ObamaRama 8

[unofan]

Re: ObamaRama 8

when did the federal gov't get that kind of power?

1930's. The switch in time that saved nine.

 

[unofan]

Re: ObamaRama 8

WHy use this as an example when reality is, they are going to force you to buy health insurance, when did they get that kind of power?

They got that power by saying that no one can be refused emergency medical care.

If we as a society let uninsured people die (especially those in their 20's who could get it but take the gamble that they won't need it then), then so be it. But if we're forced to treat everyone, we might as well make them pay for it.

 

[Rover]

Re: ObamaRama 8

that's a big if there... given your reasoning skills in the Red Sox thread I'm surprised at how cock sure you are about how fantastic this is all going to be.

If this were all candy canes and happy goodness then it'd be easily explainable and indisputable. In fact, I'm going to say that your candy canes and happy goodness is disputable... tell me why its obvious that its all going to work... ALTERNATIVELY tell me why I should trust those who tell me it will work. Maybe you'll be better at that second part. Tell me what these people know... not that "well, this partisan thing worked in the past"... I've got a rock here that keeps tigers away.

For such an intelligent high level person such as yourself this should be easy. But again, given the Red Sox thread I'm not expecting much.

You're full of bitterness and bile Patman. You need to lighten up a bit. Might I suggest a vacation?

Anyway, lets take a few questions here. Nobody thinks everything will work out perfectly. As I've repeatedly said, and will do so one more time for your benefit, any unintended consequences from this bill can be dealt with on a one off basis as they come up. What righties try to do is frame this effort as an ironclad, Constitutional amendment type thing that would be impossible to change if needed. Its not. However, the good in this bill far outweighs and possible negative effects. Not only does it expand coverage, it ALSO reduced the deficit. That's a critical component in all of this, and you'll forgive me if I don't believe that the same people that gave us the unfunded prescription drug benefit are now suddenly deficit watchdogs.

Next, the CBO was the arbiter of fairness when they said a Dem bill cost too much. Now suddenly they're a bunch of partisan hacks in the tank of the Dems when they say this one will reduce the deficit? Puhleeze. How does this sound - these people, professionals from all accounts, get paid and have years of expertise to predict this sort of thing. Now while all estimates can certainly be off, if they're off 25% guess what? it still saves 1T! For someone so suddenly concerned about deficit spending, I'm having trouble figuring out why you wouldn't want to give this a spin around the block.

They got that power by saying that no one can be refused emergency medical care.

If we as a society let uninsured people die (especially those in their 20's who could get it but take the gamble that they won't need it then), then so be it. But if we're forced to treat everyone, we might as well make them pay for it.

Exactly.

 

[walrus]

Re: ObamaRama 8

, we might as well make them pay for it.

fat chance of that, you mean you and I pay for it anyway

 

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: ObamaRama 8

They won't have to do that. Gay marriage will come as soon as the old curmudgions die off and the electorate changes naturally.

Oh, isn't that just great news.

 

[unofan]

Re: ObamaRama 8

fat chance of that, you mean you and I pay for it anyway

Which is exactly why the single payer public option makes sense at the emergency and catastrophic levels, and why it's stupid to have health care reform without it. If we're paying for it anyway, then just pay for it for all of us and take it out of our paychecks like medicare.

Somewhat related, I still can't get over the absolute disconnect in the TV ads around here. "Tell Ben Nelson we can't afford health care reform!" followed immediately by "Tell Ben Nelson that cutting medicare will kill Granny!" - So we can afford to spend billions on the Selfish Generation (TM), but god forbid we take a couple billion from granny to give to junior?

 

[unofan]

Re: ObamaRama 8

Oh, isn't that just great news.

Yeah, **** kids with their new fangled ideas. How dare they not toe the party line.

Frankly, I don't care one way or another about gay marriage. On my list of priorities for the government, or when deciding who to vote for, it's probably in the bottom 10th percentile.

But the demographics flat out say within 50 years these votes will turn the other way whether the Selfish Generation(TM) likes it or not. And that's assuming that SCOTUS doesn't intervene earlier.

 

[walrus]

Re: ObamaRama 8

Which is exactly why the single payer public option makes sense at the emergency and catastrophic levels, and why it's stupid to have health care reform without it.

Don't worry single payer is coming

 

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: ObamaRama 8

2) I'm terribly amused by the stupidity of the anti-health care arguments.

1.) Who is going to pay for this Universal Healthcare?

2.) Why do I, as a tax payer, have to pay for some one else's healthcare?

3.) What happened to the sense of commodity? Health care is a commodity, not a right.

4.) Why is the Obama administration pushing Healthcare as a "crisis"? 2000+ page bill, that no one can take the time to read shold be voted upon? What kind of diligence is that being exercised by our representatives and senators?!?! All in the name of being the man to get UHC pushed through?

What is wrong with America is the sense of entitlements that white liberals push on the masses who are statistically against UHC and gay marriage, and a host of other liberal agenda items at the cost of the middle class. Ironically, when these things go to vote (for example gay marriage in Maine and California) they are shot down by the voters. Entitlements keep the masses as slaves to the government, and do not produce any success (less the huggy feel good ones).

What is wrong with America, under liberalism, is that it is viewed as wrong by pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, working hard, making a better living than the one your parents provided for you. Traditional values are shunned by the liberals in America, as is military service and Christianity. Entitlements, peace, love, we are one world.

Obama can keep on printing as much paper money as he wants to, but just wait and see what happens when the value of the dollar falls further. No 2 million jobs, the economy is in the stinker, Q4 is traditionally a slow quarter to conduct layoffs, the US had to borrow money from Communist China (lack of human rights discussion from Commrade Obama and did not meet with the Dhali Lama)... yet the US can pony up 100 billion for junk science air quality in third world nations.

The Bell Curve guys were right, as politically incorrect as it appears; the truth are in the numbers.

Ugh, my rant is over, sorry. F liberals.

 

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: ObamaRama 8

Yeah, **** kids with their new fangled ideas. How dare they not toe the party line.

Frankly, I don't care one way or another about gay marriage. On my list of priorities for the government, or when deciding who to vote for, it's probably in the bottom 10th percentile.

But the demographics flat out say within 50 years these votes will turn the other way whether the Selfish Generation(TM) likes it or not. And that's assuming that SCOTUS doesn't intervene earlier.

I am not against gay marriage because of party lines. I am against gay marriage because I consider myself a traditionalist... I do believe it is wrong. That is my opinion, and my whole life I stood by it; and equating gay amrriage to civil rights of black folks is an insult to black folks (who voted majority in California to ban gay marriage). Furthermore, when Obama campaigned he thought the decision shold be up to each state. In effect, saying to the gay folks, "hey, I want your vite, but I do not want to help your cause." They still voted him in, because anyone was better than Bush, right?

 

[unofan]

Re: ObamaRama 8

1.) Who is going to pay for this Universal Healthcare?

2.) Why do I, as a tax payer, have to pay for some one else's healthcare?

You already do. What do you think that medicare deduction on your paystub is? Who do you think pays for medicaid patients? If you've got private insurance, what do you think your premiums go towards (note, it's a good thing if you pay more than you get out of insurance - that means you're healthy)? You already pay for the highest of the high cost patients in medicare, why don't you want to cover lower cost patients as well, spreading the overall risk over more people?

3.) What happened to the sense of commodity? Health care is a commodity, not a right.

That's not how society sees it. Hospitals cannot refuse patients needing emergency medical care. Health care may not be a right by definition, but in practice it most certainly is at some level.

What is wrong with America is the sense of entitlements that white liberals push on the masses who are statistically against UHC and gay marriage, and a host of other liberal agenda items at the cost of the middle class.

How is gay marriage a class issue? Are you really saying there aren't middle class or poor gays?

Ironically, when these things go to vote (for example gay marriage in Maine and California) they are shot down by the voters.

Currently, yes. Like I said though, that will change whether traditionalists, the Religious Right, or anyone else who votes against it likes it or not. I just hope that when the majority shifts, as it will, they respect the majority vote then as much as they're hoping the majority vote is respected now. Sadly, I'm betting that will not be the case.

 

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: ObamaRama 8

You already do. What do you think that medicare deduction on your paystub is? Who do you think pays for medicaid patients? If you've got private insurance, what do you think your premiums go towards (note, it's a good thing if you pay more than you get out of insurance - that means you're healthy)? You already pay for the highest of the high cost patients in medicare, why don't you want to cover lower cost patients as well, spreading the overall risk over more people?



That's not how society sees it. Hospitals cannot refuse patients needing emergency medical care. Health care may not be a right by definition, but in practice it most certainly is at some level.



How is gay marriage a class issue? Are you really saying there aren't middle class or poor gays?



Only til the Selfish Generation (TM) dies off.

I work in a publically traded company. I pay for 10% of my own health insurance, and the company pays the rest. I put my own money into my own retirement funds. I relaize that I am taxed for Medicare/Medaid; however, the rate is rather low. I am not expecting the government to provide me with healthcare or retirement money.

The issue at hand, was Obama campaigned that he'd cut the pork and use that money for UHC. However, our government has only grown since Obama took over with pork. There is a disconnect, and sizable deduction, from the current % of medicare to UHC for an additional 44 million (according to DNC numbers).

I see UHC as a commodity. I also think Obama want sto change America to lean a wee bit left of socialism. Suddenly, we are putting caps on private industry salaries?!? No wonder every company that took stimulus money is returning it!

Obama also campaigned by saying, "... under his plan, your electric bills would increase" so I take it the 100 Billion that Hillary promised to the delegation in Copenhagen will be funded by the us. I am glad the good people of Zimbabwe (while not conducting genocide and tribal warfare) will have clean air!

No, I am saying when gay marriage is put to vote, it is always voted down.

Truth is the Average Joes (that liberals just love to hate) in America are upset at the way Obama is running the country; along with the House/Pelosi's San Francisco Values. Just look at any set of polling numbers. Obama's spending and priorities are out of control, and out of touch with the average American. Personally, I am looking forward to voting again.

 

[Plante26]

Re: ObamaRama 8

Which still ignores the fact that under the Commerce Clause, Congress's power has been expanded exponentially since FDR's days.

If crops grown solely for your own use are considered to be in interstate commerce (see Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942)), a national healthcare plan surely is as well.

This isn't any more unconstitutional than the NRC fining nuclear power plants or the EPA fining anyone and anything.

You're acutally referencing this case:

Roscoe Filburn was a small farmer during the time that FDR’s Department of Agriculture set production quotas for wheat. Filburn’s farm was allowed to grow 11.1 acres of wheat; he planted an additional 12 acres of wheat. The additional 12 acres of wheat were for his personal consumption and feeding his livestock. Once cognizant of his transgression, FDR’s government summarily assailed Filburn, even though the excess wheat would never leave the boundaries of his farm, and thus could not, under any conceivable rationale, affect commerce. Filburn was ordered to destroy his wheat (bear in mind that during the Filburn affair, there were soup lines in every city because people did not have enough to eat— the genius of liberals), and pay a fine for being a self-sustaining American, while the majority of citizens were experiencing a dystopian existence as a result of FDR’s policies.

Roscoe Filburn, incidentally, lost his case. The Left, once a fallacious law has been upheld by the Supreme Court (Wickard v Filburn, Roe v Wade, Kelo v City of New London, Katzenbach v McClung, etc.), will clutch that court case and bellow stare decisis when challenged. But the Wickard v Filburn decision usurped 150 years of Supreme Court precedence of limiting the federal government’s regulation to only the transportation of goods across state lines, roads, ports, and rivers.

That makes zero sense.....especially when applied to the health care bill.

 

[blockski]

Re: ObamaRama 8

You're acutally referencing this case:



That makes zero sense.....especially when applied to the health care bill.

Disagree with the cases all you want, that doesn't change the fact that it's the law of the land.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't like Roe v. Wade, but that doesn't mean the law no longer applies.

 

[unofan]

Re: ObamaRama 8

You're acutally referencing this case:



That makes zero sense.....especially when applied to the health care bill.

That was the case that expanded Congress's powers under the Commerce Clause to include almost anything. The holding was that even though Filburn's crops didn't enter interstate commerce, in the aggregate they nevertheless impacted interstate commerce because he would be buying less on the open market.

Indeed, there have only been 2 cases since Wickard v. Filburn that have invalidated a law on Commerce Clause grounds (one being the National "no guns in a school zone" Act, whose real name escapes me. Can't remember the other one off hand). Both of those occured during the Rehnquist Court, and while commentators at the time thought they might mark a resurgence of Commerce Clause cases, they didn't.

Hence, a national healthcare plan surely falls under the scope of the commerce clause, and will, therefore, be deemed Constitutional. All it takes is the government pointing out that a person from New York sought healthcare while on vacation in Florida, and interstate commerce will be found (or, to further the analogy with Wickard, a person from New York cancelling a vacation in Florida because he can't get healthcare down there, thus affecting interstate commerce in the aggregate).

For the record, Wickard was a godawful decision. The only reason it turned out that way was because FDR threatened to pack the court if they continued to rule against him (because previous New Deal laws were being shot down on Commerce Clause grounds). That said, it's still the freaking law, and it's never been overruled.

I'm also curious where you found your snippet, because that's a horrendous legal recap.

 

[Rover]

Re: ObamaRama 8

1.) Who is going to pay for this Universal Healthcare?

2.) Why do I, as a tax payer, have to pay for some one else's healthcare?

3.) What happened to the sense of commodity? Health care is a commodity, not a right.

4.) Why is the Obama administration pushing Healthcare as a "crisis"? 2000+ page bill, that no one can take the time to read shold be voted upon? What kind of diligence is that being exercised by our representatives and senators?!?! All in the name of being the man to get UHC pushed through?

5.) What is wrong with America, under liberalism, is that it is viewed as wrong by pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, working hard, making a better living than the one your parents provided for you. Traditional values are shunned by the liberals in America, as is military service and Christianity. Entitlements, peace, love, we are one world.

Lots of um..interesting...thoughts here. I'll skip the gay marriage and white liberal stuff and answer these.

1) Bill is paid for. Less Medicare spending pays for quite a bit of it, which is money you're already helping to fund.

2) For the same reason, as a taxpayer, you pay for emergency care for people who have decided to try to game the system by not getting insurance. Now your tax dollars are going to cheaper insurance care instead of more expensive ER care. BTW - name me the rock-ribbed, true blue conservative politician out there who wants to make it illegal to treat the uninsured at the ER? Because that's the only other way to make this fair (requiring people to all have insurance).

3) All well and good.....IF the uninsured are being turned away at the ER and not sticking the bills on the rest of us. Either you want to 1) ban uninsured people from giving the rest of us the bill (and kindly tell me who's proposing this) or 2) its your right to receive emergency life saving treatment, hence all should be insured.

4) This has been debated, hashed through, scored, and all the rest for almost a year. No more debate or negotiation will significantly alter what's been accomplished. Anybody saying "start over" is really saying "delay this so it fails and then we can elect Republicans who will have no reason to revisit the issue". That's already been exposed.

5) Stupid on too many levels, but right out of Internet Tough Guy Magazine. What happened when decorated combat vet John Kerry ran for President. Something about how the Army apparently abetted his faking of his medals, despite the testimony of the soldiers who were there with him? And now you claim its conservatives who hold the military sacred? Yeah, maybe a few of them ought to try serving next time (cough Dick Cheney cough).

Also, I really admire the Christianty of Sen Ensign, Vitter, Craig, Gov Sanford, etc - these people should really be looked up to for their morality and adherence to conservative principles.

 

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: ObamaRama 8

Lots of um..interesting...thoughts here.

Also, I really admire the Christianty of Sen Ensign, Vitter, Craig, Gov Sanford, etc - these people should really be looked up to for their morality and adherence to conservative principles.

Maybe they learned a thing or two from FDR, Jack Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and Eliot Spitzer (on an Ethics tour nonetheless!) - these people should really be looked up to for their morality and adherence to liberal principles. Really, both parties have their "Tiger Woods Mishaps" with cheating gay/straight/etc. I was not attacking the left for that. I am attacking the liberals for being so anti-Christian.

- - - -
So basically, you are saying there will be no new taxes for UHC?! LOL, good one, you crack me up.

Entitlements for Illegals! Ooops, I mean "undocumented workers".

 

[Handyman]

Re: ObamaRama 8

This whole thing reminds me of one of the plot points of The American President where the Prez is too concerned with passing a Crime Bill and ignores everything else going on around him. His gf says to him after he screws her Bill on Fossil Fuel Emissions "Well congratulations you just passed a piece of crime prevention legislation that has no chance of preventing crime." (paraphrasing of course)

This "Health Care Reform" has really no chance of reforming health care. Remember folks this was so important they are going to shake up the status quo...err...uhhh...nevermind.

As for Obama and the Dems, they are frauds as are the Repubs. The populace is apathetic and growing less and less educated and everyone is losing. But at least to hardcore people feel good about themselves, mainly because they stopped thinking for themselves years ago.

 

[blockski]

Re: ObamaRama 8

This whole thing reminds me of one of the plot points of The American President where the Prez is too concerned with passing a Crime Bill and ignores everything else going on around him. His gf says to him after he screws her Bill on Fossil Fuel Emissions "Well congratulations you just passed a piece of crime prevention legislation that has no chance of preventing crime." (paraphrasing of course)

This "Health Care Reform" has really no chance of reforming health care. Remember folks this was so important they are going to shake up the status quo...err...uhhh...nevermind.

As for Obama and the Dems, they are frauds as are the Repubs. The populace is apathetic and growing less and less educated and everyone is losing. But at least to hardcore people feel good about themselves, mainly because they stopped thinking for themselves years ago.

Ah yes, an entertaining movie that has nothing to do with how things actually work in Washington.

It's an imperfect bill, to be sure, but it is a marked improvement over the status quo and will only be improved upon in the future.

 

[Rover]

Re: ObamaRama 8

Maybe they learned a thing or two from FDR, Jack Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and Eliot Spitzer (on an Ethics tour nonetheless!) - these people should really be looked up to for their morality and adherence to liberal principles. Really, both parties have their "Tiger Woods Mishaps" with cheating gay/straight/etc. I was not attacking the left for that. I am attacking the liberals for being so anti-Christian.

- - - -
So basically, you are saying there will be no new taxes for UHC?! LOL, good one, you crack me up.

Entitlements for Illegals! Ooops, I mean "undocumented workers".

As you say, both parties are guilty of indiscretions. I don't believe political conservatives are any more upstanding than the politicians they support, or the politicians they oppose. As far as anti-Christian liberals, I'd more say its a live and let live attitude out of the left that conflicts from time to time with relgious teachings, as opposed to an I'm right because I spoke to God personally and he said so take on things.

They'll be some new taxes, but if all that leads to a 1.4T reduction in the debt, that's money well spent IMHO. Right now you're borrowing money to finance the heath care system. Might as well pass the bill and bring down the impact on borrowing.