Bog Hockey
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Norwich 2022-23 Back to Normal (ish)
- Thread starter jerrynu26
- Start date
Really, is that your contribution to a very real and growing issue? Troll elsewhere.
Lord_Zubin
Puck Flattsburgh!!!
Are u guys okay? Do y'all need a hug or a drink or a vacation or something?
AmericanCadet
New member
I am newer to Vermont and love D3 hockey. I have watched as many home Norwich games as possible during the three years I have been here. I would like to provide some insight financially.
I compared the financial statements of Hobart June 2022 and Norwich May 2022 and 2023. Financially it appears these two schools are similar. Similar revenue, similar endowments. Hobart lost $41M during the year ending June 2022 and Norwich lost $44M during year ending May 2022 and $12M the year ending May 2023.
The United States of course dealt with COVID but they are also dealing with GenZ. GenZ is a small generation. For sure a number of colleges will go under in the next 10 years. $12M is a big loss for a college the size of Norwich. I don’t think they can rely on large increases in enrollment or increasing tuition to deal with these losses. Schools across America will be vying for smaller numbers of people. Increased costs and smaller scholarships will likely not work well for Norwich as other schools, will maintain costs or increase scholarships to survive.
Just focusing on athletics alone, my personal belief is Norwich needs to look in the mirror and make tough decisions across all of their athletic programs. Football is a VERY expensive sport. I think based on Norwich’s football history, that eliminating football as a program is a good idea. As schools fight for fewer students, I don’t see Norwich winning that battle for D3 football players. Hockey, they can still complete, especially if monies were reallocated to the hockey programs. Time is not on their side for this decision. As pointed out in this thread Norwich is going for the increased cost model in 2024, and this will handcuff Ellsworth. Attracting hockey talent is not guaranteed based on one’s arena, Norwich can easily be the new Middlebury. Ultimately money talks. Hockey scholarships will be required, great locker rooms, top notch equipment provided for free or low cost and housing is required. This can be accomplished by axing the football program.
Sorry to Norwich football fans, but the college must determine what sports they can compete with and what sports they can afford. Sabine Field won’t go fallow, as the field can host rugby, soccer and lacrosse…..all currently competitive programs.
Yes donors will be upset, but the case must be made. Does Norwich want a .500 hockey club, where the highlight of the year is beating a lower ranked team once or twice, with Middlebury hockey attendance figures?
Keeping the football team won’t lead Norwich to athletic glory either. If they were to win 4 games a year, that would be considered a monumental success.
I compared the financial statements of Hobart June 2022 and Norwich May 2022 and 2023. Financially it appears these two schools are similar. Similar revenue, similar endowments. Hobart lost $41M during the year ending June 2022 and Norwich lost $44M during year ending May 2022 and $12M the year ending May 2023.
The United States of course dealt with COVID but they are also dealing with GenZ. GenZ is a small generation. For sure a number of colleges will go under in the next 10 years. $12M is a big loss for a college the size of Norwich. I don’t think they can rely on large increases in enrollment or increasing tuition to deal with these losses. Schools across America will be vying for smaller numbers of people. Increased costs and smaller scholarships will likely not work well for Norwich as other schools, will maintain costs or increase scholarships to survive.
Just focusing on athletics alone, my personal belief is Norwich needs to look in the mirror and make tough decisions across all of their athletic programs. Football is a VERY expensive sport. I think based on Norwich’s football history, that eliminating football as a program is a good idea. As schools fight for fewer students, I don’t see Norwich winning that battle for D3 football players. Hockey, they can still complete, especially if monies were reallocated to the hockey programs. Time is not on their side for this decision. As pointed out in this thread Norwich is going for the increased cost model in 2024, and this will handcuff Ellsworth. Attracting hockey talent is not guaranteed based on one’s arena, Norwich can easily be the new Middlebury. Ultimately money talks. Hockey scholarships will be required, great locker rooms, top notch equipment provided for free or low cost and housing is required. This can be accomplished by axing the football program.
Sorry to Norwich football fans, but the college must determine what sports they can compete with and what sports they can afford. Sabine Field won’t go fallow, as the field can host rugby, soccer and lacrosse…..all currently competitive programs.
Yes donors will be upset, but the case must be made. Does Norwich want a .500 hockey club, where the highlight of the year is beating a lower ranked team once or twice, with Middlebury hockey attendance figures?
Keeping the football team won’t lead Norwich to athletic glory either. If they were to win 4 games a year, that would be considered a monumental success.
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AmericanCadet
New member
My comments on the USM game. It was Ellsworth’s fault. What I saw was an extreme defensive strategy…it was their Hobart philosophy. Careful spending numbers into the offensive zone, keep defense deep and clog the shooting lanes in the defensive zone. This was not appropriate against USM…. USM, of course, blanketed Kerner, and started to really look to break out turnovers on the wing. There guys were going HARD in the 2nd and 3rd down the wings…and it finally worked.
Norwich isn’t inept offensively, but going down can be a problem as they aren’t great either. While Ellsworth’s strategy almost worked, it was silly against a team like USM.
Norwich isn’t inept offensively, but going down can be a problem as they aren’t great either. While Ellsworth’s strategy almost worked, it was silly against a team like USM.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Small D3 schools are actually adding football programs. At a fairly rapid level. Look at Hilbert. A tiny school.
Why, you ask? Enrollment. A football program wil bring in about 120 paying students (since D3 doesn't give away athletic scholarships) when all is said and done. Now, would some of those stundets have attended without football? We don't know that. But D3 schools have definitely taken this strategy.
Yes it felt like he was trying to win the game 1-0.
RJ...you are spot on ....D3 Football is an important revenue producer via tuition, fees, etc for 100+ men on campus, and plenty of schools have added Football for the HS athlete that just wants to give it 4 more years, even if playing time is limited. No Football probably means a minority of those student athletes are attending your college. From my quick research, Norwich net cost is between 25-30k, if you lose 75(Norwich has 88) football players, that's well over $2 million conservatively, and even subtracting the expense of the program, you'd still lose about 1.5 million in revenue.
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AmericanCadet
New member
I decided to look at some more college’s financial situations in the NEHC. Salve Regina, is TINY. They don’t have a big endowment and lost money. Babson is significantly bigger, bigger revenue, bigger endowment and the made money last year. I couldn’t find actual financial statements for Elmira, but I did find an article that said they took a beating during COVID. UMass Boston is in BAD shape and USM lost money in 2023.
i pondered the comments regarding football and did some digging. Obviously D1 and D3 are completely different, but I did find this article https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/Finances/2021RES_D3-RevExpReport.pdf.
This article does NOT include tuition from football players, but the conclusion was the net negative revenue for the average D3 football program in 2020 was $2.2M. The article also demonstrated that costs were increasing rapidly….and this article was through 2020, which doesn’t include recent high inflation. Additionally everything costs more in the NorthEast, so I think the Norwich is above average for D3 football.
I also found this dated report from the NCAA about D3 sports. The value I took from it was the cost of the average football program was double the average hockey programs cost. Also the article reminds us the costs that we don’t think of. http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D32015RevExp.pdf
While not as confident as before, I still believe football is a negative for Norwich. Ultimately the University must survive as an educational institution and they must deal with a current $12M loss.
What is the solution? I think you go to the heavy hitting donors and ask them their opinion and their help. Do you want to keep football and hockey? Do you want a competitive hockey program (the reality football will simply not be competitive at Norwich)? If the donors want competitive hockey, they need to cough up more dough. While you can’t give these guys scholarships, you can make it that they don’t have to pay a cent for equipment and have up to date locker rooms.
The college has to right size their programs. The school needs a President that cares about the hockey.
i pondered the comments regarding football and did some digging. Obviously D1 and D3 are completely different, but I did find this article https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/Finances/2021RES_D3-RevExpReport.pdf.
This article does NOT include tuition from football players, but the conclusion was the net negative revenue for the average D3 football program in 2020 was $2.2M. The article also demonstrated that costs were increasing rapidly….and this article was through 2020, which doesn’t include recent high inflation. Additionally everything costs more in the NorthEast, so I think the Norwich is above average for D3 football.
I also found this dated report from the NCAA about D3 sports. The value I took from it was the cost of the average football program was double the average hockey programs cost. Also the article reminds us the costs that we don’t think of. http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D32015RevExp.pdf
While not as confident as before, I still believe football is a negative for Norwich. Ultimately the University must survive as an educational institution and they must deal with a current $12M loss.
What is the solution? I think you go to the heavy hitting donors and ask them their opinion and their help. Do you want to keep football and hockey? Do you want a competitive hockey program (the reality football will simply not be competitive at Norwich)? If the donors want competitive hockey, they need to cough up more dough. While you can’t give these guys scholarships, you can make it that they don’t have to pay a cent for equipment and have up to date locker rooms.
The college has to right size their programs. The school needs a President that cares about the hockey.
AmericanCadet
New member
I decided to look at some more college’s financial situations in the NEHC. Salve Regina, is TINY. They don’t have a big endowment and lost money. Babson is significantly bigger, bigger revenue, bigger endowment and the made money last year. I couldn’t find actual financial statements for Elmira, but I did find an article that said they took a beating during COVID. UMass Boston is in BAD shape and USM lost money in 2023.
i pondered the comments regarding football and did some digging. Obviously D1 and D3 are completely different, but I did find this article https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/Finances/2021RES_D3-RevExpReport.pdf.
This article does NOT include tuition from football players, but the conclusion was the net negative revenue for the average D3 football program in 2020 was $2.2M. The article also demonstrated that costs were increasing rapidly….and this article was through 2020, which doesn’t include recent high inflation. Additionally everything costs more in the NorthEast, so I think the Norwich is above average for D3 football.
I also found this dated report from the NCAA about D3 sports. The value I took from it was the cost of the average football program was double the average hockey programs cost. Also the article reminds us the costs that we don’t think of. http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D32015RevExp.pdf
While not as confident as before, I still believe football is a negative for Norwich. Ultimately the University must survive as an educational institution and they must deal with a current $12M loss.
What is the solution? I think you go to the heavy hitting donors and ask them their opinion and their help. Do you want to keep football and hockey? Do you want a competitive hockey program (the reality football will simply not be competitive at Norwich)? If the donors want competitive hockey, they need to cough up more dough. While you can’t give these guys scholarships, you can make it that they don’t have to pay a cent for equipment and have up to date locker rooms.
The college has to right size their programs. The school needs a President that cares about the hockey.
i pondered the comments regarding football and did some digging. Obviously D1 and D3 are completely different, but I did find this article https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/research/Finances/2021RES_D3-RevExpReport.pdf.
This article does NOT include tuition from football players, but the conclusion was the net negative revenue for the average D3 football program in 2020 was $2.2M. The article also demonstrated that costs were increasing rapidly….and this article was through 2020, which doesn’t include recent high inflation. Additionally everything costs more in the NorthEast, so I think the Norwich is above average for D3 football.
I also found this dated report from the NCAA about D3 sports. The value I took from it was the cost of the average football program was double the average hockey programs cost. Also the article reminds us the costs that we don’t think of. http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D32015RevExp.pdf
While not as confident as before, I still believe football is a negative for Norwich. Ultimately the University must survive as an educational institution and they must deal with a current $12M loss.
What is the solution? I think you go to the heavy hitting donors and ask them their opinion and their help. Do you want to keep football and hockey? Do you want a competitive hockey program (the reality football will simply not be competitive at Norwich)? If the donors want competitive hockey, they need to cough up more dough. While you can’t give these guys scholarships, you can make it that they don’t have to pay a cent for equipment and have up to date locker rooms.
The college has to right size their programs. The school needs a President that cares about the hockey.
PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
It actually happened in 2022 as well. Women lost to Castleton 1-0 in semis after the men lost to Babson 2-1 in quarterfinals the previous weekend.
That was the first year of the Tony Mariano Cup and Tony’s last year as AD.
Hockey was done by Feb. 26.
PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
No, but I think you’ll be hearing an announcement in the near future that might surprise some folks. (nothing to do with coaching staff).
Why not say it? It's obviously not a secret and in-house only if you know.
New league?
Bill-R-
Registered User
Welcome to the SUNYAC.
Lord_Zubin
Puck Flattsburgh!!!
They're a full member of the empire 8 once st John Fisher joins in 205-2026 they will have enough teams to form a conference and they are required by empire 8 bylaws to join
ok since I’m lazy who would be the other teams in that conference? Thanks!