Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

And the sooner we get about this necessary business the sooner we have a chance of improving the worst education system among all industrialized nations. Two out of three high school kids in Milwaukee fail to graduate: a triumph of teachers unions? That statistic would be worse if there were no teachers unions? Don't kid a kidder.

And cutting teacher pay will improve our educational system?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

And cutting teacher pay will improve our educational system?

That's the clear meaning of what I posted all right. No doubt about it. You find the word "cut" or any synonym in my post and I'll donate 100 bucks to your favorite charity. Evidently you're just incapable of engaging in an honest discussion--of anything.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Doesn't change the fact that busting the unioin has nothing to do with the budget. Which was the main point that Rachel has been making all along.

I sincerely doubt that anyone has ever truly believed that this was really all about the budget in Wisconsin...

What's happening in Michigan is even worse than what happened in Madison.

Well... it is Michigan...

Teachers unions should be busted. And the sooner we get about this necessary business the sooner we have a chance of improving the worst education system among all industrialized nations. Two out of three high school kids in Milwaukee fail to graduate: a triumph of teachers unions? That statistic would be worse if there were no teachers unions? Don't kid a kidder.

Of course the stats in Milwaukee are awful. It's an inner city school district in America. Chicago, Baltimore, Atlanta, Detroit... name me one single inner city school district with noticeably better statistics.

What we should be asking if we want to use MPS as an argument for this legislation is this: why are we lumping every single school district in the state into their same boat?

Maybe you guys touched on this while I was on vacation, but is there still nothing to say about Walker's budget proposal including removal of restrictions on private school vouchers while also stripping any accountability from the private schools receiving them?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

That's the clear meaning of what I posted all right. No doubt about it. You find the word "cut" or any synonym in my post and I'll donate 100 bucks to your favorite charity. Evidently you're just incapable of engaging in an honest discussion--of anything.

To be fair, it'll be a helluva stretch when "teacher's unions should be busted" translates to anything besides major pay cuts for teachers.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Well... it is Michigan...

Of course the stats in Milwaukee are awful. It's an inner city school district in America. Chicago, Baltimore, Atlanta, Detroit... name me one single inner city school district with noticeably better statistics.

What we should be asking if we want to use MPS as an argument for this legislation is this: why are we lumping every single school district in the state into their same boat?

Maybe you guys touched on this while I was on vacation, but is there still nothing to say about Walker's budget proposal including removal of restrictions on private school vouchers while also stripping any accountability from the private schools receiving them?

Ha Ha And all of those big cities you refer to have education systems infested with (wait for it) teachers unions. And we need to lard the private schools that get microscopic amounts of public money in the form of scholarships (but don't have unionized teachers) with as many restrictions, rules and regulations that the teachers union goons in the state legislature can think up, to do everything possible to make sure they fail? These private schools can't afford to lay on paper pushers whose only job is to satisfy paperwork requirements. For years, teachers unions in Chicago did everything they could to damage Marva Collins and her Westside Prep. Why? Because she was daily exposing them as incompetent. Teachers unions oppose even the thought of any change in the status quo. And for good reason. Those changes in the status quo have the potential of ending their stay in the public trough.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

To be fair, it'll be a helluva stretch when "teacher's unions should be busted" translates to anything besides major pay cuts for teachers.

That's a union talking point and completely meritless. It may seem like a "helluva stretch" to you, but not to anyone unbrainwashed by union propaganda.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Ha Ha And all of those big cities you quote have education systems infested with (wait for it) teachers unions.

Lots of terrible education systems have teachers unions. Lots of great education systems (in Wisconsin and elsewhere) have teachers unions. The presence of unions might seem like a cancer to the hard-line loonie in us all, but the fact is that the mere presence of them isn't the issue.

And we need to lard the private schools that get microscopic amounts of public money in the form of scholarships (but don't have unionized teachers) with as many restrictions, rules and regulations that the teachers union goons in the state legislature can think up, to do everything possible to make sure they fail? These private schools can't afford to lay on paper pushers whose only job is to satisfy paperwork requirements.

Oh yes, pity the private schools who, under Walker's plan, will accept several thousands of dollars per pupil with absolutely no strings attached. And, yes, that includes the students who would go to private schools, vouchers or no vouchers. Because if there's anyone who needs to be subsidized... it's families who send their kids to private school.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Lots of terrible education systems have teachers unions. Lots of great education systems (in Wisconsin and elsewhere) have teachers unions. The presence of unions might seem like a cancer to the hard-line loonie in us all, but the fact is that the mere presence of them isn't the issue.


Oh yes, pity the private schools who, under Walker's plan, will accept several thousands of dollars per pupil with absolutely no strings attached. And, yes, that includes the students who would go to private schools, vouchers or no vouchers. Because if there's anyone who needs to be subsidized... it's families who send their kids to private school.

So education in big citieis sucks. Okay, we agree on that. Your prescription for improvement evidently involves NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER in the status quo. Just keep pouring money down those rat holes, hoping that magically things will get better? Really? I'm guessing that won't work out.

When backed up against a wall, making ridiculous arguments that have practically no merit, whip out class warfare. Next up, the race card. 'Course the kids most disadvantaged by those union run inner city school systems are minority kids. Just about the first order of business for Obama was the elimination of a scholarship program in DC. Naturally, unions run the Democrat party and even our first AA president had to bow to their wishes to take money away from black DC kids who might have a chance to escape the tender mercies of that horrible system. Nice.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

So education in big citieis sucks. Okay, we agree on that. Your prescription for improvement evidently involves NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER in the status quo. Just keep pouring money down those rat holes, hoping that magically things will get better? Really? I'm guessing that won't work out.

When backed up against a wall, making ridiculous arguments that have practically no merit, whip out class warfare. Next up, the race card. 'Course the kids most disadvantaged by those union run inner city school systems are minority kids. Just about the first order of business for Obama was the elimination of a scholarship program in DC. Naturally, unions run the Democrat party and even our first AA president had to bow to their wishes to rtake money away from black DC kids who might have a chance to escape the tender mercies of that horrible system. Nice.

I can't tell which one this reeks more of. Feel free to take your pick.

I'll lean towards the straw man, if only because of the reverse race-baiting at the end. It's actually some of your better work.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I can't tell which one this reeks more of. Feel free to take your pick.

Cute. But irrelevant. The IWW is going down, buddy. Going down, you hear me?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Everyone knows that the biggest issue with inner city schools is that the parents don't take it seriously. As a result, neither do the kids. Being a teacher in one of those districts is one of the most soul-sucking personal hells you can imagine- so I'm pretty sure that a lot of them give up, too.

There's a lot of blame to go around there, but the unions aren't exactly the biggest problem, when no one wants to be there in the first place.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Everyone knows that the biggest issue with inner city schools is that the parents don't take it seriously. As a result, neither do the kids. Being a teacher in one of those districts is one of the most soul-sucking personal hells you can imagine- so I'm pretty sure that a lot of them give up, too.

There's a lot of blame to go around there, but the unions aren't exactly the biggest problem.

So since unions aren't the "biggest" problem, we should do nothing about their embrace of incompetency and their demands for higher pay and benefits for it? We should just concede that the social pathologies of the inner city are intractable and keep on giving pay hikes and perks to lousy teachers? Let 'em print their own money. Teachers unions oppose any change in the status quo that has even the slightest chance of improving the system. And they want every teacher to have to belong. And they want the government to collect the dues. And they don't want any teacher, no matter how incompetent to be fired, ever. And they oppose almost any effort to reward excellence, because rewarding excellence exposes the lack of it. Because what teachers unions are all about is the money, and the power that flows from it. Nothing else. Certainly not "improving" education, as their leaders have repeatedly assured us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-piPkgAUo0w

"When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children." - Albert Shanker, Former President of the American Federation of Teachers

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

It doesn't even matter what happens in Wisconsin as a result of all of this. Walker is a star. He's set. Cue the book deals and speaking fees.

Bingo...Tpaw is running for President despite the fact that he basically lied about no new taxes (fees are still taxes Tim but nice try) and the state's economy went in the toilet under him. He got his press though (and bent over for the NeoCons when they told him to run for Governor and drop his bid for Senator) and look at him now!

Walker has been caught lying and deceiving everyone, but the GOP and the Tea Partiers love him so he has a major future beyond being a dbag governor in WI. No one will care when he runs for higher office.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_8747fa04-4a74-11e0-8e6b-001cc4c03286.html

How, pray tell, they managed to strip all the fiscal pieces of the bill out is beyond me.

They didn't. They stipped the collective bargaining provision from the budget bill and passed it. Thereby making them all liars for saying it was ever a budgetary measure and not about busting the unions.

Congratulations, Wisconsinites, your legislators and governor flat out lied to you for 3-4 weeks. They didn't just misremember or lie by omission, either.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Nor was it ever about breaking the supposed vice-grip that unions have on state and local elections. The very existence of the debate falsifies the premise. The GOP has never been unable to compete for governorships. Even in the northeast.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

How does it taste?

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Tastes the same as always. Like hypocrisy. The GOP's claim to fiscal discipline is the single biggest lie in American electoral politics.

They never make good on it, even when they're in power, and it's always someone else's fault.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Tastes the same as always. Like hypocrisy. The GOP's claim to fiscal discipline is the single biggest lie in American electoral politics.

They never make good on it, even when they're in power, and it's always someone else's fault.

Pretty much.

How many states are voting to saddle their police force with that Arizona style mess of an immigration law? Whether its need in AZ is debatable, but the HUGE costs that it incurs for major cities where illegals are a minor issue across the nation wipes out any quick hit cost cuts the GOP would have even contemplated.

But rather lets force a deterioration in education instead with long term implications for US worker competitiveness and tax revenue. How many issues can you get wrong?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Tastes the same as always. Like hypocrisy. The GOP's claim to fiscal discipline is the single biggest lie in American electoral politics.

They never make good on it, even when they're in power, and it's always someone else's fault.

This is true, but I take no pleasure in it. Since 1976 the GOP was never about fiscal restraint, it was about redistribution (or re-re-distribution). If anything, their policies have been a bigger disaster for American fiscal balance than the worst of the liberals. At least liberal policies, while expensive, ward off even more expensive outcomes. GOP policies merely transfer wealth upwards, both in practice and, unsurprisingly given who drives the party, by design.

One of the annoying realities of American politics is there is no credible fiscal conservative choice. Even libertarians who swallow the cut-rate authoritarianism and rah-rah militarism of the American right don't get back fiscal discipline as a reward. There is quite literally no reason to vote Republican unless it's to punish the Dems -- that's the real legacy of the Orange County Takeover of the GOP.

The Republicans were a serious party in the 50's and 60's. Now they're just a plutocrats' drag act. And we've all suffered for it, since when they're in power it's a disaster and when they're out of power they aren't doing anything to influence the incumbents to be a force for good.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

This is true, but I take no pleasure in it. Since 1976 the GOP was never about fiscal restraint, it was about redistribution (or re-re-distribution). If anything, their policies have been a bigger disaster for American fiscal balance than the worst of the liberals. At least liberal policies, while expensive, ward off even more expensive outcomes. GOP policies merely transfer wealth upwards, both in practice and, unsurprisingly given who drives the party, by design.

One of the annoying realities of American politics is there is no credible fiscal conservative choice. Even libertarians who swallow the cut-rate authoritarianism and rah-rah militarism of the American right don't get back fiscal discipline as a reward. There is quite literally no reason to vote Republican unless it's to punish the Dems -- that's the real legacy of the Orange County Takeover of the GOP.

The Republicans were a serious party in the 50's and 60's. Now they're just a plutocrats' drag act. And we've all suffered for it, since when they're in power it's a disaster and when they're out of power they aren't doing anything to influence the incumbents to be a force for good.

And despite ALL OF THAT the majority of Americans would rather vote Republican because the damm government is taking over their Medicare. It's ok if they invade our bedrooms, but heaven above don't let them take over our Medicare.