Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Since we're throwing out ideas; how about tying voting to paying income taxes? If you aren't paying anything in then you are always going to vote yourself other peoples' money.

The implications of these proposals is that the US loses many of its Democratic ideals. Some may be fine with that...but as has been said, most would not including in all probability the founding fathers.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Since we're throwing out ideas; how about tying voting to paying income taxes? If you aren't paying anything in then you are always going to vote yourself other peoples' money.

Nelson Bunker Hunt believed votes should be weighted by net worth. I suppose the 5 members of the SCOTUS who argued in Citizen United that spending money equals speech will be perfectly OK with "one dollar, one vote."

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Why not just let white males who own land vote?

Perfect.

 

[Mania]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Why not just let white males who own land vote?

That wouldn't be fair...only the government would be able to vote.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

The implications of these proposals is that the US loses many of its Democratic ideals. Some may be fine with that...but as has been said, most would not including in all probability the founding fathers.

Where ya been? For the last 30 years they have demonstrated they don't mind destroying democratic ideals as long as they can destroy Democratic candidates.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Since we're throwing out ideas; how about tying voting to paying income taxes? If you aren't paying anything in then you are always going to vote yourself other peoples' money.

I don't see tying this to paying taxes, but it's a serious issue that so many people (I've seen numbers indicating somewhere around 50 percent) don't pay a dime in taxes and actually get money back in some cases. When you have such a sizable segment of the population with no care in what tax rates there are, they are always going to support more spending and taxing, as they benefit from the spending but don't contribute at all to paying the taxes.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Hey, there's a whole other thread about Mexicans being the devil. This thread is about Obama being the devil. The Man won't even let a brother have his own thread. Racist.

Again, your fixation on our Mexican (really Hispanic is a better term, as a good number of them are not from Mexico) friends is concerning. Seems like a simple concept that everyone votes in the country where they are a citizen. But call me simplistic and unrealistic.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

I don't see tying this to paying taxes, but it's a serious issue that so many people (I've seen numbers indicating somewhere around 50 percent) don't pay a dime in taxes and actually get money back in some cases. When you have such a sizable segment of the population with no care in what tax rates there are, they are always going to support more spending and taxing, as they benefit from the spending but don't contribute at all to paying the taxes.

A progressive tax structure with no exemptions, no deductions, a 10% minimum, a 90% maximum, and a 1% increase for each dollar above each 10k bracket solves this problem nicely. Everybody pays, everybody can still get rich and even super-rich, and neither side can bribe the voters with tax cuts or sneak in tax hikes anymore.

.10 Dollar 1-10,000
.11 10,001-20,000
.12 20,001-30,000
...
.20 100,001-110,000
...
.30 200,001-210,000
...
.89 790,001-800,000
.90 800,001+

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

A progressive tax structure with no exemptions, no deductions, a 10% minimum, a 90% maximum, and a 1% increase for each dollar above each 10k bracket solves this problem nicely. Everybody pays, everybody can still get rich and even super-rich, and neither side can bribe the voters with tax cuts or sneak in tax hikes anymore.

.10 Dollar 1-10,000
.11 10,001-20,000
.12 20,001-30,000
...
.20 100,001-110,000
...
.30 200,001-210,000
...
.89 790,001-800,000
.90 800,001+

You know what does an even better job of solving this? 15% across the board.

We've tried the 70% bracket before. When they got rid of it economic expansion increased and tax revenue doubled.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Why not just let white males who own land vote?

The whle idea behind only letting land owners vote was that they were the only ones with something that could be taken away by the gov't.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

A progressive tax structure with no exemptions, no deductions, a 10% minimum, a 90% maximum, and a 1% increase for each dollar above each 10k bracket solves this problem nicely. Everybody pays, everybody can still get rich and even super-rich, and neither side can bribe the voters with tax cuts or sneak in tax hikes anymore.

.10 Dollar 1-10,000
.11 10,001-20,000
.12 20,001-30,000
...
.20 100,001-110,000
...
.30 200,001-210,000
...
.89 790,001-800,000
.90 800,001+

I like the concept in general, although your higher income tax levels, topping out at 90 percent, aren't realistic. If I make $801,000, are you really taking $720,900 in taxes (before state and other taxes take an additional bite)? Wow!

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

You know what does an even better job of solving this? 15% across the board.

We've tried the 70% bracket before. When they got rid of it economic expansion increased and tax revenue doubled.

We had high marginal rates throughout the 50's and 60's and had a booming economy. We also raised people out of poverty, had a lower Gini, and had lower middle class people earning enough to buy homes without serious debt.

Since they cut out of highest marginal rates, we've had wage stagnation and a growing income gap.

I know which country I want to live in.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

I like the concept in general, although your higher income tax levels, topping out at 90 percent, aren't realistic. If I make $801,000, are you really taking $720,900 in taxes (before state and other taxes take an additional bite)? Wow!

Sure*, because as you get higher, there's significantly less effort to go even higher, so the "bite" in terms of exerting yourself is the same. Money begets money, and if we have to choose I'd rather tax money than sweat. I do take the lesson about everybody having skin in the game, though, hence drive out the "free rider" problem by zeroing out all the exemptions and deductions.

We actually did have 90% rates in our history, BTW.

The more you help people on the bottom from the start, the less you have to help them throughout life -- a billion dollars to AFDC and Head Start saves 100 billion dollars to prisons and drug rehab. A billion dollars to schools saves 100 billion dollars in welfare payments. A billion dollars to affordable medicine and child care would save 100 billion dollars in welfare fraud and emergency room costs.

We tried trickle down. It's a catastrophic failure, and not just morally, but pragmatically. It's worse than a crime, it's a blunder. A nation of middle class shopkeepers is just a better place to live.

BTW, I would like to see states collect revenues via consumption rather than income taxes. I would be for eliminating state and local income taxes COMPLETELY and replacing them with sales, excise and property taxes. It would also be nice if they were uniform, since that would stop the Race to the Bottom where everybody winds up as a third world Mississippi out of terror of corporate flight.


* I didn't do the math (it would be an easy algorithm), but note of course the higher rates are marginal -- they only apply to the higher dollar. So, Bob Gray, Millionaire, still only pays 10% on his first 10,000 smackeroos.

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

I think Kepler is saying that your first 10,000 is taxed at 10%, then the next 10,000 is taxed at 11% and so on. So if you make 801,000, only 1,000 of it is taxed at 90%. Not sure why he agreed with you that someone making 801000 dollars would pay 720K in taxes, maybe he doesn't understand his own policy.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

We had high marginal rates throughout the 50's and 60's and had a booming economy. We also raised people out of poverty, had a lower Gini, and had lower middle class people earning enough to buy homes without serious debt.

Since they cut out of highest marginal rates, we've had wage stagnation and a growing income gap.

I know which country I want to live in.

And then we kept those rates and stiffled the economy and didn't get it going again until we cut the rates. Do think that people wouldn't have bought homes or increased their standard of living with lower tax rates? Yes, you can have growth with high marginal rates. However, history shows us that its far more likely to happen with a lower burden placed on the economy.

The income gap is one of the biggest red herrings out there. If you make $10K/yr and someone else makes $100K/yr and you both double your salary you are both equally better off, but the income gap has increased. The income gap always increases in times of economic expansion. The only time is decreases is during a recession.

If you're taxing money then you're taxing sweat as long as you have an income tax.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

The more you help people on the bottom from the start, the less you have to help them throughout life -- a billion dollars to AFDC and Head Start saves 100 billion dollars to prisons and drug rehab. A billion dollars to schools saves 100 billion dollars in welfare payments. A billion dollars to affordable medicine and child care would save 100 billion dollars in welfare fraud and emergency room costs.

Link??

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

And then we kept those rates and stiffled the economy and didn't get it going again until we cut the rates. Do think that people wouldn't have bought homes or increased their standard of living with lower tax rates? Yes, you can have growth with high marginal rates. However, history shows us that its far more likely to happen with a lower burden placed on the economy.

The income gap is one of the biggest red herrings out there. If you make $10K/yr and someone else makes $100K/yr and you both double your salary you are both equally better off, but the income gap has increased*. The income gap always increases in times of economic expansion. The only time is decreases is during a recession.

If you're taxing money then you're taxing sweat as long as you have an income tax.

* I'm talking ratio, not dollar. If you both double your salary, the gap stays the same. It's not a red herring.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

I think Kepler is saying that your first 10,000 is taxed at 10%, then the next 10,000 is taxed at 11% and so on. So if you make 801,000, only 1,000 of it is taxed at 90%. Not sure why he agreed with you that someone making 801000 dollars would pay 720K in taxes, maybe he doesn't understand his own policy.

See note below. I thought I had made it clear using the word "marginal," but then went back and clarified.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Link??

Here.

Here.

Here.

Each has citations to dozens of studies.

 

[Twitch Boy]

Re: Obama XVII: Do You Take Your Tea Party with One Sugar or Two?

Obama wants federal pay freeze

RFAlph or another fed in the know...I'm a GS-9 "intern" in line to be put in an official position at GS-11 at the end of May 2011. Would this stop me from going to GS-11?