Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

[PSUChamps2001]

Keep your cookie thanks....I just did a quick check and in Norwich's first 8 games this year they already have two 5 min penalties, Pier 5 min High Stick(played the next game) must not have been as bad as the refs call eh?/ and Baked a 5 min Boarding call(again played the next game) I am sure if I wanted to waste more time on this I could find instances where a pLattsburgh player played right after a flagrant call

a high stick or even a boarding call is not a cheap shot at the end of a game..

highly unlikely...go ahead....be my guest. Id be shocked if you did.

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

a high stick or even a boarding call is not a cheap shot at the end of a game..

highly unlikely...go ahead....be my guest. Id be shocked if you did.

Bottom line when I played.83-87, the BUTTEND was the LOWEST thing a player could do to another, maybe things have changed ??? Bottomline that kid had better have his head up next time they meet, or maybe that has changed as well??? Gotta say, good game and Castleton has talent and will have to be with dealt with for sure..

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

Keep your cookie thanks....I just did a quick check and in Norwich's first 8 games this year they already have two 5 min penalties, Pier 5 min High Stick(played the next game) must not have been as bad as the refs call eh?/ and Baked a 5 min Boarding call(again played the next game) I am sure if I wanted to waste more time on this I could find instances where a pLattsburgh player played right after a flagrant call

Were you at those games? Did you see those hits? You can't judge the severity or flagrancy of an incident by looking at a score sheet. Refs vary in interpretations, so what is called a 5minute one night might not be called a penalty at all the next. Take, for example Friday's Lawrence-Finlandia. Mind telling me what exactly happened at 18:47 of the second, since clearly you can interpret an entire incident based on a score sheet? No? Okay. We move on...

Also, notice that the player in the 3rd period who was penalized for facemasking was given a DQ, whereas the Norwich player in your example was given a Game Misconduct. You know what the difference in those punishments is, according to the rulebook? Facemasking without a DQ is pretty much any movement of the glove to the vicinity of the facemaks as perceived by the official. (key word: perceived. Look it up.) The DQ is given when the player grasps the cage and forcefully moves it. I'd say there's a huge difference between putting your hand up near a guys face and actually grabbing his cage.

Anyway, as I said, refs will vary in how they interpret a situation. They call based on how they see it. It is then up to the coach to review the tape and decide, based on his consistent standards of interpretation, whether to give out supplemental discipline. Those standards vary from coach to coach, but as long as a particular coach is consistent (and hold his athletes to a respectable standard), that is fine. None of us here on this board are justified in criticizing a coach as long as he meets that qualification. That is why NUProf apologized for his statement, and that is why you will see no criticism of Coach Todd in my post.


That said, are Norwich and Plattsburgh a bunch of choir boys? Not in the least. I've seen some real ugly stuff from both teams. But both are consistently among the least penalized teams in the league (PLEASE don't pull up stats from a single year, specially one that isn't completed. "Consistent" refers to a far longer period of time than any single year, and allows for anomalies). Why is that? Both have coaches who hold their athletes to very high standards. I've seen both coaches bench players for off-ice nonsense. I've seen players benched for on-ice stuff that wasn't called by the officials at all. I've even seen Emery give a player an early shower in a game when the ref didn't call a thing. Are they perfect? No. But are they as consistent as humanly possible in their interpretations of situations and their justifications for giving (or not giving) particular ppunishments? Seems that way to me.

Look, the reality here is that people aren't letting this buffoonery take away from the skill of them team. Castleton is a really good team. Very skilled. The general message here is that Castleton is SO good that they shouldn't have to resort to idiotic acts of violence and aggression that do absolutely nothing towards getting a win. And yet some of their players still don't get that. So now it's on Coach Todd to help them get it. If he decides that discipline should involve some time in a suit instead of pads, so be it. If he decides that discipline should come in some other form that we on this board are unable to know about, that's fine by me as well. We'll know it happened when we stop seeing the stupidity on the ice.

And with that, sir, I bid you good day.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

Keep your cookie thanks....I just did a quick check and in Norwich's first 8 games this year they already have two 5 min penalties, Pier 5 min High Stick(played the next game) must not have been as bad as the refs call eh?/ and Baked a 5 min Boarding call(again played the next game) I am sure if I wanted to waste more time on this I could find instances where a pLattsburgh player played right after a flagrant call

Also: Why not bring up Baker's 5-minute elbow and game misconduct in the Dartmouth game? Because it was an exhibition? (Note: The NCAA view that game as being no different from a game vs. St. Mike's) Because you didn't know about it? Or was it because you already know that event the Dartmouth fans called the ref out on that BS, and that would undermine your point (and, as it so happens, substantiate mine)?

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

Keep your cookie thanks....I just did a quick check and in Norwich's first 8 games this year they already have two 5 min penalties, Pier 5 min High Stick(played the next game) must not have been as bad as the refs call eh?/ and Baked a 5 min Boarding call(again played the next game) I am sure if I wanted to waste more time on this I could find instances where a pLattsburgh player played right after a flagrant call

The difference being a spear or butt-end will also get a misconduct or game DQ because of the severity. A severe high stick or boarding might also get a game misconduct, but neither did in these two cases.

 

[hawk]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

Also: Why not bring up Baker's 5-minute elbow and game misconduct in the Dartmouth game? Because it was an exhibition? (Note: The NCAA view that game as being no different from a game vs. St. Mike's) Because you didn't know about it? Or was it because you already know that event the Dartmouth fans called the ref out on that BS, and that would undermine your point (and, as it so happens, substantiate mine)?

I got to throw my 2 cents worth in on this one. I attended the Dartmouth game and for whatever reason the game got a little rough toward the end. Dartmouth had a 5 minute hitting from behind with a game misconduct at 14.45. The Shawn Baker penalty appeared to be a clean hit at center near the end of the game that was called elbowing. I am not sure why the penalty included a misconduct.

 

[gr8day4hockey]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

The difference being a spear or butt-end will also get a game misconduct because of the severity. A severe high stick or boarding might also get a game misconduct, but neither did in thiese two cases.

I agree with you, all in interpretation, and I can assure you I have seen more Castleton games than you or the rest of the critics, so you must be making assumptions as well! I would gladly let you pool cue butt end me as Frost did in sliding thru one hand to the butt if you let me high stick you to the head or take a run at you and board you! a 5 min penalty was a way to keep a player in the game and may or may not have been severe, as for this butt end it was neither sever or to the head.....but as we have all learned from reading this forum the only comments that matter are those of the good ole boys and youo all pat each other on the back and glad hand each other....note in my post I did agree with the lack of control in prior years but believe they made great strides last year and has continued to this year

 

[gr8day4hockey]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

Were you at those games? Did you see those hits? You can't judge the severity or flagrancy of an incident by looking at a score sheet. Refs vary in interpretations, so what is called a 5minute one night might not be called a penalty at all the next. Take, for example Friday's Lawrence-Finlandia. Mind telling me what exactly happened at 18:47 of the second, since clearly you can interpret an entire incident based on a score sheet? No? Okay. We move on...

Also, notice that the player in the 3rd period who was penalized for facemasking was given a DQ, whereas the Norwich player in your example was given a Game Misconduct. You know what the difference in those punishments is, according to the rulebook? Facemasking without a DQ is pretty much any movement of the glove to the vicinity of the facemaks as perceived by the official. (key word: perceived. Look it up.) The DQ is given when the player grasps the cage and forcefully moves it. I'd say there's a huge difference between putting your hand up near a guys face and actually grabbing his cage.

Anyway, as I said, refs will vary in how they interpret a situation. They call based on how they see it. It is then up to the coach to review the tape and decide, based on his consistent standards of interpretation, whether to give out supplemental discipline. Those standards vary from coach to coach, but as long as a particular coach is consistent (and hold his athletes to a respectable standard), that is fine. None of us here on this board are justified in criticizing a coach as long as he meets that qualification. That is why NUProf apologized for his statement, and that is why you will see no criticism of Coach Todd in my post.


That said, are Norwich and Plattsburgh a bunch of choir boys? Not in the least. I've seen some real ugly stuff from both teams. But both are consistently among the least penalized teams in the league (PLEASE don't pull up stats from a single year, specially one that isn't completed. "Consistent" refers to a far longer period of time than any single year, and allows for anomalies). Why is that? Both have coaches who hold their athletes to very high standards. I've seen both coaches bench players for off-ice nonsense. I've seen players benched for on-ice stuff that wasn't called by the officials at all. I've even seen Emery give a player an early shower in a game when the ref didn't call a thing. Are they perfect? No. But are they as consistent as humanly possible in their interpretations of situations and their justifications for giving (or not giving) particular ppunishments? Seems that way to me.

Look, the reality here is that people aren't letting this buffoonery take away from the skill of them team. Castleton is a really good team. Very skilled. The general message here is that Castleton is SO good that they shouldn't have to resort to idiotic acts of violence and aggression that do absolutely nothing towards getting a win. And yet some of their players still don't get that. So now it's on Coach Todd to help them get it. If he decides that discipline should involve some time in a suit instead of pads, so be it. If he decides that discipline should come in some other form that we on this board are unable to know about, that's fine by me as well. We'll know it happened when we stop seeing the stupidity on the ice.

And with that, sir, I bid you good day.

So then based on this post what was "perceived" by the official at the end of the game must not have been bad enough to make a call at all??!! Just like the 2 slashs on the goalie in the first period...come on you can't have it both ways at least have some integrity to allow things both ways but I know only your perception is the way it should be, you guys crack me up!

 

[gr8day4hockey]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

a high stick or even a boarding call is not a cheap shot at the end of a game..

highly unlikely...go ahead....be my guest. Id be shocked if you did.

Some of the boarding penalties I have seen given are some of the cheapest shots out there and many should be hitting from behind and game misconducts but they are "perceived" by the officialas a board instead....semantics ....I do agree that a butt end is lowest of lows but then there are butt end and what Frost did( don't take wjhat I am saying out of context he was wrong) but it was not a 2 hand on the stick both hands forcefully projecting the end of the stick at a player, a cheap shot can also be slashing the goalie after the whistle umm

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

I agree with you, all in interpretation, and I can assure you I have seen more Castleton games than you or the rest of the critics, so you must be making assumptions as well! I would gladly let you pool cue butt end me as Frost did in sliding thru one hand to the butt if you let me high stick you to the head or take a run at you and board you! a 5 min penalty was a way to keep a player in the game and may or may not have been severe, as for this butt end it was neither sever or to the head.....but as we have all learned from reading this forum the only comments that matter are those of the good ole boys and youo all pat each other on the back and glad hand each other....note in my post I did agree with the lack of control in prior years but believe they made great strides last year and has continued to this year

You might have noticed I didn't comment on the action before, only the discussion of the penalties for the infractions. Now I'll comment. I did see the clip, and it was not a severe action, more of a poke.There need not be ANY CONTACT to be called a butt-end. Only the APPEARENCE of the motion towards an opponent is necessary. No interpretation is needed.

 

[gr8day4hockey]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

You might have noticed I didn't comment on the action before, only the discussion of the penalties for the infractions. Now I'll comment. I did see the clip, and it was not a severe action, more of a poke.There need not be ANY CONTACT to be called a butt-end. Only the APPEARENCE of the motion towards an opponent is necessary. No interpretation is needed.

And again I do not disagree with your point, the problem I have with most of the posts, you would think the kid 2 hand butt ended the player to the head...what he did was wrong but so is hitting a goalie after the whistle...2 TIMES!! Don't get me wrong, I voiced my opinions to many at Castleton games in the past about the dumb penalties, but I am giving credit for the last 2 seasons and what has probably been the largest turn around in penalty minutes from 2 years ago...do they still need to cool the crap, yes I agree but I also see teams that typically do not take the dumb penalties have a brain fart and take one...Castleton has made good strides and will take more I am sure but the constant bad mouthing of the program is wrong, I can assure you Todd does take matters under control, in one of the first 2 games of the year he sent Alonzo to the locker room....we all may not see what actions he takes but I do know he does take measures

 

[Old Rook NU'66]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

I have been following this discussion of Castleton/Norwich closely. I do recall Mike McShane yanking a player from a game after that Cadet had taken a cheap shot that had not been seen by the refs. The kid sat out the rest of the game. But in fairness--and in the real world of an important close game-- I am not sure what any coach might do.

But how about remembering why penalties are awarded in the first place. I just read the NCAA rules on penalties like head butting, elbowing, spearing, charging, cross checking and tripping and they have been designed to protect players from getting hurt. Tell me otherwise? That is the whole point--keeping kids safe and the actual assessing of a penalty is only a consequence after one player dangerously engaging another player with the risk that someone will get hurt.

Forget Castleton and NU for a moment. The question really is what motivates a coach, who year after year, finds his team near the top of the statistical heap in terms of penalties assessed against his team--but allows his team to continue to goon it up. Doesn't that kind of habitual conduct by any team really says that the coach is willing to put an opponent's players at risk for the sake of a win. However before you arrive at any conclusion about any club--I agree with Cards-Rule-the-Burg who insists you really have to look at a team over a three or four year period to get a sense of how often they are often and consistently penalized before you blame coaching. In the last 15 years I have seen Norwich play one club who seems far more guilty of "zealous on-ice aggression" than Castleton.

As for Castleton versus Norwich. Castleton is a good hockey team--certainly better than all this negative discussion really warrants. I saw what everyone else saw and like as many I have my opinion. And maybe I am just reading too much into the the situation but based on the numbers there may be more important strategic consequence for Castleton.

Assume Castleton continues to average 4 more penalty minutes (or 2 more penalties per game) than Norwich (or Plattsburg). At the same time assume the Cadets continue to lead Div III statistics in terms of converting their power play opportunities into goals (36%). It would seem to me that on paper that combination would give Norwich a strong edge in the February 11th game? By that I mean, all things being equal-- NU will likely have more two more PP scoring opportunities and when they do--a strong statistical history of scoring when they have that man advantage?

And if Castleton is guilty as charged--and I am not convinced they are-- but the Spartans are now ready to retooled themselves with an eye towards toning down the number of penalties they collect each game in anticipation of closer games against stronger teams (Norwich or Plattsburg}--then they need to start now. I am not convinced you can just turn edgy on-ice aggression on and off--depending solely on the opponent, the game situation or both.

 

[3rdLiner]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

You're not even half way through the season. Nice try. Hense the reason I said year(S) not the first 10 games of the season. Strides yes, want a cookie? Facts are facts and Castleton needs to worry more about hockey if they want to make the next step at becoming a contender. And it starts with the coach. Its a sad shame nothing was done and probably wont. A coach needs to have control of his team and when you've averaged in the top third in penalty minutes and you STILL see crap like this, you have to question.

I would just like to say that I have met Coach Todd and think he is a really nice guy. He loves to talk hockey and always has time to chat with anyone who would like to talk to him. My guess is that those of you who do not like him have never met him. I also know that his players have a sterling reputation on campus and in the community. I know they volunteer a lot and have very good grades. Some of coach Todd's former players are staying in the area and planting some roots, based on the excellent experiences that they had with coach Todd and at Castleton. In talking to these former players they cannot stress enough how serious, and disciplined coach Todd is about hockey. They told stories to Coach Todd making the entire team watch every penalty from every game in an effort to make sure they stop taking penalties, how coach Todd brings in an NCAA ref every year to explain all points of emphasis, and makes every player watch the NCAA rules video 3 times before the season starts. He has a formal penalty policy that is in effect for all players all year.

I have also seen him on 3 separate occasions send players off the bench to the locker room and out of the game for bad penalties during a game, he also, quite famously did not let players return to the bench after a period where they misbehaved. Coach Todd has a reputation every where except for on this board as a hard nosed disciplinarian who has very little tolerance for poor behavior. I feel that the majority of his penalties are because his teams are not that talented and still try to win and when they cannot skate with a Midd, Norwich or Platty they hook and hold. I doubt that Platty or Norwich would play them in Non Conference games if they thought what the fans on this board thought.

I also think his back ground of USHL, Division 1, and Minor Pro is what a lot of the young coaches are doing now. People like Beaney, McShane, and Emery and going to be gone sooner rather than later, and I have a feeling that coaches no longer have the ability to do the things that older coaches did, because the landscape of USA hockey has changed so much in the last 20 years. So I hope when new coaches come into Platty, Midd, and Norwich, everyone can stay consistent and hate them and love coach Todd as it appears that the his biggest sin is being new and different.

We have some of the Best College hockey right here, and we have to hate on it and tear it apart rather than celebrate and enjoy it. There are paid professionals that will take care of any problems and let regular fans like us enjoy hockey rather than finding someone or something to hate.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

So then based on this post what was "perceived" by the official at the end of the game must not have been bad enough to make a call at all??!! Just like the 2 slashs on the goalie in the first period...come on you can't have it both ways at least have some integrity to allow things both ways but I know only your perception is the way it should be, you guys crack me up!

Did I give my interpretation of those specific incidents anywhere in my post? No. Why? I didn't see them, didn't watch those particular games.

I was simply stating that you can't look at a score sheet and say "Hey! Look! He got called for a Major, and played the next game! Bad coach is bad!". Which is, essentially, what you were saying.

Now, as for my interpretation of the Castleton player's butt-ending (which, obviously, I DID see):
1. Was it severe contact, outright intent to injure? No. I'm not going to pretend it was.
2. Was it an act of aggression or violence? Yes. But so is 90% of what happens on the ice.
3. Was it completely unnecessary and non-productive towards the goal of winning a game? Absolutely, no doubt about it.

In my honest opinion, if an incident is any 2 of these 3 things, it should be a penalized infraction, whether by on-ice officials, league administration, or team coaching staff - whichever is most appropriate to the incident. This incident definitely meets 2 of these 3 requirements, and in my opinion (which you are free to disagree with), the appropriate source of punishment, the on-ice officials having failed to see it, is the coaching staff.

 

[wickfan]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

I think the knee shot to thomas was worse than the butt end no call

 

[AldenPartridge1819]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

...what he did was wrong but so is hitting a goalie after the whistle...2 TIMES!!

I haven't jumped in because you've had enough people to battle. However, you keep talking about these goalie slashes. I'm sorry but it didn't happen like that. I sit right by the net. The norwich player jabbed at the puck a couple of times, jabbed at it. Before the whistle, before the whistle. It was a great play. Kids are taught to play the whistle. He did. If you want to get made at the ref for a slow stoppage, that's fine, but there was no slash after the whistle. None.

 

[gr8day4hockey]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

I haven't jumped in because you've had enough people to battle. However, you keep talking about these goalie slashes. I'm sorry but it didn't happen like that. I sit right by the net. The norwich player jabbed at the puck a couple of times, jabbed at it. Before the whistle, before the whistle. It was a great play. Kids are taught to play the whistle. He did. If you want to get made at the ref for a slow stoppage, that's fine, but there was no slash after the whistle. None.

We were right there as well and did hear the whistle as later confirmed by my wife watching the feed from home and even they mentioned it....as I've said before perception....and we happen to disagree on this...there is no battle here, I don't disagree that Frost made a dumb move there wer a few by both teams, for everyone to be blasting Todd is crazy, noone knows what actions he has or will take and it is not his place to discipline players to everyones satisfaction, it is not fair to call this team a team of goons, this program has worked hard at improving on cutting down on the penalties and from 2 years ago to last year and the beginning of this year there has been marked improvement.....I do know for a fact that there have been actions taken on players this year

 

[AldenPartridge1819]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

We were right there as well and did hear the whistle as later confirmed by my wife watching the feed from home and even they mentioned it....as I've said before perception....and we happen to disagree on this...there is no battle here, I don't disagree that Frost made a dumb move there wer a few by both teams, for everyone to be blasting Todd is crazy, noone knows what actions he has or will take and it is not his place to discipline players to everyones satisfaction, it is not fair to call this team a team of goons, this program has worked hard at improving on cutting down on the penalties and from 2 years ago to last year and the beginning of this year there has been marked improvement.....I do know for a fact that there have been actions taken on players this year

Why are you so defensive? I was talking about a whistle/timing play. You need to give it up.

On topic, how do people feel about a possible goalie controversy in Northfield. I was very impressed by Czarnota. I'd like to see him get a few more chances.

 

[CSC Dad]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

Were you at those games? Did you see those hits? You can't judge the severity or flagrancy of an incident by looking at a score sheet. Refs vary in interpretations, so what is called a 5minute one night might not be called a penalty at all the next.

Did you attend last February's Castleton Norwich game?

Also, notice that the player in the 3rd period who was penalized for facemasking was given a DQ, whereas the Norwich player in your example was given a Game Misconduct. You know what the difference in those punishments is, according to the rulebook? Facemasking without a DQ is pretty much any movement of the glove to the vicinity of the facemaks as perceived by the official. (key word: perceived. Look it up.) The DQ is given when the player grasps the cage and forcefully moves it. I'd say there's a huge difference between putting your hand up near a guys face and actually grabbing his cage.

The Norwich player in the example I cited ripped the Castleton player's helmet off. There was a lot more than "movement of the glove to the vicinity of the facemask", but yet you assumed by looking at the score sheet that since it was a Norwich player then it was just movement of the glove to the vicinity of the facemask.

You fell into your own trap and highlighted my point by assuming that since a Norwich player was involved then it was just a minor thing. However I spoke about at thei time and a Norwich follower brushed it off as an "aberration".

Here is the oriningal thread:
http://board.uscho.com/showthread.p...cries-whines-objections-complaints-here/page2

Re: Post all your cries whines, objections, complaints here

Quote Originally Posted by jerrynu26 View Post
Perhaps because it was an aberation, not a consistant thing. As far as "destroying the interlock", shouldn't you be asking NESCAC people that?
A referee has the ability to determine whether the penalty was the result of excess force or effort and therefore more dangerous and can make a penalty a major penalty. The ref called the facemask penalty as a 5 minute penalty due to the seriousness of the play. The penalties amased by the CSC player were all 2 minute penalties therefore were deem to be mistakes can be made at the speed of the game in the view of the game refs.

However ripping an opposing players helmet off his head is not something that "just happens" and can not in IMO be an aberration in any way. It puts the opposing player at great risk since once the helmet is off that player is more susceptible to head injuries. If both players took off their helmets, which is considered the proper protocol, if they choose to fight then things are equal and both players accept the extra risk.

Norwich fans felt that the CSC President should step in to rein in the accumulation of penalties and expressed that coaches (implying their coach) routinely disciplines players for inappropiate play, yet you call a serious situation that was totally in the control of the player an aberratrion.

As an interesting note - I do agree over the years that some CSC players should be reminded in someway (benched?) that they take stupid penalties, but that is something Coach Todd controls. He has done it on occasion but IMO should be more proactive. Time will tell - most coaches adjust thir coaching style as the years pass.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Norwich Cadets Hockey 2011-2012: In Search of a Title

Why are you so defensive? I was talking about a whistle/timing play. You need to give it up.

On topic, how do people feel about a possible goalie controversy in Northfield. I was very impressed by Czarnota. I'd like to see him get a few more chances.

Although Chris played well and is 10 times better than where he was last year...I assure there is no goalie controversy in Northfield. It's Parkers job until/if he ever really hits a rough patch.