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Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
- Thread starter alfablue
- Start date
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
With the exception of ovals like Indy or Milwaukee, the ones that don't allow constant side by side driving, and force drivers to really drive, he's right. And Robin Miller said the same thing last night.
Are you opposed to the opinion of running on ovals, or the facts that the risks are WAY higher of going airborne on tracks like that, just due to the constant ability to be 3 wide?
Bring back the historic flat ovals. These 220mph 1.5m ovals, I can deal without seeing.
With the exception of ovals like Indy or Milwaukee, the ones that don't allow constant side by side driving, and force drivers to really drive, he's right. And Robin Miller said the same thing last night.
Are you opposed to the opinion of running on ovals, or the facts that the risks are WAY higher of going airborne on tracks like that, just due to the constant ability to be 3 wide?
Bring back the historic flat ovals. These 220mph 1.5m ovals, I can deal without seeing.
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
I think what Miller said and what Johnson are saying are two different things. I think Miller doesn't like high banked ovals but Johnson is saying that Indycars don't belong on ovals period. Which I believe is wrong. I do think Indycar needs to run on ovals, which one's are not for me to say from a safety standpoint. I'm not an expert on that. I do know that I don't enjoy the high banked oval racing as it is more about the biggest set of balls than who is the best driver/car on any particular day (one of the reasons I don't watch Daytona anymore). I do prefer flat-ish ovals or small high banked ovals as that makes driver skill and car setup paramount and not bravery.
I think what Miller said and what Johnson are saying are two different things. I think Miller doesn't like high banked ovals but Johnson is saying that Indycars don't belong on ovals period. Which I believe is wrong. I do think Indycar needs to run on ovals, which one's are not for me to say from a safety standpoint. I'm not an expert on that. I do know that I don't enjoy the high banked oval racing as it is more about the biggest set of balls than who is the best driver/car on any particular day (one of the reasons I don't watch Daytona anymore). I do prefer flat-ish ovals or small high banked ovals as that makes driver skill and car setup paramount and not bravery.
Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
There may be some ovals like Vegas where they just can't race. Ovals are fine if you have to lift and brake in the corners. Hopefully more HP and less downforce in the new cars will make this happen. Then there will be less of this pathetic to watch NASCAR type drafting. Also, those gawd awefull ugly rear fender things on the new cars should greatly reduce the odds of getting launched as well.
There may be some ovals like Vegas where they just can't race. Ovals are fine if you have to lift and brake in the corners. Hopefully more HP and less downforce in the new cars will make this happen. Then there will be less of this pathetic to watch NASCAR type drafting. Also, those gawd awefull ugly rear fender things on the new cars should greatly reduce the odds of getting launched as well.
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
They're two approaches to the same issue. Johnson is decrying the pack racing and the higher probability for a multi-car wreck that will put cars airborne. It looks like Miller's argument is that you can still have oval racing without that risk as long as you don't run on the banked ovals where the cars are WOT all the way around.
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/video-dan-wheldon-tribute
I defer to Robin Miller on all of this. afterall I wasn't around for the 50's-60'-70's racing, my first race was 81 or 82.
preferred ovals would be Milwaukee and Indy, and any other where the drivers have to actually drive and are NOT flat-out the entire time, I agree with that.
Miller mentions the Hanford wing and bringing that back IF the series wants to say on 1.5 ovals. that would be fun as hell but I also remember Michael Andretti and Juan Montoya saying it was too dangerous.
problems with these cars on ovals have never been as glaring as they've been the last 10-12 years. up until 98-99 or so they seemed fine. I think the pack racing is part of the problem to be sure but don't know how to solve it as you still want close finishes or at least a decent race for 1st place. I don't know. what we're they doing in 95 that worked so well?
on the flipside
Jimmy Johnson comes across like someone who doesn't understand the history of these cars, period. They used to call them Big Cars in milwaukee. "when the Big Cars come to town" and by that people meant these were the INDY 500 guys, the real drivers and also (unfortunately) the more critical real danger as well. While I want these races to be as safe as possible Johnson and others like him need to understand that Gonzalo Rodriguez, Jeff Krosnoff, Senna, Ratzenberger, and so many others perished on road or street courses. quite simply, these guys can go in an instant at any race or practice. I think it's pretty ****ing unfair and classless monday morning quarter-backing on JJ's part to say this now.
*if* that's truly your feelings there's a time and place for it. just not immediately after someone dies...
.02
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/video-dan-wheldon-tribute
I defer to Robin Miller on all of this. afterall I wasn't around for the 50's-60'-70's racing, my first race was 81 or 82.
preferred ovals would be Milwaukee and Indy, and any other where the drivers have to actually drive and are NOT flat-out the entire time, I agree with that.
Miller mentions the Hanford wing and bringing that back IF the series wants to say on 1.5 ovals. that would be fun as hell but I also remember Michael Andretti and Juan Montoya saying it was too dangerous.
problems with these cars on ovals have never been as glaring as they've been the last 10-12 years. up until 98-99 or so they seemed fine. I think the pack racing is part of the problem to be sure but don't know how to solve it as you still want close finishes or at least a decent race for 1st place. I don't know. what we're they doing in 95 that worked so well?
on the flipside
Jimmy Johnson comes across like someone who doesn't understand the history of these cars, period. They used to call them Big Cars in milwaukee. "when the Big Cars come to town" and by that people meant these were the INDY 500 guys, the real drivers and also (unfortunately) the more critical real danger as well. While I want these races to be as safe as possible Johnson and others like him need to understand that Gonzalo Rodriguez, Jeff Krosnoff, Senna, Ratzenberger, and so many others perished on road or street courses. quite simply, these guys can go in an instant at any race or practice. I think it's pretty ****ing unfair and classless monday morning quarter-backing on JJ's part to say this now.
*if* that's truly your feelings there's a time and place for it. just not immediately after someone dies...
.02
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
No he's not. He specifically states that Indycar should not be on ovals. Period.
I think I recall reading somewhere that the Hanford device wouldn't work on the modern Indycar due to the downforce created.
Totally agree.
No he's not. He specifically states that Indycar should not be on ovals. Period.
I think I recall reading somewhere that the Hanford device wouldn't work on the modern Indycar due to the downforce created.
Totally agree.
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
And his reason is the danger due to the pack racing and the likelihood of a multi-car wreck that will put a car airborne.
RaceBoarder
Waiting for the Snow to fly...
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
I'm not sure I want to open this can of worms, but I do think that we need to get these cars off of the 1.5 mile ovals.. The IRL has had an inherent problem with these cars getting airborne on these tracks... Look at the 2000s... The term "Flying Crapwagon" was more than relevant... That is where the problem lies... The most severe wrecks (Davy Hamilton, Tony Renna, Kenny Brack, Dan Wheldon off the top of my head) all involved cars getting up and into the catch fencing... The problem isn't the cars hitting the wall... It's the fencing just coming through and tearing these cars up... Honestly, we are lucky there hasn't been more problems... I know several cars have gone airborne over the years at Chicagoland without getting into the fencing...
That being said, I don't believe that the aerodynamics are picking the cars up like in the early 2000s... It's more one car running over the rear or wheel of a car and using the lead car as a ramp... Still a major problem, especially when you include the fan's safety as well... We've been lucky in that respect... I can't remember what exactly led to the tire ending up in the stands in Charlotte, but that can't happen again without dire consequences to the racing world...
Give these drivers space to do their thing... Fans are gonna complain that it's not exciting, but it needs to be done from a safety standpoint...
I'm not sure I want to open this can of worms, but I do think that we need to get these cars off of the 1.5 mile ovals.. The IRL has had an inherent problem with these cars getting airborne on these tracks... Look at the 2000s... The term "Flying Crapwagon" was more than relevant... That is where the problem lies... The most severe wrecks (Davy Hamilton, Tony Renna, Kenny Brack, Dan Wheldon off the top of my head) all involved cars getting up and into the catch fencing... The problem isn't the cars hitting the wall... It's the fencing just coming through and tearing these cars up... Honestly, we are lucky there hasn't been more problems... I know several cars have gone airborne over the years at Chicagoland without getting into the fencing...
That being said, I don't believe that the aerodynamics are picking the cars up like in the early 2000s... It's more one car running over the rear or wheel of a car and using the lead car as a ramp... Still a major problem, especially when you include the fan's safety as well... We've been lucky in that respect... I can't remember what exactly led to the tire ending up in the stands in Charlotte, but that can't happen again without dire consequences to the racing world...
Give these drivers space to do their thing... Fans are gonna complain that it's not exciting, but it needs to be done from a safety standpoint...
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
I'd like to think that the new cars "fenders" in the rear will prevent people from launching over each other.
I have a question in regard to the front tires: do they not use tethers anymore? the right-front came perilously close to coming into the cockpit of the Verizon car.
not sure about taking them off 1.5 milers but if Robin Miller is saying it I'm going to have to trust him. especially if someone like a mario or michael would echo those comments.
it sucks, and I'm hardly believing it because these cars have ALWAYS been on ovals, preceding nascar by about 50 years.
the other side of this is we're all shocked because this has been infrequent in our recent past: Wheldon (2011), Dana (2006), Moore and Rodriguez (99) and beyond that IIRC the rest were at INDY and because they were mainly practice accidents we don't get the coverage and most of us are not/were not watching live so the shock is less severe. Will we all feel the same in January? will Robin Miller feel the same? will Randy Bernard endure?
whatever happens this is my favorite form of sport (F1 and Indycar) along with NCAA hockey and I just hope (selfishly) that this can be worked through to a satisfactory end (esp. from a drivers perspective)...
god this sucks. My dad told me in 1968 he was living in Chicago and put his flag at 1/2 staff when the great Jim Clark perished. he told me no-one new who Jim Clark was amongst his friends and they were perplexed. Like I tried to explain to friends about #99 and now #77 this is something that cannot be understood unless you grow up with it.
I really feel sick to my stomach about what's transpired
I'd like to think that the new cars "fenders" in the rear will prevent people from launching over each other.
I have a question in regard to the front tires: do they not use tethers anymore? the right-front came perilously close to coming into the cockpit of the Verizon car.
not sure about taking them off 1.5 milers but if Robin Miller is saying it I'm going to have to trust him. especially if someone like a mario or michael would echo those comments.
it sucks, and I'm hardly believing it because these cars have ALWAYS been on ovals, preceding nascar by about 50 years.
the other side of this is we're all shocked because this has been infrequent in our recent past: Wheldon (2011), Dana (2006), Moore and Rodriguez (99) and beyond that IIRC the rest were at INDY and because they were mainly practice accidents we don't get the coverage and most of us are not/were not watching live so the shock is less severe. Will we all feel the same in January? will Robin Miller feel the same? will Randy Bernard endure?
whatever happens this is my favorite form of sport (F1 and Indycar) along with NCAA hockey and I just hope (selfishly) that this can be worked through to a satisfactory end (esp. from a drivers perspective)...
god this sucks. My dad told me in 1968 he was living in Chicago and put his flag at 1/2 staff when the great Jim Clark perished. he told me no-one new who Jim Clark was amongst his friends and they were perplexed. Like I tried to explain to friends about #99 and now #77 this is something that cannot be understood unless you grow up with it.
I really feel sick to my stomach about what's transpired
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
Johnson's quote is that Indycar should not be on any ovals. While Miller doesn't like high banked ovals only. Those are two different things. I agree that their reasoning may be similar but they're stating two different changes. Miller: No high banked ovals. Johnson: No ovals at all.
Johnson's quote is that Indycar should not be on any ovals. While Miller doesn't like high banked ovals only. Those are two different things. I agree that their reasoning may be similar but they're stating two different changes. Miller: No high banked ovals. Johnson: No ovals at all.
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
The great irony, of course, being that open wheel racing was at it's highest popularity exactly when the cars were not driving in packs.... Can we remember real history of real support over what the loudest fans want?
The great irony, of course, being that open wheel racing was at it's highest popularity exactly when the cars were not driving in packs.... Can we remember real history of real support over what the loudest fans want?
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
Is it even fan driven? Isn't the move to being something of a spec series (which, along with the lack of variation in driving skill requirement on the banked ovals, appears to be the genesis of the pack racing) largely driven by the economics of team ownership?
aparch
Well-known member
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
As a fan of the "Taxicab" racing, I HATED when they added the banking to Las Vegas a few years back. It was a much better race when it took some talent to muscle those cars through the corners (braking, steering, the setups needed). Now they run it much more wide open.
Why was the changes made? Because the "casual" fan and TV Broadcasting partners didn't want to see the lead pack run away single file. They wanted "action!" "Drama!" "Lead Changes!" Tracks like Milwaukee, Rockingham, Darlington, Gateway, Indianapolis Raceway Park, Nashville Fairgrounds, etc. are tracks where the leaders get stretched out and make for "boring" television. I LOVED the Milwaukee Mile for the Trucks/Busch guys because of the skill it took to let off the throttle and jump back on it to get around the corners. But to the casual fan, having the leaders pull away so often while the rest of the pack struggles makes for "bad" racing.
The IRL wanted to build off NASCAR's popularity and started to go to the higher speed tracks. I think there was even an agreement for IRL to share tracks with the "NASCAR stand alone weekends" Camping World Truck Series and/or the Nationwide Series in an effort to draw more fans to open wheel racing. (Stand alone meaning not sharing a track/weekend with Nextel Cup.)
Does IRL end their "partnership" with NASCAR in the name of safety while sacrificing their push for better attendance?
As a fan of the "Taxicab" racing, I HATED when they added the banking to Las Vegas a few years back. It was a much better race when it took some talent to muscle those cars through the corners (braking, steering, the setups needed). Now they run it much more wide open.
Why was the changes made? Because the "casual" fan and TV Broadcasting partners didn't want to see the lead pack run away single file. They wanted "action!" "Drama!" "Lead Changes!" Tracks like Milwaukee, Rockingham, Darlington, Gateway, Indianapolis Raceway Park, Nashville Fairgrounds, etc. are tracks where the leaders get stretched out and make for "boring" television. I LOVED the Milwaukee Mile for the Trucks/Busch guys because of the skill it took to let off the throttle and jump back on it to get around the corners. But to the casual fan, having the leaders pull away so often while the rest of the pack struggles makes for "bad" racing.
The IRL wanted to build off NASCAR's popularity and started to go to the higher speed tracks. I think there was even an agreement for IRL to share tracks with the "NASCAR stand alone weekends" Camping World Truck Series and/or the Nationwide Series in an effort to draw more fans to open wheel racing. (Stand alone meaning not sharing a track/weekend with Nextel Cup.)
Does IRL end their "partnership" with NASCAR in the name of safety while sacrificing their push for better attendance?
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
FIA is now helping w/the investigation. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95518
and some are calling this Indycar's "Senna moment", and it probably is.
FIA is now helping w/the investigation. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95518
and some are calling this Indycar's "Senna moment", and it probably is.
WeAreNDHockey
\../ \../
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
I don't follow FIA racing too closely. Anyone able to summarize some of the major safety changes in F1 that came from that horrible weekend in 1994? Car design? Horsepower? Track improvements? I do recall after Greg Moore's passing, California and Michigan both paved their entire backstretch area, a simple fix that would quite possibly have saved his life had it been done sooner.
Is the fix something as simple as continuing to race on high banked 1.5 ovals but finding a way to drastically reduce the speeds? Rusty Wallace did an "unofficial" test at Talladega early in this century with an unrestricted engine and reportedly turned a lap that was 30 MPH faster than the cars normally do there (190 MPH range, give or take a few MPHs depending on a number of factors). Not only do speeds in the 190 MPH range help keep the cars on the track and out of the stands, it gives each driver a split second more to react to what is happening around them. Had the cars at LVMS been travelling at 190-200MPH, maybe that's all that would have been needed to turn a tragic accident into merely an expensive one for 2 or 3 teams.
Of course, NASCAR has been flush with cash for a long time now, and creating what amounts to 4 fairly different types of cars and engines for the different types of tracks isn't as daunting to the majority of race teams. In IndyCar that would be a huge issue. While following IndyCar much closer and generally preferring it to NASCAR I admit to knowing a lot less about it from a technical standpoint, so major differences in engine construction from a road/street course to Indianapolis to a high banked track may not be feasible.
I don't follow FIA racing too closely. Anyone able to summarize some of the major safety changes in F1 that came from that horrible weekend in 1994? Car design? Horsepower? Track improvements? I do recall after Greg Moore's passing, California and Michigan both paved their entire backstretch area, a simple fix that would quite possibly have saved his life had it been done sooner.
Is the fix something as simple as continuing to race on high banked 1.5 ovals but finding a way to drastically reduce the speeds? Rusty Wallace did an "unofficial" test at Talladega early in this century with an unrestricted engine and reportedly turned a lap that was 30 MPH faster than the cars normally do there (190 MPH range, give or take a few MPHs depending on a number of factors). Not only do speeds in the 190 MPH range help keep the cars on the track and out of the stands, it gives each driver a split second more to react to what is happening around them. Had the cars at LVMS been travelling at 190-200MPH, maybe that's all that would have been needed to turn a tragic accident into merely an expensive one for 2 or 3 teams.
Of course, NASCAR has been flush with cash for a long time now, and creating what amounts to 4 fairly different types of cars and engines for the different types of tracks isn't as daunting to the majority of race teams. In IndyCar that would be a huge issue. While following IndyCar much closer and generally preferring it to NASCAR I admit to knowing a lot less about it from a technical standpoint, so major differences in engine construction from a road/street course to Indianapolis to a high banked track may not be feasible.
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Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner on these tracks, considering how tight they have run over the last 5 years on the 1.5 milers. Call me a little dense, but in the accident, there was 1 car that really flew up from behind, didn't look to slow at all, when all the action occured and got propelled in the fence - was that Wheldon?
The amount of oval testing needs to get ramped up on the new cars before the panic button gets pushed and certain types of tracks get dropped. I'm confident there's plenty of time for the IRL to ensure these cars have enough HP and less grip so they have to brake in every corner of every oval.
I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner on these tracks, considering how tight they have run over the last 5 years on the 1.5 milers. Call me a little dense, but in the accident, there was 1 car that really flew up from behind, didn't look to slow at all, when all the action occured and got propelled in the fence - was that Wheldon?
The amount of oval testing needs to get ramped up on the new cars before the panic button gets pushed and certain types of tracks get dropped. I'm confident there's plenty of time for the IRL to ensure these cars have enough HP and less grip so they have to brake in every corner of every oval.
manurespreader
Still upright
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
I raced open wheel cars for 11 years in the 70's and 80's starting out in FF and working my way up, and personally the pack racing is a problem.The cars tend to get pretty twitchy at speed so you need a little space.
Also I saw the movie " Senna" today at a theater in nyc, and it is a must see movie. Absolutely fantastic. Hopefully it gets into wider release.
I raced open wheel cars for 11 years in the 70's and 80's starting out in FF and working my way up, and personally the pack racing is a problem.The cars tend to get pretty twitchy at speed so you need a little space.
Also I saw the movie " Senna" today at a theater in nyc, and it is a must see movie. Absolutely fantastic. Hopefully it gets into wider release.
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
I'd say yes, but not for the reason of safety. It's about time that high end open wheel racing look back and sees that CART's best years still ran on ovals- Indy, Milwaukee, and Phoenix- none of which were pack or close racing.
NASCAR and open wheel racing should be seen as different. They always have been, and always will be. Better is in the eye of the beholder. But without a doubt, different.
IndyCar needs to stop trying to be open wheel NASCAR, and just be IndyCar. You don't need tight, pack racing to be appealing. Heck, you don't even need different cars to be appealing (there were years where it was still great racing when it was all March/Cosworths). A good mix of hard to drive ovals plus street courses plus road courses will be fine.
I'd say yes, but not for the reason of safety. It's about time that high end open wheel racing look back and sees that CART's best years still ran on ovals- Indy, Milwaukee, and Phoenix- none of which were pack or close racing.
NASCAR and open wheel racing should be seen as different. They always have been, and always will be. Better is in the eye of the beholder. But without a doubt, different.
IndyCar needs to stop trying to be open wheel NASCAR, and just be IndyCar. You don't need tight, pack racing to be appealing. Heck, you don't even need different cars to be appealing (there were years where it was still great racing when it was all March/Cosworths). A good mix of hard to drive ovals plus street courses plus road courses will be fine.
Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204618704576645651553992120.html
So, now we're doing two?
This really becomes "I'll believe it when I see it".
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204618704576645651553992120.html
So, now we're doing two?
This really becomes "I'll believe it when I see it".