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Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

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Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

geezer said:
Wrong. You're falling into Scooby's trap of thinking that because the check says "US Treasury" on it, that they're the ones providing the health care. The bureaucrats are not doctors in the way that Microsoft engineers are engineers, and the resources weren't created by them either. They're middlemen.
Misleading semantics are to suggest that the government is adding some value to the process.
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So it's a middleman program. It's still a federal gov't program, and saying "keep the feds out of medicare" is about as idiotic statement as one can make.

And the value added to the process is giving retired workers access to healthcare they couldn't get on the open market.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

geezer said:
The government cannot contribute anything to society
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You don't believe in society, remember? We're all just individuals out for ourselves, with no mutual responsibilities, self-defined and self-fulfilling like Leibniz' monads.

We now return to a discussion of how the police, the military, and free public education don't add any value for people.
 
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Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Foxton said:
Other than them being the ones running it.

The way you're trying to make it out to be is that businesses are really run by the customers since they're the ones funding the business by spending their money there.
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Depends on the business. Medicare is a kind of business in that it's nothing more than a big, bloated insurance agency. They don't do the healthcare themselves, they just take people's money to pay for other people to do it. But by invoking the power of law, they're not competing fairly with normal insurance companies.

I happen to think that Medicare/Medicaid are essentially good and necessary programs. Same with (a sensibly reformed) SS. I just think it's important for people to think about how they're funded (hint: it's not magic. Take a close look at your pay stub).
And yes, customers are essential to running a business. Who knew?
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Kepler said:
You don't believe in society, remember? We're all just individuals out for ourselves, with no mutual responsibilities, self-defined and self-fulfilling like Leibniz' monads.
Click to expand...
An interesting link, which still has absolutely nothing to do with a position I've taken. What's up with that? Don't believe in society? I'm Mr. Society, man!

Kepler said:
free public education
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I see my work here is wasted.
 
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Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

unofan said:
So it's a middleman program. It's still a federal gov't program, and saying "keep the feds out of medicare" is about as idiotic statement as one can make.

And the value added to the process is giving retired workers access to healthcare they couldn't get on the open market.
Click to expand...

Much better, you're making sense. Now to the point, "keep the feds out of Medicare" might actually make sense if this person is worried about new regulations screwing it up. ("don't mess with a good thing")
Just like you might want a referee to "stay out" of a hockey game.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

geezer said:
Now to the point, "keep the feds out of Medicare" might actually make sense if this person is worried about new regulations screwing it up. ("don't mess with a good thing")
Just like you might want a referee to "stay out" of a hockey game.
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The rhetoric makes sense, I'll admit, but I sincerely doubt that's where most of these people are coming from.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

geezer said:
Much better, you're making sense. Now to the point, "keep the feds out of Medicare" might actually make sense if this person is worried about new regulations screwing it up. ("don't mess with a good thing")
Just like you might want a referee to "stay out" of a hockey game.
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I've seen the people making such statements.

Something tells me they aren't the brightest bulbs in the lot, let alone bright enough to make any sort of analogy like that.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

unofan said:
I've seen the people making such statements.

Something tells me they aren't the brightest bulbs in the lot, let alone bright enough to make any sort of analogy like that.
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Not bright enough to verbalize it with a tee vee camera in their face, probably. But between the outliers of normal sensibility (which certainly exist), I'd think such a statement might reflect a basic frustration with each new government action tending to make things worse. Which I think is the impetus of tea partying.
i.e. The people that rely on Medicare already had it pretty good before Health Care Reform passed, and likely feared change to the program, hence the cited inexplicable demand for the gov't to "stay out of it".
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

geezer said:
Not bright enough to verbalize it with a tee vee camera in their face,".
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They ain't smart enough to come in out of the rain, what's the matter with you.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

geezer said:
a basic frustration with each new government action tending to make things worse.
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The problem with this perception is that it's an article of faith, not an empirical observation. Problem solving is usually tacking and always compromise, so anybody on the sidelines with an axe to grind can always rip every step of any solution as "going in the wrong direction." Say a surgical procedure works 75% of the time, does nothing 24%, and makes things worse 1%. It's easy to portray it as "those doctors just make things worse." Just be selective with your sample, and if anybody has the temerity to challenge you, bury them under an avalanche of Righteous Outrage. "What, you think statistics make up for little Erica's lost pinkie? You heartless bastard."

I'll bet you have no problem seeing how this works with folks who want to portray the private sector as purely evil or inept ("BP has a spill and then lies about it? Well, what do you expect?"), so it's odd you don't see the same mechanism working when it comes to painting government with the same broad brush. Ayn Rand was just as much an idiot as Michael Moore.
 
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Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Kepler said:
it's odd you don't see the same mechanism working when it comes to painting government with the same broad brush.
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I'm not speaking for myself, but providing a possible interpretation of the "stupid" statement by some tea partier. For myself, I see a critical role for the federal government in coordinating the defense of life and liberty, and have even come out in support of Medicaid/Medicare. It's essential in an age when people have lost, to a large degree, the community and familial ties that would have otherwise provided for basic needs. So, no broad brush.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

geezer said:
I'm not speaking for myself, but providing a possible interpretation of the "stupid" statement by some tea partier. For myself, I see a critical role for the federal government in coordinating the defense of life and liberty, and have even come out in support of Medicaid/Medicare. It's essential in an age when people have lost, to a large degree, the community and familial ties that would have otherwise provided for basic needs. So, no broad brush.
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I agree. I consider myself to be on the somewhat conservative side of the fiscal spectrum. But even I see the need for social security and medi(care/caid) to an extent.

Edit: But then again, I really dislike the tea party movement...
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

geezer said:
I'm not speaking for myself, but providing a possible interpretation of the "stupid" statement by some tea partier. For myself, I see a critical role for the federal government in coordinating the defense of life and liberty, and have even come out in support of Medicaid/Medicare. It's essential in an age when people have lost, to a large degree, the community and familial ties that would have otherwise provided for basic needs. So, no broad brush.
Click to expand...

dxmnkd316 said:
I agree. I consider myself to be on the somewhat conservative side of the fiscal spectrum. But even I see the need for social security and medi(care/caid) to an extent.
Click to expand...

Sure, ruin everything by being reasonable. :mad: ;)
 
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