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Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

there IS a widespread consensus among historians (they hold a vote every ten years or so on the greatest presidents, and of course Washington is always # 1, and deservedly so) that Reagan is one of the five best Presidents we've had.

Speaking of Reagan. Conservatives like to talk about how they are a "Reagan conservative" -- the guy is basically their patron saint, yet today he would be too liberal for them. He believed that the tax rate for capital gains and labor income should be the same. He also raised taxes several times -- something that is basically impossible now. How many people actually think the payroll tax holiday isn't going to become permanent? All it is now is a tool for the parties to use against each other so they can accuse the other party of wanting to raise taxes on the middle class if they don't go along with a bill to extend it. We are being taxed the lowest as a percentage of GDP in our lifetimes, yet the republicans are convincing people that taxes are too high.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Remember the good old days when I admired pretty much just GOP politicians in our state. Dave Durenburger, Arne Carlson. Guys of moderation, pragmatic solutions and consensus building. I feel like the state was swamped by some national body snatcher epidemic. These guys don't even make it to our elections any more.

Now I realize that Reagan was no saint and there are lots of grounds from which to criticize him; at the same time, there IS a widespread consensus among historians (they hold a vote every ten years or so on the greatest presidents, and of course Washington is always # 1, and deservedly so) that Reagan is one of the five best Presidents we've had. So don't argue with me, go out and argue with them. :p

Not to quibble with your point. But...

Lincoln is easily the top rated president (and in my opinion, rightfully so). Recently Washington has slipped to third behind FDR. Although initially Reagan was not given much credit ...over the last decade, he's been typically considered about our 10th best president.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Not to quibble with your point. But...

Lincoln is easily the top rated president (and in my opinion, rightfully so). Recently Washington has slipped to third behind FDR. Although initially Reagan was not given much credit ...over the last decade, he's been typically considered about our 10th best president.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

Very interesting, thanks for posting that!

Whatever my source was, it wasn't included in any of the surveys mentioned in that Wikipedia article...in the source, I recall that all participants agreed that for GHWB, Clinton and GWB it was still "too soon to tell" as not enough time had passed to assess the long-term consequences of those Presidencies, and so they were not even rated at all (these were historians, not political scientists which also participated in some of the surveys cited). Even Reagan was almost "too recent" except that his dismantling of M.A.D. was regarded as such an extraordinary achievement they felt that they had to make note of it. Perhaps it was "greatest Presidential accomplishment" or something and not the entirety of the Presidency that was being assessed? (Chester Arthur was 8th*, I think). I'd have to check my paper files and they are still in storage from our last move..:rolleyes:

Washington was first for the example he set and the way he inspired confidence that the new government in fact would succeed where the previous government had failed (we today cannot fully comprehend how extraordinary that was for those times), Jefferson was second for two things, one of which was the Louisiana purchase, Lincoln was third for preventing the Confederacy from withdrawing from the Union, FDR was a disputed fourth, many of the people surveyed wanted to rate him lower for his questionable economic policies and his attempt to change the number of justices on the Supreme Court, except that his foresight and persistence in preparing the US for war against Hitler won them over, and Reagan was fifth, primarily for ending M.A.D. and also for reinvigorating a moribund national spirit. Eisenhower was sixth for the interstate expressway system, which was very important to the economic boom that followed.


* Arthur was an "accidental President," a career political hack put on the ticket as Vice-President for typical horse-trading vote-getting reasons. Then Garfield was assassinated and Arthur suddenly was President. When his cronies expected him to lavish patronage on them, he said basically "no, the office has a responsibility to the nation as a whole" and he signed the Civil Service Act creating an apolitical career bureaucracy in which hiring and position were based on merit and ability to do the job and were not subject to political affiliation. Of course his own party dumped him after that and he did not even have a chance to run for re-election.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Very interesting, thanks for posting that!

Whatever my source was,
Did it happen the be the Heritage Foundation or Hoover Institute?
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I'd say about 75% of US voters are liberal and also that about 75% of US voters are conservative because in real life these are not mutually exclusive terms. Only political fanatics obsessed with party in-fighting think that you can only be one or the other, regular folk are quite comfortable being both at the same time with no discomfort at all.

The liberal tradition extends from Locke to Jefferson to Martin Luther King Jr to Daniel Patrick Moynihan and stresses (1) individual liberty, (2) free markets, (3) the potential worth and value of each person. The antithesis to the liberal is the totalitarian. Today, the fashionable term for totalitarian is "progressive": we know what's best for you better than you know yourself; we must control every aspect of your life for your own good.

Conservative tradition runs from Burke to Franklin and the drafters of the Constitution to John Paul II and stresses (1) respect the wisdom of your elders, (2) individual responsibility and initiative, and (3) all human beings are fallible, hence the need for separation of powers and checks and balances. The antithesis to the conservative is the radical. As Karl Marx might say, "'Tradition' is merely a tool used by those in power to oppress the rest of us; government is a tool of the elite used to keep the masses in check." If Karl Marx were alive today, he'd be an ardent supporter of the Tea Party; he understood with perfect clarity that no government "cares" about regular people, the only thing that people in government care about is remaining in power.

The etymology of "liberal" is from "liberty."

Interestingly, "conservation" and "conservative" have the same etymology. Many sound environmental policies come from hunters and fishers! For example; with the elimination of natural predators, ungulates would over-breed, over-graze, and then have huge death rates due to the resulting food shortages; hence the use of Dept of Conservation personnel to survey game populations and determine how many hunting permits to issue each year, in order to maintain a stable and healthy ungulate population.

This potent combination of liberal AND conservative explains the domestic appeal of Reagan's political coalition, and the astounding success that Reagan / Thatcher / John Paul II had in winning the Cold War: they made liberty and freedom such a strong moral issue that the Communist leaders came to quail at the prospect of suppressing their own people by violent force. By a direct appeal to both the liberal and the conservative tradition they made an enormously effective force.

Ironically, the reason that Reagan decided to win the Cold War was because, when he became President, he became responsible for our nuclear arsenal. He found the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction to be morally repugnant, not to mention crazy as well. It was his principled rejection of M.A.D. that "forced" him to find another way to end the stalemate.

Now I realize that Reagan was no saint and there are lots of grounds from which to criticize him; at the same time, there IS a widespread consensus among historians (they hold a vote every ten years or so on the greatest presidents, and of course Washington is always # 1, and deservedly so) that Reagan is one of the five best Presidents we've had. So don't argue with me, go out and argue with them. :p

For those of you too young to remember the 1970s, you have no idea how much he changed the mood and the course of our nation. There's a lot of revisionist history going around these days in which people rewrite what happened after the fact in order retroactively to suit a prevailing present-day narrative, even though said narrative did not even exist at the time the original events were occuring.
I hate this post, for one simple reason. In what is otherwise a very reasonable post in which you make some very well-taken points, you also called me and most of my friends, and millions of other Americans "totalitarians," and you did it in such an unassuming way that some people might totally miss the utter insanity of it.

Progressive is a fashionable term for totalitarian? That's so f-ing crazy I can't even begin to process it.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Washington was first for the example he set and the way he inspired confidence that the new government in fact would succeed where the previous government had failed (we today cannot fully comprehend how extraordinary that was for those times), Jefferson was second for two things, one of which was the Louisiana purchase, Lincoln was third for preventing the Confederacy from withdrawing from the Union, FDR was a disputed fourth, many of the people surveyed wanted to rate him lower for his questionable economic policies and his attempt to change the number of justices on the Supreme Court, except that his foresight and persistence in preparing the US for war against Hitler won them over, and Reagan was fifth, primarily for ending M.A.D. and also for reinvigorating a moribund national spirit. Eisenhower was sixth for the interstate expressway system, which was very important to the economic boom that followed.

Reagan and Eisenhower over Teddy Roosevelt? Seriously?
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I hate this post, for one simple reason. In what is otherwise a very reasonable post in which you make some very well-taken points, you also called me and most of my friends, and millions of other Americans "totalitarians," and you did it in such an unassuming way that some people might totally miss the utter insanity of it.

Progressive is a fashionable term for totalitarian? That's so f-ing crazy I can't even begin to process it.
This is a rhetorical device that the right started using in the 80's on the assumption that if they repeated it enough it would catch. The guys who created it did so deliberately to create a thought-terminating cliche whenever anybody brought up liberalism. They understood it was stupid, but they also understood that if their audience knew no history they would fall for it. It's worked so well for the echo chamber that now they can't engage in meaningful political discourse outside of their cult -- they just lack the knowledge and perspective to talk to even conservatives who actually understand political theory and history.

That didn't bother the Lee Atwaters of the world -- they inoculated their base against weighing ideas, which was the whole point.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

"Listen, there's n..n...no silver b... b...bullet that will help us bring down gas prices. W...w...whatever we do, we're screwed anyway so deal with it idiots."
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

This is a rhetorical device that the right started using in the 80's on the assumption that if they repeated it enough it would catch. The guys who created it did so deliberately to create a thought-terminating cliche whenever anybody brought up liberalism. They understood it was stupid, but they also understood that if their audience knew no history they would fall for it. It's worked so well for the echo chamber that now they can't engage in meaningful political discourse outside of their cult -- they just lack the knowledge and perspective to talk to even conservatives who actually understand political theory and history.

That didn't bother the Lee Atwaters of the world -- they inoculated their base against weighing ideas, which was the whole point.
What I hear from you is that anything you don't like, is because of some vast right wing conspiracy that started years ago in some smoke-filled room. The basic point is obvious and indisputable, although the word "totalitarian" might be a bit too harsh; that "Progressivism" today has one main aim: to micromanage everyone's lives. Same thing.
 
What I hear from you is that anything you don't like, is because of some vast right wing conspiracy that started years ago in some smoke-filled room. The basic point is obvious and indisputable, although the word "totalitarian" might be a bit too harsh; that "Progressivism" today has one main aim: to micromanage everyone's lives. Same thing.

Today's parties are akin to religions, it isn't enough to have belief in your system, there also has to be a continuous drone of propaganda to explain to the members why the other guys are a conspiracy in action, lost sheep or just fn crazy. The real humor is watching each side swear that only the other guys do that because "my side knows it is the chosen one".
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

What I hear from you is that anything you don't like, is because of some vast right wing conspiracy that started years ago in some smoke-filled room. The basic point is obvious and indisputable, although the word "totalitarian" might be a bit too harsh; that "Progressivism" today has one main aim: to micromanage everyone's lives. Same thing.
Oh so the progressives/liberals are the ones who want to do things like make sodomy laws, control contraceptives, and basically everything that slime Santorum says. It's so obvious now! Being that you're the master of the obvious, that previous line was obviously sarcasm.

Actually that's not nice, I shouldn't be so insulting to slime by using it to describe Santorum.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/hrrdiFu0GHM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Bill Maher gave Obama's super PAC a million dollars. Let the liberal claim to purity die an honest death, and let's all admit that money runs politics and always will.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Bill Maher gave Obama's super PAC a million dollars. Let the liberal claim to purity die an honest death, and let's all admit that money runs politics and always will.

Do you often argue against points that haven't been made, Senor Quixote?
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Did it happen the be the Heritage Foundation or Hoover Institute?

No, something like the American Association of University History Professors, something scholarly and non-partisan.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I hate this post, for one simple reason. In what is otherwise a very reasonable post in which you make some very well-taken points, you also called me and most of my friends, and millions of other Americans "totalitarians," and you did it in such an unassuming way that some people might totally miss the utter insanity of it.

Progressive is a fashionable term for totalitarian? That's so f-ing crazy I can't even begin to process it.

Sorry, did not mean to offend, let's forget the term for a moment and focus purely on the behavior: what do you call it when people argue that the government must be in charge of certain personal decisions because that is the only way to ensure that we get the "desired result"?


Also, you react as if "totalitarian" is necessarily a bad thing, and I would dispute that. There are several prominent philosophers who make compelling arguments in support of totalitarian government. For example, the left-wing totalitarian (which I equate with "progessivism") is best exemplified by Plato, and his concept of the "philosopher king." Ordinary everyday people are so busy trying to survive that one cannot reasonably expect them also to develop all the tools and discernment needed to live a "proper life" as well; consequently, the gifted ones owe it to everyone else to lead them in an enlightened and benevolent manner. It's the best way to ensure the overall highest level of mutual welfare.

Similarly, Thomas Hobbes in Leviathan gave a powerfully compelling argument in favor of right-wing totalitarian rule that is best exemplified by monarchy when the monarch truly has his/her subjects best interests at heart. People are naturallly suspicious and selfish, and they cannot trust each other very much unless they are sure that a strong central government will instill and promote order. Only then can the benefits of social living become available.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Who made that claim???
This guy.

oz_scarecrow_1.jpg
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Oh so the progressives/liberals are the ones who want to do things like make sodomy laws, control contraceptives, and basically everything that slime Santorum says. It's so obvious now! Being that you're the master of the obvious, that previous line was obviously sarcasm.

I intended my four-quadrent analysis to be descriptive, a form of taxonomy, other people are reading additional implications where none were intended.

If you have a graph with an axis that runs left to right from radical to conservative, and an axis that runs bottom to top as liberal to totalitarian, then in the upper left we have the radical totalitarian Barack Obama (at least he comes out and says so directly! he's proud and unapologetic, and I'm fine with that.) In the upper right you would place Rick Santorum as a right-wing totalitarian (I don't know enough about him, I'll take your word for it). In the lower right, I'd place Mitt Romney, Chris Christie, Paul Ryan, as right-wing liberals or as liberal conservatives or however you want to say it, and in the lower left, I'd place Andrew Cuomo as a radical liberal or a left-wing liberal or however you want to say it.

In NY state, the politics currently are dominated by public-sector unions, which are so far to the right that they are beyond conservative, they are reactionary (NOT all public-sector unions, merely NY state public sector unions), and so in NY you need a radical to take them on if you are going to have any money left over to service the social-welfare programs that are essential to the liberal agenda.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

now they [we??] can't engage in meaningful political discourse outside of their [our??]cult -- they just lack the knowledge and perspective to talk to even conservatives who actually understand political theory and history.

Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I intended my four-quadrent analysis to be descriptive, a form of taxonomy, other people are reading additional implications where none were intended.
No need to read anything into anything anymore after this derp factory.
 
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