Open Wheel Racing 2021, anyone there to watch?

[MichVandal]

F1 is reporting that Ricciardo is leaving McLaren at the end of the season. All of the speculation is now happening.

 

[Kepler]

F1 is reporting that Ricciardo is leaving McLaren at the end of the season. All of the speculation is now happening.

I thought we already knew this?

 

[Spartanforlife4]

F1 is reporting that Ricciardo is leaving McLaren at the end of the season. All of the speculation is now happening.

Wasn’t that confirmed like two weeks ago? Or just rumor stage?

And as a newer fan, nothing has confused me more than trying to figure out the teams alliances/partnerships/motors.

There’s Mercedes and then like two other teams that are also Mercedes. Then there’s Red Bull and AT as sister teams. Then as was discussed Ferrari is it’s own thing entirely, but other teams like Aston Martin are just sponsored by the company and not really affiliated with them.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

4 days to quali.

Does this mean that Red Bull will race as "Porsche" and Alfa Romeo will race as "Audi"?

I'd be all for the first and against the second.

Alfa Romeo will definitely be renamed Audi, but probably not till 2026.

We have no idea what Red Bull and Porsche are thinking. My guess, is they will be initially referred to as Red Bull-Porsche. But again, not till 2026.

As for Alfa sponsoring Sauber, yeah, it's kind of a cheap way to get your name out there to the F1 audience (and Alfa is perfectly okay with this and even said if they get kicked out of Sauber, they will look for another team to "attach" their name to). And let's face it, how many of the average car buyers, even in Europe, really knows or cares that the Alfa Romeo F1 team actually uses Ferrari engines?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Wasn’t that confirmed like two weeks ago? Or just rumor stage?

And as a newer fan, nothing has confused me more than trying to figure out the teams alliances/partnerships/motors.

There’s Mercedes and then like two other teams that are also Mercedes. Then there’s Red Bull and AT as sister teams. Then as was discussed Ferrari is it’s own thing entirely, but other teams like Aston Martin are just sponsored by the company and not really affiliated with them.

Stroll has talked about Aston Martin producing an F1 engine. But with Aston-Martin street car company's financial issues, I find that hard to fathom. And let's not forget that Aston Martin street cars do sometimes use Mercedes engines. So, the Mercedes-Aston Martin relationship is not totally farfetched.

Mercedes currently supplies Aston Martin, McLaren, and Williams.

Ferrari supplies Haas and Alfa Romeo.

Renault (Alpine) supplies nobody, which is why they want Andretti to be allowed to create a new team.

Honda, whoops, Red Bull, supplies AlphaTauri, a team Red Bull also owns.

One key factor to all these supplier agreements, is when teams vote on rules and such, many times the engine supplier will tell the team how to vote. And they don't have a choice... So, in other words, Mercedes has by defacto four votes, Ferrari three votes, etc. So, it becomes politically advantage some to supply as many teams as reasonably possible. Plus, it helps give these teams places to put their junior drivers while keeping them under contract. Just look at the mess Alpine got themselves into with Piastri because they really had no easy place to put him.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Alfa, absolutely.

Aston is kind of a gray area- Stroll actually owns Aston Martin, the car company. And, as of a few years ago, Mercedes is their engine suppiier for the road cars.

Besides, Mercedes isn’t actually Mercedes- just the engine. The home factory is in England.

Merc is probably close enough, but Ferrari- that’s a real factory team, where the team home is where the main facility is in Maranello. Renault- have to look into it more.

I considered (past tense) Mercedes a full fledged factory team. I think you are nitpicking the differences between them and Ferrari. Ditto with Renault/Alpine -- full fledged factory team.

Having said, Mercedes doesn't own the majority of the team anymore. Mercedes owns 1/3, Ineos (their main sponsor) owns 1/3, and Toto Woolf owns 1/3.

I agree Aston Martin is a gray area.

 

[MichVandal]

The reason I’ve nitpicked is where they came from and where is the home relative to the real home. It’s really nitpicking, I totally agree. But Mercedes’ now isn’t what it was even in the 50’s. And I would wager that Audi will be more Sauber than Audi when it happens. Which is ok. All teams have changed hands so many times in the last 20 years other than Ferrari and McLaren, it’s kind of dizzying.

 

[Kepler]

This is incredibly confusing but thank you guys for trying to explain.

If Andretti enters will there be 11 teams? Will 22 cars race on Sunday or are the slowest 2 knocked off the grid in Q1?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

This is incredibly confusing but thank you guys for trying to explain.

If Andretti enters will there be 11 teams? Will 22 cars race on Sunday or are the slowest 2 knocked off the grid in Q1?

The Concorde Agreement allows for 12 teams, 24 cars. So, not a problem.

Though, technically there is a 120% rule, in which you must qualify within 120% of the pole position time in order to start the race. However, the Stewards can waive that due to special circumstances

 

[MichVandal]

This is incredibly confusing but thank you guys for trying to explain.

If Andretti enters will there be 11 teams? Will 22 cars race on Sunday or are the slowest 2 knocked off the grid in Q1?

Confusing for sure, when you see highlights of races even just 10 years ago, there are a lot of teams I forgot even existed. And all but two teams still exist with different owners.

Let alone the season there were two Lotus teams. Geez.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Let alone the season there were two Lotus teams. Geez.

LOL. Even us longtime F1 experts have trouble explaining this one in detail... Heck, even the courts had trouble!

 

[Kepler]

LOL. Even us longtime F1 experts have trouble explaining this one in detail... Heck, even the courts had trouble!

Isn't that what we have now with Red Bull and Alpha Tauri? Those are Red Bull seats 1, 2, 3, and 4. The only reason they aren't literally called RB1 and RB2 is to make things simpler on the track bug.

Or were these Lotus teams that were run by different groups who genuinely competed? That would be bizarre and wonderful.

BTW, is there an F1 rule against Red Bull sending out a team order to Alpha Tauri for them say to help Max?

 

[MichVandal]

Isn't that what we have now with Red Bull and Alpha Tauri? Those are Red Bull seats 1, 2, 3, and 4. The only reason they aren't literally called RB1 and RB2 is to make things simpler on the track bug.

Or were these Lotus teams that were run by different groups who genuinely competed? That would be bizarre and wonderful.

BTW, is there an F1 rule against Red Bull sending out a team order to Alpha Tauri for them say to help Max?

Completely different teams, and they went to court to decide who owned the name Lotus.

BTW, AlphaTauri used to be called Toro Rosso. I’ll leave the translation to you.

Theoretically, Dieter can call, and have them hold someone up. Happened a few times last season, actually. But the teams are different enough.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Completely different teams, and they went to court to decide who owned the name Lotus.

BTW, AlphaTauri used to be called Toro Rosso. I’ll leave the translation to you.

Theoretically, Dieter can call, and have them hold someone up. Happened a few times last season, actually. But the teams are different enough.

Toro Rosso was Minardi.
Red Bull was Jaguar who was Ford who was Stewart.
Alpine was Renault who was Lotus who was Renault who was Benetton who was Toleman but not the original Renault from 1977 to 1985.
Mercedes was Brawn who was Honda who was BAR who was Tyrrell.
Alfa Romeo was Sauber who was BMW Sauber who was Sauber.
Aston Martin was Racing Point who was Force India (UK) who was Force India (actually in India) who was Spyker who was Midland who was Jordan.

But McLaren has always been McLaren, Haas has always been Haas, Williams has always been Williams and Ferrari has always been Ferrari.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Completely different teams, and they went to court to decide who owned the name Lotus.

This.

It was really, really complicated. Basically, there was a fight over who owned the naming rights for the car company (Lotus) versus the racing team (Team Lotus -- and then this got more complicated as that name was leased to another party with restrictions). And then both claimed they had the right to enter the name Lotus in F1.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

BTW, is there an F1 rule against Red Bull sending out a team order to Alpha Tauri for them say to help Max?

Remember when I mentioned that engine manufacturers end up with more votes than just their team as they also dictate the votes to their supplied teams?

See where I'm going with this? There are a lot of pit lane shenanigans when it comes to team orders beyond simply owning a team.

BTW, even though Red Bull owns AlphaTauri/Toro Rosso, AlphaTauri still has to build their own car. They can get no more design information from Red Bull beyond what the rules allow any more than what Haas can get from Ferrari.

 

[Kepler]

Remember when I mentioned that engine manufacturers end up with more votes than just their team as they also dictate the votes to their supplied teams?

See where I'm going with this? There are a lot of pit lane shenanigans when it comes to team orders beyond simply owning a team.

BTW, even though Red Bull owns AlphaTauri/Toro Rosso, AlphaTauri still has to build their own car. They can get no more design information from Red Bull beyond what the rules allow any more than what Haas can get from Ferrari.

Was that what the "Secret Deal" scandal involved?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Was that what the "Secret Deal" scandal involved?

Umm, are you talking about the Force India design issue a couple of years ago when they were referred to as the Pink Mercedes?

If so, that was legal, though many teams didn't like it. Force India pushed the design sharing rules to the limit. But, it did cause the FIA to tighten the design sharing rules to limit it further.

 

[Kepler]

Umm, are you talking about the Force India design issue a couple of years ago when they were referred to as the Pink Mercedes?

I'm talking about one where there was a controversy about somebody getting an assist from Mercedes on a part but after the window in which those exchanges were allowed. I can't remember if it was Stroll, but I believe it was Mr. Ginger Spice who filed the compliant with F1 about it. But now that I think about it, the Secret Deal was Ferrari and something to do with fuel flow, so that was a completely different situation.

So it seems like the hierarchy of power is:

1) The engine manufacturer
2) The biggest sponsor
3) The team's actual owner
4) The principal

Let's say Mercedes wants Williams' Latifi to let Russell pass, and Latifi's daddy says no. Who wins that battle?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Let's say Mercedes wants Williams' Latifi to let Russell pass, and Latifi's daddy says no. Who wins that battle?

Mercedes. Mainly because Latifi's dad wouldn't even be on the radio... So, Williams would tell Latifi to let Russell by, and that would be that.