohio said:
I need to partially disagree with your interpretation. I am assuming we're just talking about the polls here -- the thread topic -- not pairwise calculations.

First, I'm sure we agree that the addition of St. Thomas to the WCHA means 4 more games against a "bottom team." Any new team is going to struggle in its first year. I still believe that Women's Hockey at St. Thomas is a very promising enterprise, and that we were correct to accept them into our league. But yes, for the short term, we have an expansion team in our ranks. That does provide an opportunity for the other teams to pad their records.

But to justify your sweeping interpretation, I believe you must also be targeting Minnesota State & Bemidji State. Browsing through the various resumes, it doesn't look good initially for the Mavericks and Beavers. Mediocre W-L Records, Goals against greatly exceeding Goals For. And yet I believe these "middle of the standings" WCHA teams would do just fine against the middle of the pack ECAC teams. This year that appears to mean Cornell, St. Lawrence & Princeton. I'm sure you recall that Bemidji had a win and a tie against Clarkson, who's running ahead those three schools. Note that Minnesota State routed Merrimack (WHEA) twice in road games, in their opportunity to play an Eastern team.

Next, I'm going to gently suggest that Dartmouth & Brown have pretty shaky resumes as well. Thus giving the ECAC contenders an opportunity to pad their records. No disrespect to those programs, of course. But the wins haven't been there in 2021-22.

OK, none of that proves "WCHA Superiority." But more to the point, there aren't nearly enough East/West games to justify a claim of superiority by either side.

As an actual voter, you obviously can and will vote on any basis you want. My position is that it's unreasonable for a poll voter to simply dismiss Minnesota State & Bemidji as "bottom teams." My eye test says otherwise.

(In the alternative, if you're exempting the Mavs and the Beavers from the bottom group, then one should compare St. Cloud/St. Thomas/Lindenwood to RPI/Union/Dartmouth/Brown. For a poll voter, I don't think it's self-evident that one group is stronger than the other.)
Click to expand...

A few things, namely, even if you include all 4 ECAC non playoff teams, that's still only 8 games. And when you play Dartmouth, you have to play Harvard the same weekend. Ditto for Brown / Yale as opposed to getting the last-place team twice in a weekend. Only the RPI - Union pairing is a full weekend of bottoms teams, unlike the WCHA where you could go four weekends without playing a top four team in the conference.

The Clarkson - Bemidji games are disappointing, but also featured a Clarkson team 7 games into trying to figure out how to recover from the best player in program history. A lot of the early games had some weird results. Cornell looked like they might finish 12th in the ECAC to start the season (they lost their top 5 scorers and top 4 defenders). Some teams hadn't played in 2 years.
 
ARM said:
I agree. I thought that the Gophers level of play deteriorated yesterday versus St. Thomas. Too much skating around with the puck that won't work against better competition. Now they get another weekend of the same. Not an optimal recipe for honing a team for the postseason.
Click to expand...

St. Thomas's small roster seemed to catch up with them about midway through the season. They did not look as good to end the year as they did to start.
 
TitleIXHockey said:
St. Thomas's small roster seemed to catch up with them about midway through the season. They did not look as good to end the year as they did to start.
Click to expand...
Covid and the Olympic departures hit them at the same time, and they were pretty thin after that.
 
ARM said:
Covid and the Olympic departures hit them at the same time, and they were pretty thin after that.
Click to expand...

Having watched many of their games, I am impressed with the way they keep playing up to the final horn. Bethany seems to have instilled a good attitude even if they get beat up on every week. With their top goalie back, the Gophers better not be caught sleeping this weekend.
 
TitleIXHockey said:
The Clarkson - Bemidji games are disappointing, but...
Click to expand...

They played the games when they did and of course the spin can only go one way that Clarkson was struggling to find itself. Bemidji, of course, was in mid-season form as they didn't have to deal with losing a top player to transfer. Oh wait...They did have that similar scenario.
 
TitleIXHockey said:
A few things, namely, even if you include all 4 ECAC non playoff teams, that's still only 8 games. And when you play Dartmouth, you have to play Harvard the same weekend. Ditto for Brown / Yale as opposed to getting the last-place team twice in a weekend. Only the RPI - Union pairing is a full weekend of bottoms teams, unlike the WCHA where you could go four weekends without playing a top four team in the conference.
Click to expand...
Again, I don't envy your job as a poll voter. It's tough to find meaningful ways to compare East & West with so few head-to-head games. But "Too Many Games Against Bottom Teams" really is just spin.

Here's another way to spin it. When a pair of closely matched teams play a 2 game series, there's a tendency to split games. If your mission is to take down Harvard, what a nice luxury to only have to do it once, then finish the weekend against a bottom team. The ECAC: Too Many Single Games Against The Top Teams. Therefore you must discount the performance of ECAC teams across the board.

See what I mean? Both spins are pretty unpersuasive. There's a grain of truth to each. But IMHO, neither one provides a basis for penalizing teams in the rankings.

The Clarkson - Bemidji games are disappointing, but also featured a Clarkson team 7 games into trying to figure out how to recover from the best player in program history. A lot of the early games had some weird results. Cornell looked like they might finish 12th in the ECAC to start the season (they lost their top 5 scorers and top 4 defenders). Some teams hadn't played in 2 years.
Click to expand...
As per Five Hole Frenzy, suggesting that Bemidji is a bottom team is a non-starter. Especially when the two most relevant game results cut the other way, and the "excuse" doesn't cut it.

Also, the pandemic has been a difficult challenge for everyone. Not in identical ways across the board, but a major disruption for all. Suggesting that certain losses must be forgiven because one team's pandemic experience was somehow worse than another's doesn't pass the smell test. Poll points should be gained or lost on the ice.
 
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