Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

[geezer]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Ok -this is so completely exhausting.

A - what are you saying by "supporting" a higher tax rate on high earners? gouging successful people because you or I aren't as "successful" financially? that's fair? how so?

I'm saying that the country is suffering a severe debt crisis, and until spending is cut drastically the only people who are able to help with the federal deficit are in the top bracket. I'd let the cuts on the 39% group lapse. Of course it's not fair. And it's not out of a need to "punish" them. But how many hookers will it cost Tiger Woods if he has to kick in $5M more? Surely he can afford to spend a few nights alone more than my kids can go without bread.

B -
Success gives you money and power under our FORMER system... Under Barack Guevara it gives you taxes, more taxes, a target on your forehead, and the stigma that you are (gasp) selfish or greedy (meaning, IMO, you look out for yourself, rather than have gov't do it).


Understand capitalism and human behavior. so? that's bad? these people (the people you are calling greedy or allude to as such) hire us, pay us, give us 401k's etc. only (IMO) people who cannot think for themselves have this sophmoric "us against big business", "union vs the bosses or board", "gov't vs business/private sector" "we're constantly getting screwed by everyone BUT gov't" attitude/mentality. If you don't like your job, your boss, or your pay then leave. simple. get a new job. You have a brain and you can work it so go forth and be successful.

let me put it to you this way...Is Sidney Crosby greedy in wanting to score as many goals as possible? It helps him individually AND helps his team right? You DO understand that success breeds success? Should Crosby dish more because a 4th liner deserves some approbation and a boost in pay? or should he do what he's best at and as a consequence (not by his design necessarily) helps the team the most?

Right now Obama is killing the private sector by design. He's the American version of Che Guevara and in a private party I'm sure he'd acknowledge that that's a comparison he's beyond happy with.

Socialist. Obama. Yeah and I'm saying it and it's true. Look up his interview on WBEZ in Chicago from 2001 or 02 if you're too... let's say optimistic to believe the collapse of our economy is NOT something that is 90% on his shoulders and something he's planned since his first reading of Marx...ok, that's harsh, he didn't WANT the economy to fail exactly, he just wanted "fairness" and marxism, but he didn't/doesn't realize that marxism/socialism/collectivism ALWAYS Fails, and thus our entire economy will fail with the implementation of the doctrine.

This will drive Handyman and others nuts but I don't care. 1/2 my family is from Cuba. lived it. done with it.

now we've got it here and it's getting worse.

how does over-taxation (aka taking $ out of the private sector, and working people's hands) help the economy?

it is the very reason companies large and small are "hoarding" cash as some are saying here.

we've got an anti-growth, redistributionist president with an enormous chip on his shoulder who absolutely won't stop because (and I'll give him credit for being true to his beliefs I guess) he's absolutely committed to the cause of socialism and redistribution. Teaching us our lesson that we were wrong to look out for ourselves.

I can't argue with most of this, except that I don't think paying 4% more is going to affect Sid's motivation to succeed. He'll just have to try a little harder, find a little more success, to pay the tax man. I wouldn't shed any tears for his lost margin.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

So...is he a Communist or a Socialist Patman...according to your little "theory" he is both which last I checked is not really possible.

Hell using your criteria I am both a Reagan Republican and a Bleeding Heart Liberal. See what happens when you cast with a wide net.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Of course it's not fair. And it's not out of a need to "punish" them. But how many hookers will it cost Tiger Woods if he has to kick in $5M more? Surely he can afford to spend a few nights alone more than my kids can go without bread.

In general I agree...but take a slightly different bent.

Its not as though the rich are being skewered here. In fact, the rich more than just keeping pace...they're accellerating income disparity. In the late 70s, 1% of the US pop held 9% of its wealth. That has expanded to 1% having about 24% of total wealth in the US. Now I'm OK with that if this top 1% is driving much more value to the economy than in years past...but they aren't. If anything, the average worker is much more productive...due to technology.

And remember, wealth creates wealth. So my money can earn lots more money while I do nothing...and is taxed at an even lower rate than someone flipping burgers 10 hours a day. And the trend is accellerating as the working and middle classes are the ones that are really taking it on the chin during the recession.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Money/Robe...ession-middle-and-working-classes-lose-ground

Obama is a socialist

So you can speak of his socialist friends, upbringing, etc...but the net message is that if he does nothing to institute socialism what difference does it make? Except in the heads of a few extreme conservatives.

Ok -this is so completely exhausting.

A - so my doctor friend should pay my healthcare because he makes more than me? because he's (gasp) worked MORE than me in school, put in longer hours at work??? etc.? what are you saying by "supporting" a higher tax rate on high earners? gouging successful people because you or I aren't as "successful" financially? that's fair? how so?

B -
Success gives you money and power under our FORMER system... Under Barack Guevara it gives you taxes, more taxes, a target on your forehead, and the stigma that you are (gasp) selfish or greedy (meaning, IMO, you look out for yourself, rather than have gov't do it).

Sorry to say this but your whole communist conspiracy theory stuff is why 70% of Americans write off 30% of extremists.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

But the way to fix the wealth gap isn't to take more from the 1%, launder it through the most ineffective process possible and then hand it out to people in increasing amounts, forever.

Where does that stop?

By that logic, the way for me to better prepare my kids for their future is to just give them more money each month for them to spend.

The problem is a hard one to solve, while it easy to say "let's just take more money from those people", that isn't fixing anything...and it isn't sustainable.

We don't have to blame the poor, but handing out more money isn't really helping them in the long run.

I like how some of you make fun of the idea of people working their way out of poverty or the lower class, implying that it is myth or worse. When we give up even trying to have people earn money to solve their economic woes, then we've made a huge mistake.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I love how some of you act like the odds arent ridiculously stacked against the poor fighting their way out of poverty and making it. Have you ever been poor...and I dont mean poor because you were in college I mean REALLY poor, living in low income housing, using food stamps, literally counting down to your last dime trying to survive. I have, trust me for ever 1 person that fights their way out there is 15 that dont or can't.

I am not saying hand the poor money or services, that wont change anything but neither will the opposite scenario.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I think Warren will do alright. saw her on cspan (oversight committe) and pbs (charlie rose) and she'll do the right thing for the people and the country.

Obviously you've never read her articles. She, like so many of her ilk, basically posits that lower income people shouldn't be granted any credit because they don't have the abilities (read: mental capacity) to handle it. Credit should be granted only to those who really don't need it, like the educated classes, and only at terms and rates she deems "fair and reasonable". She has very little understanding of the actual lending process, and it will show when lenders only lend to a smaller, more select population, which should do wonders for the overall economy.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Obviously you've never read her articles. She, like so many of her ilk, basically posits that lower income people shouldn't be granted any credit because they don't have the abilities (read: mental capacity) to handle it. Credit should be granted only to those who really don't need it, like the educated classes, and only at terms and rates she deems "fair and reasonable". She has very little understanding of the actual lending process, and it will show when lenders only lend to a smaller, more select population, which should do wonders for the overall economy.

Wow...that is so wrong on about 12 levels NOT INCLUDING the economic reasoning!

If my vote counted I would get rid of this whole administration. It doesn't sadly.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

But the way to fix the wealth gap isn't to take more from the 1%, launder it through the most ineffective process possible and then hand it out to people in increasing amounts, forever.

What is the best way to fix the gap? Many of those are being tried.

In many cases, it seems like its not about the tax rate which is what everyone focuses on when they feel the upper 20% are getting robbed. The real situation is that frequently these folks don't pay taxes because they have writeoffs and the best advice that money can buy to avoid paying taxes. Remember nearly half of Americans didn't pay taxes last year. Believe me if you were flipping burgers, you paid taxes...and the rest? Definitely not all unemployed.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

In general I agree...but take a slightly different bent.

Its not as though the rich are being skewered here. In fact, the rich more than just keeping pace...they're accellerating income disparity. In the late 70s, 1% of the US pop held 9% of its wealth. That has expanded to 1% having about 24% of total wealth in the US. Now I'm OK with that if this top 1% is driving much more value to the economy than in years past...but they aren't. If anything, the average worker is much more productive...due to technology.

And remember, wealth creates wealth. So my money can earn lots more money while I do nothing...and is taxed at an even lower rate than someone flipping burgers 10 hours a day. And the trend is accellerating as the working and middle classes are the ones that are really taking it on the chin during the recession.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Money/Robe...ession-middle-and-working-classes-lose-ground



So you can speak of his socialist friends, upbringing, etc...but the net message is that if he does nothing to institute socialism what difference does it make? Except in the heads of a few extreme conservatives.



Sorry to say this but your whole communist conspiracy theory stuff is why 70% of Americans write off 30% of extremists.

5mn - theory implies that there is no empirical evidence. we have evidence and it's robust on Obama and his socialist beliefs.

1. it came from his words directly on WBEZ (NPR) chicago interview - just go back and listen - or find it on youtube

2. I didn't mention communism though I DID mention (and feel it's apt) a comparison to Che Guevara

there are many reasons for this (the comparison to Guevara and well calling Obama what he is, a socialist/marxist)

"we are the ones we've been waiting for", the destruction of the private sector, the government take-over of industries and the perpetual threats against industrialists and...individuals who think for themselves.

I won't get into arguments about socialism and communism having different webster's definitions. so what? in the end they share ideological foundations, they both fail, and they both hail government over individual freedom.

like I said (and this is so apropos to handyman's "have you ever been poor bs") 1/2 my family came here from a ****hole that Obama would call a great experiment, he IS of course a fan of Castro. They didn't just have 0 when they got here (just the clothes they were wearing, that's it, not money, nothing) they also didn't know the language.

someone must explain to me how 1,000,000 + cubans have gotten to this country and how so many of them have become so successful.

must be that they took government hand-outs and didn't believe in themselves.

wrong. go to new jersey or miami. it turns out cubans are amongst the biggest capitalists in the country, and it works for them and would still for us if we had a government that would get the eff out of the way

 

[busterman62]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

What is the best way to fix the gap? Many of those are being tried.

In many cases, it seems like its not about the tax rate which is what everyone focuses on when they feel the upper 20% are getting robbed. The real situation is that frequently these folks don't pay taxes because they have writeoffs and the best advice that money can buy to avoid paying taxes. Remember nearly half of Americans didn't pay taxes last year. Believe me if you were flipping burgers, you paid taxes...and the rest? Definitely not all unemployed.

Look out for the bus again. Actual Statistics disagree

 

[Slap Shot]

Look out for the bus again. Actual Statistics disagree

Fortunately, the Congressional Budget Office recently released updated data on effective average federal tax rates — that is, the percentage of their entire incomes that Americans hand over to the federal government in the form of personal income, social insurance, corporate income and excise taxes.

It would be interesting to break it down even further rather than lumping all types of income into one.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

If my vote counted I would get rid of this whole administration. It doesn't sadly.

Why not?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Actual Statistics disagree

Uh..dont think so.

The point I made was that everyone was overdoing it by arguing that the top quintile was getting taxed to death. The argument they make is that the top tax rate of 35% for the highest earners vs. say 15% for those who earn under $70k is such a huge difference. But frankly the article actually supports my point.

The top quintile earns an average of $250k. That would land that group squarely between the 33% and 35% tax bracket. Yet as the article says they only pay about 25% of their income in taxes. That's actually the tax bracket for someone earning $30-80k. In other words, they don't pay any taxes on about 30% of their income...and that doesn't include any other shady deals that a well paid tax consultant could come up with.

So sorry to disappoint...but the wealthiest quintile is not the sacrificial lamb everyones making them out to be.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

So sorry to disappoint...but the wealthiest quintile is not the sacrificial lamb everyones making them out to be.

I'm disappointed. it seems like there is a polarity by design. somehow if you repeat anything long enough and loud enough you'll win or something.

Like defending the 15% tax rate for the hedge fund traders/investors like Buffet making billions, because it's not considered wages, even though it's compensation for his services.

I've never read Warran's articles, but from her interview on cspan/pbs, it seems like some of you are bending her words upside down. By definition if you tighten predatory lending and loose lending standards, some people will not be able to get credit:it also means banks will not be able to take advantage of these people.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

And why should everyone be allowed credit?

Isn't that one of the beefs of the right wing, that people were getting loans they had no right to be getting,. based on their financial circumstance?

Wasn't that the reason the housing markets tanked, and the entire economy was destroyed? Dammed CRA.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Uh..dont think so.

The point I made was that everyone was overdoing it by arguing that the top quintile was getting taxed to death. The argument they make is that the top tax rate of 35% for the highest earners vs. say 15% for those who earn under $70k is such a huge difference. But frankly the article actually supports my point.

The top quintile earns an average of $250k. That would land that group squarely between the 33% and 35% tax bracket. Yet as the article says they only pay about 25% of their income in taxes. That's actually the tax bracket for someone earning $30-80k. In other words, they don't pay any taxes on about 30% of their income...and that doesn't include any other shady deals that a well paid tax consultant could come up with.

So sorry to disappoint...but the wealthiest quintile is not the sacrificial lamb everyones making them out to be.

That isn't the point I'm making. I can't speak for everyone else but I am less worried that the rich won't be able to feed their family than the mentality that they are to blame for the country's problems and that taxing them further will solve any of the country's problems.

Will it cover up some problems, sure, money usually does. Will it make some people feel better, sure, especially when they are using other peoples wages to do so.

Are we going to tax our way out of the current situation? We can print money and deficit spend...shortage of money isn't our problem...if another few billion would suddenly make everything ok wouldn't the president just order the presses to run overtime and solve our problems? Then everybody would be successful, tax coffers would overflow and we'd pay down the deficit in no time.

I'm not aware of any situation in which the lesson is 'throwing money at the problem works'. Nor am I aware of any situation in which blaming somebody else is the solution.

The solution will be so much more complicated than that...if you had a brother in law who was unemployed and going to starve your sister and kids from his inability to earn money would you give him some? Probably. Would you do that forever? If you had to. But how would you solve the problem...and divorce leaves you still paying for the sister and kids...what would you do? Would you solve his problem by giving him more money each month? Would you work harder to make more money so you could maintain your standard of living and improve theirs?

If something won't work for one family/situation, why would it work for millions of families with a middle man taking a growing cut each year?

Think it through, what would you do? Would it have a better chance of working than just shoveling money into the furnace? Is it possible that if it worked for one family, it could work for millions...even if it was harder to do it for millions of families?

 

[busterman62]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Uh..dont think so.

The point I made was that everyone was overdoing it by arguing that the top quintile was getting taxed to death. The argument they make is that the top tax rate of 35% for the highest earners vs. say 15% for those who earn under $70k is such a huge difference. But frankly the article actually supports my point.

The top quintile earns an average of $250k. That would land that group squarely between the 33% and 35% tax bracket. Yet as the article says they only pay about 25% of their income in taxes. That's actually the tax bracket for someone earning $30-80k. In other words, they don't pay any taxes on about 30% of their income...and that doesn't include any other shady deals that a well paid tax consultant could come up with.

So sorry to disappoint...but the wealthiest quintile is not the sacrificial lamb everyones making them out to be.

Your initial point seemed to be that "frequently" the top earners are able to avoid taxation. While in some instances that may be true, the vast majority of taxes (~55%) are paid by the top 10% of earners. data The top quintile pays almost 69% of the total taxes. It's not punishing success, it's making "sure that everybody who is behind you – that they’ve got a chance at success too." In other words, "when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody."

As to your above rebuttal (sic), the article doesn't support that the wealthy avoid taxation. Quite the opposite. It shows that a greater portion of their income is taxed. Effective tax rates are not the same as the progressive tax code rates even though both are higher for higher incomes.

Be on the lookout for the bus

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Are we going to tax our way out of the current situation? We can print money and deficit spend...shortage of money isn't our problem...if another few billion would suddenly make everything ok wouldn't the president just order the presses to run overtime and solve our problems? Then everybody would be successful, tax coffers would overflow and we'd pay down the deficit in no time.

I'm not aware of any situation in which the lesson is 'throwing money at the problem works'. Nor am I aware of any situation in which blaming somebody else is the solution.

we'll have to. raise taxes and cut spending to balance the budget. Printing money would lead to hyper inflation. And i have to laugh about the looming $50trillion unfunded liability (ss/medicare etc) like anyone will let us borrow that or we could afford the interest payment of $2trillon+.

It worked for the banks. they got $2trillion credit line plus the $700billion tarp plus all the government guarantees. And it worked for wallstreet blame the consumers for borrowing too much and CRA forcing banks to lend to them.

I don't see congress balancing the budget. maybe we can ALL agree about finally passing a balanced budget amendent.

In March 1995, a Balanced Budget Amendment passed the House of Representatives and came within one vote of passing the Senate.

And maybe we use the failed Reagan idea of raising taxes by $1 and reducing spending by $2. or 1 to 1 ratio and include everything: military/ss/medicare/welfare etc...

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

we'll have to. raise taxes and cut spending to balance the budget. Printing money would lead to hyper inflation. And i have to laugh about the looming $50trillion unfunded liability (ss/medicare etc) like anyone will let us borrow that or we could afford the interest payment of $2trillon+.

It worked for the banks. they got $2trillion credit line plus the $700billion tarp plus all the government guarantees. And it worked for wallstreet blame the consumers for borrowing too much and CRA forcing banks to lend to them.

I don't see congress balancing the budget. maybe we can ALL agree about finally passing a balanced budget amendent.



And maybe we use the failed Reagan idea of raising taxes by $1 and reducing spending by $2. or 1 to 1 ratio and include everything: military/ss/medicare/welfare etc...

I only used the printing money example to demonstrate that if it was only a matter of having enough money then we'd solve it that way...to your point, it is far more complicated than that so just taxing the rich a little more isn't really going to solve anything.

As for a balanced budget, balanced by whom in what manner would be my question...if Congress balances the budgets it will all be done on estimates and forecasts that a 9 year old could poke holes in. It will be balanced in the future based on forecasts that they pressured into happening.

Further, it will be balanced for one day and then out of balance the next, amendment or not...they'll change the rules, vote in exceptions, variances and exclusions and we'll be off to the races again.

The number of people requiring services and the rising costs of those will outstrip the ability for the rich to cover it...you think they look for loopholes now, start taxing income at 50% and you'll see their incomes drop quickly.

The problem we face isn't getting the rich to pay more, it is reducing the need for services through better education, better career training and better incentive for companies to hire people.

I'm crazy enough to think that 99% of the people want to work, would benefit from working (besides the money) and their kids would benefit from seing parents working.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Your initial point seemed to be that "frequently" the top earners are able to avoid taxation.

I made several points...the primary one was that people make the affluent out to be victims based on the magnitude of the difference in tax rates. I made no point about the fact that the affluent are paying no taxes at all or made any inference as to it as a percentage of total tax revenue...or some other drift in your post.

I did make what you claim is the point above.

The top quintile should be paying about 34% in taxes on their income and they pay pretty much 25%. The difference accounts for no taxes on approximately 30% of their income.

So if they're getting 30% additional income on average without paying taxes on it...but not 'avoiding' paying taxes...just how are they getting that income?

You brought this up...so bring it home.