Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Since we all agree on Vettel's passing problems, I'll throw this thought out there: Is Vettel the most underwhelming world champion ever? I can't recall a driver who won it all who never really "fought" for positions.

Ever or for a given season?

While Mikey would punt drivers off the road to win, he also won a few of his Ferrari championships in a very, very boring manner. Fought so hard that Rubens gave him a race in the last corner of a race.... So if the measure is a single season, Mike was easily more underwhelming. (and even now, Rosberg seems to be a better passer, mike a better blocker)

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Since we all agree on Vettel's passing problems, I'll throw this thought out there: Is Vettel the most underwhelming world champion ever? I can't recall a driver who won it all who never really "fought" for positions.

I wasn't terribly impressed by Button, but I should reserve judgment on that as i missed about 1/3 of the races that year.

really w/the car Vettel has if he can't pass solid competition he's just not that good, and that tells me any of Hamilton, Weber (yeah, we know he doesn't exactly have the same car) Alonso, Massa, and possibly Rosberg and Petrov could do the same type of job

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Airport courses take the worst part of street courses (flat no elevation change) and combine it with the worst part of road courses (too much run off so there is no real penalty for a mistake) and combine them. Ugh.

I would have thought that the fact that going off would typically cost you at least 30 seconds would be a significant penalty (though I haven't watched one of these races, so I don't know how accurate my estimate is).

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

I wasn't terribly impressed by Button, but I should reserve judgment on that as i missed about 1/3 of the races that year.

I have to agree here. In recent memory, I think Button is the most underwhelming champion. While I think Button is a decent driver and I like him, I think that championship was 90% blown diffuser and 10% him. I think Buttons strengths are (1) easy on tires, (2) rarely has a mistake on track; (3) setup and feedback to the engineers. But overtaking? Not so much.

really w/the car Vettel has if he can't pass solid competition he's just not that good, and that tells me any of Hamilton, Weber (yeah, we know he doesn't exactly have the same car) Alonso, Massa, and possibly Rosberg and Petrov could do the same type of job

Back in April this is how I ranked the drivers..

As far as drivers go...in the dry weather they have IMO the #1 (Alonso) and the #4 (Massa) drivers in F1. And in case anyone is wondering, here are my top 10 current dry weather drivers:

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Massa
5. Button
6. Weber
7. Sutil
8. Rosberg
9. Schumi
10. Heidfeld

Please note this list is just off the top of my head. I reserve the right to change my mind upon further review.

Today I think I would swap Sutil and Rosberg, leave off Heidfeld and add Petrov.

I would have thought that the fact that going off would typically cost you at least 30 seconds would be a significant penalty (though I haven't watched one of these races, so I don't know how accurate my estimate is).

Your are correct in that they loose time but with compared to smacking a wall and ending their race it isn't that stiff of a "penalty". Also add in the fact that Indycar officials have decided to act like Nascar and every time someone even remotely spins they throw the yellow. It doesn't matter if they are 100 yards off the course and not in harms way. So if the yellow is thrown and they can keep their car running then they loose some time. Not a huge deal.


Oh and did anyone catch Hamilton (basically) telling his engineer to shut and not talk to him when he is fighting for postion? Ha! I thought that was quite funny. I mean seriously they know what the driver is dealing with and yet they still yap at him when he's trying an overtaking move. Brilliant!

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

I read this morning that among the many changes to the FIA rules for 2014 one that I find very interesting is:

The cars will have to move under electrical power only in the pit lane. Engine ignition and fuel systems must be shut off. This has a number of ramifications. To ensure there is enough power to move the cars quickly in and out of the pit lane, the capacity of energy recovery systems has been increased to 120kW. To ensure that amount of power is available, in addition to the mechanical energy recovery system (today's KERS) there will be allowed a heat energy recovery system that operates off the exhaust gases. The most interesting consequence is that the cars will have to carry their own starter motors under the control of the driver, since the engine will need re-starting the moment they exit the pit lane.

It will be interesting to see if this rule actually happens or if the team will whine and the FIA will relent. But if it does take place it certainly will be interesting and my guess is a source of many driver mistakes and car failures.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Your are correct in that they loose time but with compared to smacking a wall and ending their race it isn't that stiff of a "penalty". Also add in the fact that Indycar officials have decided to act like Nascar and every time someone even remotely spins they throw the yellow. It doesn't matter if they are 100 yards off the course and not in harms way. So if the yellow is thrown and they can keep their car running then they loose some time. Not a huge deal.

They ought to throw a local yellow, but not full course (and if Indycar doesn't do local yellows for road races, they ought to). A full course yellow for a spin or an off where they don't need to do anything to clean up the racing line is pretty silly.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

They ought to throw a local yellow, but not full course (and if Indycar doesn't do local yellows for road races, they ought to). A full course yellow for a spin or an off where they don't need to do anything to clean up the racing line is pretty silly.

Indycar has local yellows. However, I think most turn into full coarse yellows because the cars do not have starters and most driver's inability to not stall the car during a spin, the local yellows are infrequent.

 

[JuveGG24]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Owner's manual for Red Bull F1 car

Review makes it look like it's heavily edited by Red Bull and doesn't have some of the more advanced technologies, but still a good pick up for fans.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Fun F1 race this morning- Hungary started a rather unusual wet, and that focused that the Red Bull is not quite perfect, relative to the other cars.

Once in the lead, Hamilton was able to pull away from Vettel. Too bad he spun, and then the team then mis-managed his tire strategy like they did. Thankfully, he got past weber after what appeared to be a rather poor penalty for trying to get back into the race. It's not as if other drivers risk cars behind them to get back into a race after a spind- particularly on the first lap. He was in the lead, and wating for the lapped cars to pass would have guarunteed that he would have ended up 3rd.

Great drive by Button. Wonderful tire management. And to win his 200th start- that should be memorable.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Fun F1 race this morning- Hungary started a rather unusual wet, and that focused that the Red Bull is not quite perfect, relative to the other cars.

Once in the lead, Hamilton was able to pull away from Vettel. Too bad he spun, and then the team then mis-managed his tire strategy like they did. Thankfully, he got past weber after what appeared to be a rather poor penalty for trying to get back into the race. It's not as if other drivers risk cars behind them to get back into a race after a spind- particularly on the first lap. He was in the lead, and wating for the lapped cars to pass would have guarunteed that he would have ended up 3rd.

Great drive by Button. Wonderful tire management. And to win his 200th start- that should be memorable.

Excellent race by Button and McLaren. Nice to see RB getting beat.

Got to disagree with you about Hamilton's penalty. Hamilton got what he deserved for the move to get back facing correctly after his spin. When Sutil (or was it Di Resta?) had to go way off track to avoid Hamilton that was just too dangerous. No need to unnecessarily endanger others because he can't keep his car from spinning. It shouldn't matter if he was in first or 21st. Dumb move with traffic coming like that.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Excellent race by Button and McLaren. Nice to see RB getting beat.

Got to disagree with you about Hamilton's penalty. Hamilton got what he deserved for the move to get back facing correctly after his spin. When Sutil (or was it Di Resta?) had to go way off track to avoid Hamilton that was just too dangerous. No need to unnecessarily endanger others because he can't keep his car from spinning. It shouldn't matter if he was in first or 21st. Dumb move with traffic coming like that.

having seen a replay of the spin and getting back in, I stand by my opinion. Hamilton was blocking the track, and whoever it was would have HAD to have gone off track regardless if Lewis tried to re-join or not. Hamilton HAD to do something, else the track was blocked.

So he should get a penalty for spinning? Drivers get a penalty for trying hard?

Plus, it happened so fast, the corner workers probably didn't react at all. He had nobody to look at, AND he's leading the race, trying to keep the position.

These guys know the risks, so the whole "risking other drivers" does not resonate at all with me, especially since nobody touched anyone else.

 

[Runsub5]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Congratulations to Button on his 200th Formula 1 race. Nice to come away with a win. McLaren has reeled in Red Bull but Ferrari isn't quite there yet.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

having seen a replay of the spin and getting back in, I stand by my opinion. Hamilton was blocking the track, and whoever it was would have HAD to have gone off track regardless if Lewis tried to re-join or not. Hamilton HAD to do something, else the track was blocked.

So he should get a penalty for spinning? Drivers get a penalty for trying hard?

Plus, it happened so fast, the corner workers probably didn't react at all. He had nobody to look at, AND he's leading the race, trying to keep the position.

These guys know the risks, so the whole "risking other drivers" does not resonate at all with me, especially since nobody touched anyone else.

I agree Hamilton should have done something just not what he did. He was p i s s e d and without thinking spun his car back around without care for the other drivers on the track and that IMO is why he got the penalty (regardless of what the FIA states).

The HRT and Virgin (?) car both made it by Hamilton without going off track and before he made his move to correct his positioning. So the Force India car had to move wide only because of Hamiton's actions. It a weak excuse to try to blame the corner workers or anyone else. He's sitting facing the mostly the wrong way! He could certainly see cars was coming at him.

And I said unnecessarily risking other drivers. Sitting tight until those three cars passed him by would have been the better move or correcting his position to his driver's right side of the track.

It's OK I understand that you're a Hamilton fan. I would be complaining too if it was a Ferrari driver.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

He's sitting facing the mostly the wrong way! He could certainly see cars was coming at him.

This is the part I don't get- he's facing the wrong way, can see cars coming at him, and everyone expects him to sit there and do nothing? I don't see very many drivers out there who would have done that. I'm pretty sure I would have done *something* out of panic, to get out of their way.

I would fully expect Alonso and Masa to do exactly the same thing, first to avoid contact with the oncoming cars, and second to get back into the race lead.

Heck- they are backmarkers- they can come to a full stop, and nobody would notice.

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

This is the part I don't get- he's facing the wrong way, can see cars coming at him, and everyone expects him to sit there and do nothing? I don't see very many drivers out there who would have done that. I'm pretty sure I would have done *something* out of panic, to get out of their way.

I would fully expect Alonso and Masa to do exactly the same thing, first to avoid contact with the oncoming cars, and second to get back into the race lead.

Heck- they are backmarkers- they can come to a full stop, and nobody would notice.

Come on, Alfa read my whole post. I said I expected Hamilton to either sit tight until those three passed him (yeah, very tough to do) or to move to his driver's right to get out of the way and correct his position.

Yup I expect Alonso or Massa to do something and I would like to think they would have made the smarter move and not do what Hamilton did. I'll admit there is probably little chance that Massa (even though he is my favorite driver) would do the smart thing. Alonso might do something smart there and then again maybe not.

All as I know is when I was watching the race and I saw his move I said to myself "Whoa that wasn't smart and they better penalize him for it." I guess the bottom line for me is that I understand why the stewards gave him the drive though and I don't think it was an out of line penalty.

The only driver who would notice if the backmarkers stopped is Vettel because he would be whining and crying about them slowing him down. And that is just because he can't overtake.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Vettel just shows us again how he can't pass.

Ferarri sure screwed up the tyre strategy. It was also a bummer to see Alonso make so many mistakes in the wet. I was so hoping for a downpour and watch them crawl around the track and spin off left and right. I recall a race in Bazil many years ago when that happened.

If you spin like Hamilton did, you have make sure you re-enter in a safe manor. The first 2 cars dodged him well enough, he should have waited for the 3rd. He knew what was at stake, and basically said, "screw it". It's one thing to be facing in a direction where you can't see what's coming and re-enter vs seeing what is coming.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Just watched the video again, as well as an interview. He didn't wait to get back into the race- just like every single other driver who spins and ends up on the track, there was barely a pause to come to rest. And there was more risk to hit the second sauber vs. the Force India- you could see that from the driver's camera. And interviews- he didn't see DiResta, and just accepted the penalty.

Being that drivers spin and get back on very regularly, and even when they go off track, they are very aggressive getting back on- I still don't see how this one is so different that it required a penalty. If this is that bad, then the organizers need to dole out a lot more drive through's.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

Just watched the video again, as well as an interview. He didn't wait to get back into the race- just like every single other driver who spins and ends up on the track, there was barely a pause to come to rest. And there was more risk to hit the second sauber vs. the Force India- you could see that from the driver's camera. And interviews- he didn't see DiResta, and just accepted the penalty.

Being that drivers spin and get back on very regularly, and even when they go off track, they are very aggressive getting back on- I still don't see how this one is so different that it required a penalty. If this is that bad, then the organizers need to dole out a lot more drive through's.

I don't think what he did was horrific by any means, but I can see the call. It's not a left field thing like Helio @ Edmonton last year or what Franchitti did to Power at Toronto (and got no penalty).

 

[alfablue]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

To change subjects, so that I don't get too down on myself, since nothing's going to change no matter what I post....

It's the summer break for F1, so 3 weeks break until they get to Spa.

Got a news update from GP Tours- apparently Helmut Marko has announced that Mark Weber will retire at the end of next season.... I wonder how he knows?

RBR announced a new rear diffuser for Spa, but I'm sure Ferrari and McLaren will work on it as well. A more pressing question is if ANY of the rest of the teams will show any improvement at all. Renault/Lotus is going backward to joing Lotus/Renault. I bet we willl not see Nick in 3 weeks, even if you can't fault that rather spectacular engine failure.

Williams is floundering.

Force India is showing a decent improvement, but will it be enough? Mercedes- who knows.... up down breaking- geez.

Will Red Bull, Ferrari, and/or McLaren get fast enough to start forcing the 107% rule?

 

[MattS]

Re: Open Wheel Racing 2011, hurry, before we downsize your engines....

To change subjects, so that I don't get too down on myself, since nothing's going to change no matter what I post....

It's the summer break for F1, so 3 weeks break until they get to Spa.

Got a news update from GP Tours- apparently Helmut Marko has announced that Mark Weber will retire at the end of next season.... I wonder how he knows?

RBR announced a new rear diffuser for Spa, but I'm sure Ferrari and McLaren will work on it as well. A more pressing question is if ANY of the rest of the teams will show any improvement at all. Renault/Lotus is going backward to joing Lotus/Renault. I bet we willl not see Nick in 3 weeks, even if you can't fault that rather spectacular engine failure.

Williams is floundering.

Force India is showing a decent improvement, but will it be enough? Mercedes- who knows.... up down breaking- geez.

Will Red Bull, Ferrari, and/or McLaren get fast enough to start forcing the 107% rule?

Wow. So Weber is retiring? Nice of RBR to tell him!

I have to agree and I think Quick Nick is done at Renault.

I am surprised to see how well Di Resta is running at Force India. Maybe he can start taking some points from the Sauber/Williams/Renault teams.

I don't see any real development happening at the backmarkers (heck to they even try to develop during the year?), so if the big 3 make some definitive strides then I would not be surprised if they are kept off the grid.