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Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

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Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
When I used to deer hunt, I carried a Winchester .270 bolt action, and even that was probably overkill for whitetails at less than 100 yards - a lever-action .223 or .30-30 would've done just fine. It depends not only what game you're hunting, but how you're hunting it (sitting in a blind vs. chasing, short yardage vs. long, woods vs. plains, etc.), and what region you're in. IIRC, you typically hunt bears with cartridges in the .400s. Talk about recoil.
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Right. But if you're hunting bears, you see sure as **** don't want to reload.

Despite what Jim ask says, not everyone is a perfect shot and drops an animal on the first shot every time. :rolleyes:
 
Old Pio said:
In your opinion, which you are apparently anxious to make the law of the land, notwithstanding the Constitution.
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Holy ****. How could you not resist going after him for his ridiculous assertion that a 1/2 ton has use and could kill a bunch of people but since we train and license people they never get used for that. :D

It's not like we don't do that already
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

FreshFish said:
I've often thought that the best way to promote gun safety is to teach all children gun safety principles starting from an early age.

Your point about cars is a good parallel: where I grew up, drivers' education was a standard part of the secondary school curriculum.

It makes a lot of practical sense to have hands'-on gun safety training starting in elementary school. The sooner people learn how to use guns with proper respect, the better for us all. Waiting until people are adolescents is not a good idea, hormones make all adolescents partially crazy at times.

The world is full of dangerous, evil people. A populace well-trained in gun safety and gun basics is a good vaccination against some of the dangers we face.

I've seen a few searches that indicate that far more mass shootings have been prevented by citizens with legal guns than the shootings that do take place, it's just that they don't get widespread media attention.
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I don't necessarily disagree about early gun education for kids. Before it went bat sh*t crazy, the NRA had the Eddie Eagle program (maybe they still do). But let's not kid ourselves that familiarity with guns would have made the slightest difference last week. The shooter was, apparently, a prolific hunter and was well familiar with fire arms. And it trivializes the evil he perpetrated to ascribe his motives to "hormones."

The notion about "lack of widespread media coverage" for "far more" mass shootings prevented by armed civilians sounds like NRA propaganda to me and would require independent confirmation (not to mention definition of terms) to convince me. It sounds like the same old refrain: if people were armed, they could shoot the bad guy and prevent a tragedy. This theory is repeatedly espoused by people who simply refuse to concede the possibility of a bad outcome. Anybody anxious to open fire in a high school cafeteria during lunch?
 
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dxmnkd316 said:
Right. But if you're hunting bears, you see sure as **** don't want to reload.

Despite what Jim ask says, not everyone is a perfect shot and drops an animal on the first shot every time. :rolleyes:
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And so that is a reason to have slightly modified military weapons for open use?!? Because you don't always hit on the first shot?!? JFC do you read what you're typing? If you miss a shot on a bear and he charges you I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect you to drop the rifle and use your sidearm! Considering people here in Alaska have no problem dropping grizzlies with sidearms while hiking, I'm sure it's manageable.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Old Pio said:
I don't disagree. But let's not kid ourselves that familiarity with guns would have made the slightest difference last week. The shooter was, apparently, a prolific hunter and was well familiar with fire arms. And the notion about "lack of widespread media coverage" for "far more" mass shootings prevented by armed civilians sounds like NRA propaganda to me and would require independent confirmation to convince me. It sounds like the same old refrain: if people were armed, they could shoot the bad guy and prevent a tragedy. Anybody anxious to open fire in a high school cafeteria?
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Yeah, I've become very squeamish when I hear the "Arm everyone to the teeth" idea.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

dxmnkd316 said:
Yeah, I've become very squeamish when I hear the "Arm everyone to the teeth" idea.
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While it's certainly possible that if some teacher in the cafeteria last week was armed and saw what was about to happen and gotten off a round, that could have ended the threat. However, I've never heard of any advocate of that position admitting that there would also be a chance of hitting somebody's daughter in the face instead of the shooter. It's this magical thinking, that nothing bad can happen, that irritates the bejesus out of me.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

I'm OK with off-duty officers armed in schools. But never anyone who isn't trained law enforcement.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

dxmnkd316 said:
I'm OK with off-duty officers armed in schools. But never anyone who isn't trained law enforcement.
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This.

Training is everything with guns. Cannot stress that enough. Safety, situational, laws concerning guns....everything falls under training.
 
Jimjamesak said:
And so that is a reason to have slightly modified military weapons for open use?!? Because you don't always hit on the first shot?!? JFC do you read what you're typing? If you miss a shot on a bear and he charges you I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect you to drop the rifle and use your sidearm! Considering people here in Alaska have no problem dropping grizzlies with sidearms while hiking, I'm sure it's manageable.
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So can I use a semi auto shotgun, what about lever action guns
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

dxmnkd316 said:
Yeah, I've become very squeamish when I hear the "Arm everyone to the teeth" idea.
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I'm reminded of an old samurai adage: "the sword in the scabbard is a jewel beyond compare" or something along those lines.

One close to ideal outcome might well be that most people own a gun or two and every one that does, knows how to care for it and use it properly. However, except for hunting or target shooting, no one uses those guns, and certainly not to harm other people.

One of the most important features of a deterrant is that it actually does deter, which means it is rarely if ever used.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Old Pio said:
The notion about "lack of widespread media coverage" for "far more" mass shootings prevented by armed civilians sounds like NRA propaganda to me and would require independent confirmation (not to mention definition of terms) to convince me. It sounds like the same old refrain: if people were armed, they could shoot the bad guy and prevent a tragedy.
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The refrain seems more to be "when people are armed, bad guys are more cautious." That doesn't make them any less bad, it merely makes them more careful.

and maybe the bad guys attack people with swords or axes instead of guns. Their victims are just as dead either way. :(



I've read articles in which the authors actually did scour local news stories to find examples of people preventing mass shootings before there were mass deaths. That might still be "propaganda" even if it is true. BOTH "sides" base their "arguments" on anecdotal evidence and emotional appeals.


It would be helpful to have some reliable statistics. If there are 30 million gun owners and 3 mass shootings a year, on a % basis that is 0.000001%. Seems a bit extreme to adopt draconian measures that won't stop bad guys anyway.

The underlying issue in every single one of these cases is not gun ownership, it is mental health or the lack thereof.
 
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dxmnkd316 said:
Except you can't count just mass murders.
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I disagree. If not for mass murders, there would be very few calls for gun control. If gun control advocates did not have mass murders to discuss, they'd have to focus on the onesie-twosie crimes, which could just as easily been committed with a knife, axe, hammer, etc. I can almost imagine a world where a magical gun control law prevents mass shootings, but not where it eliminates murder entirely.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Brenthoven said:
Training is everything with guns. Cannot stress that enough. Safety, situational, laws concerning guns....everything falls under training.
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The gun owners I know are responsible and well-versed in safety. They are actually a lot more freaked out about irresponsible gun owners, since they're the ones who are far more likely to run into them at ranges, out hunting, etc.

Gun culture is very much an urban/rural split. In most of the geographical area of the country guns are an unremarkable part of life. In cities, guns are bizarre. Seems like an instance in which state and local law should vary to reflect local culture. The Second Amendment overlay is a ruse (a very profitable one), and it's unfortunate because it is so inflexible. And of course it strongly plays into the victim culture that sees any law as tyrannical.
 
Re: Nice Plant #7: Get me off of this planet

Didn't the gun control push really start after the assassinations of Dr. King and Sen. Kennedy?
 
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