Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
Not according to NJ Gov;
I'm sure they get SS as well. I mean, when they get that old.
Not according to NJ Gov;
I'm sure they get SS as well. I mean, when they get that old.
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Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
- Thread starter moe24
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Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
I thought we covered this? SS, Medicare, NCLB, Unemployment Insurance, Cash for Clunkers, Cash for Calkers, Food Stamps,.... They all fall under the realm of socialism.
I thought we covered this? SS, Medicare, NCLB, Unemployment Insurance, Cash for Clunkers, Cash for Calkers, Food Stamps,.... They all fall under the realm of socialism.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
So...the Dems actually are trying to look less spineless by signing a petition to get Harry "Lord I suck" Reid to pass a public option using Reconciliation...so far 18 Dems have signed it I guess.
While I am not a fan of the Public Option, I like that they are finally not bending over and taking it from the minority party and doing what they think is best.
So...the Dems actually are trying to look less spineless by signing a petition to get Harry "Lord I suck" Reid to pass a public option using Reconciliation...so far 18 Dems have signed it I guess.
While I am not a fan of the Public Option, I like that they are finally not bending over and taking it from the minority party and doing what they think is best.
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
OK Scooby, explain to me how the public option is NOT socialism.
I know the government is selling cars, so I would have thought the next logical step would have been to start selling CAR insurance. But it appears they're back to wanting to sell health insurance. They should stick with what they are good at, selling stamps!
OK Scooby, explain to me how the public option is NOT socialism.
I know the government is selling cars, so I would have thought the next logical step would have been to start selling CAR insurance. But it appears they're back to wanting to sell health insurance. They should stick with what they are good at, selling stamps!
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
How can posters talk about socialism so casually...when they have absolutely no idea what socialism is?
Socialism is a form of economy where the public (or workers) own all means of production. You are mistakenly assuming individual govt services are socialism.
Most really want efficient government. You appear to be advocating complete anarchy where there are no public services (your socialism) such as roads or police...and where the US would be entirely vulnerable with no defense whatsoever. Sounds like a conservatives dream to me.
OK Scooby, explain to me how the public option is NOT socialism.
I know the government is selling cars, so I would have thought the next logical step would have been to start selling CAR insurance. But it appears they're back to wanting to sell health insurance. They should stick with what they are good at, selling stamps!
How can posters talk about socialism so casually...when they have absolutely no idea what socialism is?
Socialism is a form of economy where the public (or workers) own all means of production. You are mistakenly assuming individual govt services are socialism.
Most really want efficient government. You appear to be advocating complete anarchy where there are no public services (your socialism) such as roads or police...and where the US would be entirely vulnerable with no defense whatsoever. Sounds like a conservatives dream to me.
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
And the gold for "moving the bar" goes to....5mn_Major!
Even if we bought your definition that it's only socialism if the government (i.e. public) owns all means of production, it would still be correct to say that a government takeover of one more service is a move towards socialism, so you're way beyond hairsplitting.
Of course I want efficient government, but only for those functions that it has any business being in in the first place. I don't care how efficiently the government could run a car company or an airline or an investment fund for a pension plan - I would rather live in a country where those services are provided by private entities subject to market forces. Even if they were less economically efficient that way (which I doubt), the additional freedom from monopolistic government control would be worth the price.
How can posters talk about socialism so casually...when they have absolutely no idea what socialism is?
Socialism is a form of economy where the public (or workers) own all means of production. You are mistakenly assuming individual govt services are socialism.
Most really want efficient government. You appear to be advocating complete anarchy where there are no public services (your socialism) such as roads or police...and where the US would be entirely vulnerable with no defense whatsoever. Sounds like a conservatives dream to me.
And the gold for "moving the bar" goes to....5mn_Major!
Even if we bought your definition that it's only socialism if the government (i.e. public) owns all means of production, it would still be correct to say that a government takeover of one more service is a move towards socialism, so you're way beyond hairsplitting.
Of course I want efficient government, but only for those functions that it has any business being in in the first place. I don't care how efficiently the government could run a car company or an airline or an investment fund for a pension plan - I would rather live in a country where those services are provided by private entities subject to market forces. Even if they were less economically efficient that way (which I doubt), the additional freedom from monopolistic government control would be worth the price.
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Preposterous. We're nowhere near close to having even a meaurable piece of the overall private pie run by the goverment, so whether or not an individual program can be classified as socialist means nothing. It either works or it doesn't, and one can be against government expansion without resorting to hyperbole to describe the overall state of affairs.
Yes it would be, but we're not remotely near that level of government involvement of the private sector.
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
45% is "nowhere close to measurable?"
I'm not claiming that we have a socialist government. I'm not even saying that program X or Y "is" socialist. But that graph clearly shows that over the last century, the government has become a much more important - in fact, the dominant - player in the economy. That's moving towards socialism, regardless of what definition of socialism you use.
I'd prefer if the government tried to refrain from being an actual player (as much as practical) and simply tried to referee the game.
45% is "nowhere close to measurable?"
I'm not claiming that we have a socialist government. I'm not even saying that program X or Y "is" socialist. But that graph clearly shows that over the last century, the government has become a much more important - in fact, the dominant - player in the economy. That's moving towards socialism, regardless of what definition of socialism you use.
I'd prefer if the government tried to refrain from being an actual player (as much as practical) and simply tried to referee the game.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
The phrase too big to fail comes to mind. Who bails out the government when the government starts to run into problems?
The phrase too big to fail comes to mind. Who bails out the government when the government starts to run into problems?
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
Edit: LOL. My Google ad is for "MoneyMorning.com/China_Economy."
Ummmm....a bigger government?
Edit: LOL. My Google ad is for "MoneyMorning.com/China_Economy."
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
I know you know this but I'll say it anyway.
1. New Jersey didn't have to give these pensions to their workers. Or, they felt they had to to keep them as workers and passed this off to them instead of a higher salary. Companies have often done that trick where they don't want to pay you so they sway you with benefits.
2. New Jersey's (as I've found for other States as well) pension program was fully sustained and healthy. Then they started borrowing against it (just like the Feds did with Social Security) to pay other bills.
http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-4/126658771711310.xml&coll=3
Now they're in trouble.
Perhaps pension plans themselves are socialist cause every time a government entity gets involved in one they can't keep their hands out of the cookie jar. I believe myself that Social Security could have stayed solvent if it had been accounted for separately instead of part of the general ledger. But, that would have forced the government to actually raise taxes for things like war.
I know you know this but I'll say it anyway.
1. New Jersey didn't have to give these pensions to their workers. Or, they felt they had to to keep them as workers and passed this off to them instead of a higher salary. Companies have often done that trick where they don't want to pay you so they sway you with benefits.
2. New Jersey's (as I've found for other States as well) pension program was fully sustained and healthy. Then they started borrowing against it (just like the Feds did with Social Security) to pay other bills.
http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-4/126658771711310.xml&coll=3
Now they're in trouble.
Perhaps pension plans themselves are socialist cause every time a government entity gets involved in one they can't keep their hands out of the cookie jar. I believe myself that Social Security could have stayed solvent if it had been accounted for separately instead of part of the general ledger. But, that would have forced the government to actually raise taxes for things like war.
ScottM
**** it feels good to be a bankster
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
You do, and I do. In the form of higher interest rates and higher taxes, and most likely fewer services in return.
You do, and I do. In the form of higher interest rates and higher taxes, and most likely fewer services in return.
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
I blame baby boomers.
Seriously, I've never seen a generation collectively dedicated to "scamming the system" like those people. Its like anybody who came of age in the 70's is more likely to be like this. The problem now is that these are all the people at retirement age for govt work, and they've all learned how to work the system to max out on benefits, a system that generally hasn't been updated from a time when these scams weren't nearly as prevalent.
At one time higher pensions were the compensation for lower salaries during your career in public service. I'd say that aside from the absolute top end of the income earning scale, state govt work now pays a comparable amount to private sector work, so the equation no longer works. I do believe however that these workers do not collect SS, but I doubt that makes up for the generous payouts they receive (especially the retiring in your 40's at full pay crap).
I blame baby boomers.
Seriously, I've never seen a generation collectively dedicated to "scamming the system" like those people. Its like anybody who came of age in the 70's is more likely to be like this. The problem now is that these are all the people at retirement age for govt work, and they've all learned how to work the system to max out on benefits, a system that generally hasn't been updated from a time when these scams weren't nearly as prevalent. At one time higher pensions were the compensation for lower salaries during your career in public service. I'd say that aside from the absolute top end of the income earning scale, state govt work now pays a comparable amount to private sector work, so the equation no longer works. I do believe however that these workers do not collect SS, but I doubt that makes up for the generous payouts they receive (especially the retiring in your 40's at full pay crap).
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
Although there may be some govt involvement due to consumer protection, the overwhelming majority of individual products and services you and I consume are primarily based on the free market: banking, insurance, durables (autos, etc.), food, tourism, housing, etc, etc.
Those products and services that are provided by the govt are finite and serve a specific purpose that largely provided poorly by the marketplace: defense, security, infrastructure, again consumer protection. It is not that the govt has taken over everything (ie turned us into socialism), but as your graph shows is spending too much on the products and services it has. The acquisition (or in this case, choice) of one service by the govt out of the massive US market economy doesn't change anything.
Here's another way to look at it...say education costs us 60% of our GDP. Does that mean we're socialist? No, it means that we are a free market economy that spends waay too much on education.
This means that we are a free market, capitalistic economy that is having difficulty reigning in spending...and adding a public health care option doesn't change that. In the end, all this about US socialism is bs.
Although there may be some govt involvement due to consumer protection, the overwhelming majority of individual products and services you and I consume are primarily based on the free market: banking, insurance, durables (autos, etc.), food, tourism, housing, etc, etc.
Those products and services that are provided by the govt are finite and serve a specific purpose that largely provided poorly by the marketplace: defense, security, infrastructure, again consumer protection. It is not that the govt has taken over everything (ie turned us into socialism), but as your graph shows is spending too much on the products and services it has. The acquisition (or in this case, choice) of one service by the govt out of the massive US market economy doesn't change anything.
Here's another way to look at it...say education costs us 60% of our GDP. Does that mean we're socialist? No, it means that we are a free market economy that spends waay too much on education.
This means that we are a free market, capitalistic economy that is having difficulty reigning in spending...and adding a public health care option doesn't change that. In the end, all this about US socialism is bs.
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Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
That would be great, except in the real world that isn't possible or is it proven to even be better for the average person. Unless you think Health Care is working? How about all those people who have lost their pensions because the private sector ripped off their company, went bankrupt or just scammed the system and screwed everyone? Where was your precious private sector then?
The only difference between the private sector and the government is who is doing the screwing...in the end Average Joe still takes it in the tailpipe without any KY.
That would be great, except in the real world that isn't possible or is it proven to even be better for the average person. Unless you think Health Care is working? How about all those people who have lost their pensions because the private sector ripped off their company, went bankrupt or just scammed the system and screwed everyone? Where was your precious private sector then?
The only difference between the private sector and the government is who is doing the screwing...in the end Average Joe still takes it in the tailpipe without any KY.
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
That's not the same thing I was talking about and you know that. See 5mn's latest post for reference.
That's not the same thing I was talking about and you know that. See 5mn's latest post for reference.
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
Instead of playing word games and labeling something as socialism or capitalism, we clearly need to curb spending, if that goes to 60% of GDP IMF would be forcing us to cut spending and raising taxes and rating agency would be downgrading us.
The more I've looked at the health care option by democrats, worst it looked. I think the problem is not enough private competition (regulation) and too much government involvement/subsidies. I think the numbers I saw were in the 40-50% range already for healthcare. government is distorting the prices and probally driving the price up like in housing and education by creating demand and guaranteeing the cost.
We totally distorted the housing market by guaranteeing 50% via fannie/freddie and let the banking industry distort it even more via leveraging (MBS/CDO/CDS) and now 90% of houses sold in the last (few) years are guaranteed by the government. which makes housing more expensive than should be to stabilize our financial system (ie profits/balance sheet of the banks).
So I agree with the democrats that something needs to be done, but I also agree with the republican that the government is meddling too much as is. And that meddling is actually driving up the cost. so stop the guarantees, subsidies and regulate, impose prices if there isn't any effective competiiton
Affordability should be measured on actual cost and not on how much you can borrow with government guarantees. And to make something affordable (cheaper) you need to tweak the supply/demand curve in your favor.
Instead of playing word games and labeling something as socialism or capitalism, we clearly need to curb spending, if that goes to 60% of GDP IMF would be forcing us to cut spending and raising taxes and rating agency would be downgrading us.
The more I've looked at the health care option by democrats, worst it looked. I think the problem is not enough private competition (regulation) and too much government involvement/subsidies. I think the numbers I saw were in the 40-50% range already for healthcare. government is distorting the prices and probally driving the price up like in housing and education by creating demand and guaranteeing the cost.
We totally distorted the housing market by guaranteeing 50% via fannie/freddie and let the banking industry distort it even more via leveraging (MBS/CDO/CDS) and now 90% of houses sold in the last (few) years are guaranteed by the government. which makes housing more expensive than should be to stabilize our financial system (ie profits/balance sheet of the banks).
So I agree with the democrats that something needs to be done, but I also agree with the republican that the government is meddling too much as is. And that meddling is actually driving up the cost. so stop the guarantees, subsidies and regulate, impose prices if there isn't any effective competiiton
Affordability should be measured on actual cost and not on how much you can borrow with government guarantees. And to make something affordable (cheaper) you need to tweak the supply/demand curve in your favor.
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
Regardless of your position, its refreshing to see both a well thought out position...and measured as well. In the end, the govt is attempting to do everything it can via spending to improve the economy and therefore tax revenues. I don't think anyone on the board has the background and information to effectively judge this. But I am of the opinion that once the economy is back on track...that the deficit (not tax cuts) becomes the top priority.
Regardless of your position, its refreshing to see both a well thought out position...and measured as well. In the end, the govt is attempting to do everything it can via spending to improve the economy and therefore tax revenues. I don't think anyone on the board has the background and information to effectively judge this. But I am of the opinion that once the economy is back on track...that the deficit (not tax cuts) becomes the top priority.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
There's nothing wrong with some degree of intervention... where we fail is when we assume that government acts more intelligently and more morally and as a result it then becomes ethical to put all these items in the hands of the government. That's what health care is about... we expect complete government control (or larger government control) on its own by being of the government to be more fair, moral, intelligent, and ethical regardless of the effect of that solution... its an article of faith.
What's lost here is that we're in a game of false dichotomy. Instead of working hard to fix something we throw our hands up and the process and then say we need a complete take over by the moral and ethical government to do what is best for us because smart people in government will produce what's best for us... I'm sorry, that's a religious faith if I ever saw one because its such an incredibly large supposition on the ultimate ability of government to produce what is righteous and fair to man. In the end we end up usurping our own decisions to an unknown entity of the state. There are points in between "super-free-market" and "total state control"... but what we're doing is declaring health providers as sinners and we seek for the ultimate solution for the removal of that sin.
I have no love for the insurance companies but it seems to me if the costs of insurance is the problem then there must be other means to create competition to force these items down in cost... after-all if there's money to be made then somebody is going to want to make it. There is so many other things that can be done but we don't do so because we've given up on the idea that we can get people to fix this. There's only political will for one theme of solution because Republicans will (idiotically) defend companies above all else regardless of consequences and the Democrats are only interested in solutions that come out of their grab bag of social utopian goals that will some how bring us to harmony and unicorns.
The problem is the only solution we have available to use to "fix" things is once borne out of only politicians who want to change things and we have to do it in their ridiculously over-bearing ham-fisted way. I'm sorry, that's bull****.
There's nothing wrong with some degree of intervention... where we fail is when we assume that government acts more intelligently and more morally and as a result it then becomes ethical to put all these items in the hands of the government. That's what health care is about... we expect complete government control (or larger government control) on its own by being of the government to be more fair, moral, intelligent, and ethical regardless of the effect of that solution... its an article of faith.
What's lost here is that we're in a game of false dichotomy. Instead of working hard to fix something we throw our hands up and the process and then say we need a complete take over by the moral and ethical government to do what is best for us because smart people in government will produce what's best for us... I'm sorry, that's a religious faith if I ever saw one because its such an incredibly large supposition on the ultimate ability of government to produce what is righteous and fair to man. In the end we end up usurping our own decisions to an unknown entity of the state. There are points in between "super-free-market" and "total state control"... but what we're doing is declaring health providers as sinners and we seek for the ultimate solution for the removal of that sin.
I have no love for the insurance companies but it seems to me if the costs of insurance is the problem then there must be other means to create competition to force these items down in cost... after-all if there's money to be made then somebody is going to want to make it. There is so many other things that can be done but we don't do so because we've given up on the idea that we can get people to fix this. There's only political will for one theme of solution because Republicans will (idiotically) defend companies above all else regardless of consequences and the Democrats are only interested in solutions that come out of their grab bag of social utopian goals that will some how bring us to harmony and unicorns.
The problem is the only solution we have available to use to "fix" things is once borne out of only politicians who want to change things and we have to do it in their ridiculously over-bearing ham-fisted way. I'm sorry, that's bull****.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now
Hey you are preaching to the choir...I don't like this at all. It is a BS fix to the problem.
I only like that the Dems finally have decided that they are not going to go the French Route on their ideas. (RETREAT!!!) Take a stand, draw a line in the sand and man up already. The GOP have been given too much time and space to frame the debate, the Dems need to put up or shut up.
I know Eliot Spitzer is a joke these days, but if you ever get a chance to hear him rip into the Democratic Party (of which he is a part) it perfectly parallels my thoughts on this whole thing. They are spineless, and they act like whimpering children. They are so worried about upsetting someone that they ignore everything else. You cant please everyone, so why try?
Hey you are preaching to the choir...I don't like this at all. It is a BS fix to the problem.
I only like that the Dems finally have decided that they are not going to go the French Route on their ideas. (RETREAT!!!) Take a stand, draw a line in the sand and man up already. The GOP have been given too much time and space to frame the debate, the Dems need to put up or shut up.
I know Eliot Spitzer is a joke these days, but if you ever get a chance to hear him rip into the Democratic Party (of which he is a part) it perfectly parallels my thoughts on this whole thing. They are spineless, and they act like whimpering children. They are so worried about upsetting someone that they ignore everything else. You cant please everyone, so why try?
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