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Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

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Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

WeWantMore said:
I get the issue with the CB, don't agree, but whatever. However, why the problem with unions needing to revote their membership each year?

It's also crazy to say CB has nothing to do with the budget. A good example of this was illustrated in the WSJ this morning. In Wisconsin, the Wisconsin state pension plan provides for a 6.8% employer contribution and a 6.2% employee contribution. Seems okay I suppose. But through collective bargaining , the Milwaukee teachers union got an agreement requiring the district to pick up the employee contribution as well, so now taxpayers are footing the entire 13%. You're saying that wasn't a direct impact on the budget, directly resulting from collective bargaining?
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It resulted from the collective bargaining process, but it wasn't preordained simply because they could collectively bargain. Collective bargaining didn't somehow negate the ability of the city of Milwaukee to say no.

As far as the annual vote goes, would you prefer we elect all politicians annually? Or would you consider it somewhat of an unnecessary expense? Think things might be more likely to swing wildly if you have to vote on a given issue repeatedly within a quicker turn around time?
Probably most pointedly, what the hell do union elections have to do with the budget?
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

unofan said:
Except that's a mischaracterization.

GOP wants higher premiums for insurance, higher pension contributions, and a contractual limit on annual pay raises. They're doing so because of budgetary issues. That's 80% of the battle here and I agree with the GOP as far as that 80% goes.

They also want to eliminate their ability to collectively bargain on anything meaningful and require unions to re-vote their membership every year. Neither of those provisions serve any budgetary purpose and are meant solely to bust the unions.

Personally, I am not a union man and would not voluntarily become one. Nonetheless, I support the right of workers to form a union. My support for the Wisconsin protesters is limited to the sole point that Walker a) is trying to eliminate their ability to collectively bargain at all and b)that Walker refuses to negotiate like an actual adult.

Yet because I only support Walker on the sensible part of his plan (the fiscal part) and not the union busting part (the tea party lunacy), that means I'm taking the liberal side? The only reason it looks that way is because everything sensible is already agreed to by all sides, and the only thing left for "debate" is the far-right derp that is the unnecessary busting of the union.

Put another way, and as an analogy, I support Fred Phelp's right to free speech. Does that somehow mean I support Fred Phelps? Likewise, just because I support the unions' right to exist, does not mean I support the unions themselves on the substantive issues.

If the GOP wants me back as a registered member, they need to stop with the bullshiat overreaching. Until then, I guess I'm a registered independent for the long haul.
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I only go by what you post. I actually have mixed feelings on the collective bargaining. But, what sympathy I would have for the unions is lost because people are forced to join, contribute to their political activities, etc. If membership wasn't forced, I'd be in a relatively similar spot to what you say. Making Wisconsin a right to work state might be a good compromise result. Let those who want union membership be members, those who don't want to be a member aren't forced. Seems reasonable to me.

Maybe annual elections is a little much, but then again, there's lots of other stuff we re-up every year. Or maybe every other year would be a compromise. How often do unions re-up now? My sense is not very often if at all in some cases.
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

unofan said:
It resulted from the collective bargaining process, but it wasn't preordained simply because they could collectively bargain. Collective bargaining didn't somehow negate the ability of the city of Milwaukee to say no.

As far as the annual vote goes, would you prefer we elect all politicians annually? Or would you consider it somewhat of an unnecessary expense? Think things might be more likely to swing wildly if you have to vote on a given issue repeatedly within a quicker turn around time?
Probably most pointedly, what the hell do union elections have to do with the budget?
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Right, but if Milwaukee and other local and municipal entities around the state have shown a persistent inability to be able to say no, isn't it time for "the adults" to be in charge? If you can't manage your budget properly, the state gets to step in and do it for you. Tough luck Milwaukee. Split the hairs if you like, but it's a budget situation directly related to collective bargaining.

On the second point, I think if you're making the decision to give up a portion of your wages as union dues, you should totally have the right to decide on a yearly basis whether you'd like to continue to do so. Just as one makes a considerable amount of other decisions on what to do with their wages on a yearly basis (or even less).

I will cede the point that union elections don't have anything to do with the budget- except as a way of bringing in a way to get employees some more of their own money- but I concede that's rather tenuous.
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Bob Gray said:
I only go by what you post. I actually have mixed feelings on the collective bargaining. But, what sympathy I would have for the unions is lost because people are forced to join, contribute to their political activities, etc. If membership wasn't forced, I'd be in a relatively similar spot to what you say. Making Wisconsin a right to work state might be a good compromise result. Let those who want union membership be members, those who don't want to be a member aren't forced. Seems reasonable to me.

Maybe annual elections is a little much, but then again, there's lots of other stuff we re-up every year. Or maybe every other year would be a compromise. How often do unions re-up now? My sense is not very often if at all in some cases.
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Wouldn't it be amazing then that a union was formed, say in Wisconsin, just this week?? I mean they're so evil and all AND no one would ever vote to join one. Not now.

Oops.

University of Wisconsin-Lacrosse faculty says yes to union
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/loc...cle_456cd18c-40a0-11e0-89f3-001cc4c03286.html

The faculty voted 249-37 to organize as part of the American Federation of Teachers-Wisconsin. The 286 ballots cast represented an 87 percent turnout. UW-L faculty members said they weren't daunted by the threat of losing bargaining powers.

"I think it's galvanized the faculty to maybe push back a little bit," said Darlene Lake, an associate professor of modern languages.

"I think we're much better off with a union than without it, particularly if the bill passes," history professor Deborah Buffton said. Michael Abler, an associate professor of biology and an AFT-Wisconsin representative who has worked for years to gain bargaining rights, said the state battle "helped crystallize" the issue on campus.
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Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

unofan said:
Personally, I am not a union man and would not voluntarily become one. Nonetheless, I support the right of workers to form a union. My support for the Wisconsin protesters is limited to the sole point that Walker a) is trying to eliminate their ability to collectively bargain at all and b)that Walker refuses to negotiate like an actual adult.
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This part if your comment really stuck out. So you're saying that Walker is not acting like an adult? What do you call thwarting the democratic process by running and hiding? WI voted these people in, so why not let them actually vote? What's so crazy about that? If it doesn't work, they will all be voted out and the new group can undo any changes that were made.


unofan said:
As far as the annual vote goes, would you prefer we elect all politicians annually? Or would you consider it somewhat of an unnecessary expense? Think things might be more likely to swing wildly if you have to vote on a given issue repeatedly within a quicker turn around time?
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I think you may be on to something. That would prevent us from getting stuck with some moron for too long because they didn't represent themselves properly, changes their mind on an issue, and also gives voters a chance to correct any mistakes. the only bad part would be the non-stop campaigning. Limit that part to only a few weeks and I'm on board.
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

ScoobyDoo said:
Wouldn't it be amazing then that a union was formed, say in Wisconsin, just this week?? I mean they're so evil and all AND no one would ever vote to join one. Not now.

Oops.

University of Wisconsin-Lacrosse faculty says yes to union
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/loc...cle_456cd18c-40a0-11e0-89f3-001cc4c03286.html
Click to expand...
A union was formed. I'm sure over time they form and at times dissolve. Is your point that you think university professors represent the general American public? If you want me to concede that unions do indeed form, consider yourself victorious. :p
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Bob Gray said:
A union was formed. I'm sure over time they form and at times dissolve. Is your point that you think university professors represent the general American public? If you want me to concede that unions do indeed form, consider yourself victorious. :p
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So, you think the 249 out of 286 professors that voted for the measure are all a bunch of leftist loons then. I see.
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

ScoobyDoo said:
So, you think the 249 out of 286 professors that voted for the measure are all a bunch of leftist loons then. I see.
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Pretty good chance, ever been to a university?:D
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Tiggsy said:
This part if your comment really stuck out. So you're saying that Walker is not acting like an adult? What do you call thwarting the democratic process by running and hiding? WI voted these people in, so why not let them actually vote? What's so crazy about that? If it doesn't work, they will all be voted out and the new group can undo any changes that were made.
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Preventing a quorum in the face of a political opponent who refuses to negotiate in good faith is not running and hiding, it's simply politics. It's no worse than GOP senators at the federal level using anonymous holds to filibuster judicial appointments they don't like. (I'd argue the latter is even worse as it affects 2 branches of government, but then I'm admittedly biased when it comes to judicial issues).

Also, I would think certain things we'd want to insulate from political mood swings; employee compensation being one of them. Do we really want a 2- or 4- year cycle where employees are either unionized or not depending on who is in the governor's mansion? Our country's manic enough as is, so I'm generally against policy shifts that would decrease long term stability in favor of creating more "wedge" issues for short term political favor.
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Kepler said:
High SAT scores do tend to correlate with liberalism, yes.... :D
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Too bad common sense and high test scores don't correlate.

I only had a few electives but I never had a history, english, sociology, liberal arts prof etc who wasn't liberal, heck even engineering profs were liberal. I did have one math prof who was a raging conservative but he is only one I can remember .
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

So you deny the studies after studies that show the overwhelming majority of college professors are liberal?
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

WeWantMore said:
So you deny the studies after studies that show the overwhelming majority of college professors are liberal?
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No, I deny the premise that just because you are liberal means that you want to join a union.
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

ScoobyDoo said:
Like I said in the other thread. It's so nice that the left can be explained away so easily and the right is so nuanced. It makes everything easier for everyone.
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That's pretty amazing that you reach such a sweeping conclusion based on a relative handful of professors in La Crosse. But, as you say, it makes it easier for you to do so.
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

Bob Gray said:
That's pretty amazing that you reach such a sweeping conclusion based on a relative handful of professors in La Crosse. But, as you say, it makes it easier for you to do so.
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What conclusions did I post?
 
Re: Obama Presidential Thread XIX: Starting a new chapter

ScoobyDoo said:
No, I deny the premise that just because you are liberal means that you want to join a union.
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Right, of course not. I was a proud member (well, maybe not proud) of the Teamsters this past summer.

But at the same time, in pointing to a group of professors to validate whatever point you're trying to make, you've hardly picked a representative group, have you?
 
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